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Comments Welcome on Business International.

If you worked for Business International in the 1980s or with Barack Obama at NYPIRG in 1984-85, feel free to leave comments here.

Ugh (mail):
And then...Kevin Bacon!
11.2.2008 5:44pm
Eric Muller (www):
Who would have imagined that the October Surprise would come in November? Or that it'd appear as a blog post at the Volokh Conspiracy?
11.2.2008 5:59pm
RSH (mail):
"...had substantial SDS ties in the 1960s"
"After graduating from Columbia in 1983"

My god! The evidence against Obama is simply overwhelming!
11.2.2008 6:08pm
JB:
So a mainstream business-oriented firm, which had ties closer than other businesses* to the nonviolent side of Weather Underground 40 years ago, hired a college graduate who shortly thereafter left for other jobs.

This kind of post, coming from the same guy who wrote the cogent and brilliant expose of Obama's national community service requirements plan, is sad.




*The cardinal value of the connection says little about the ordinal value--how close were those connections
11.2.2008 6:12pm
Ugh (mail):
But I agree with Jim, Obama's substantial ties to SIDS is troubling, as my sister's about to give birth to her sec-- oh wait, SDS, not SIDS. Um, fnck, I don't even know what SDS is, let's consult TehGazoogel...oh.

Verdict: Stick to trusts and estates Jim.
11.2.2008 6:14pm
Asher (mail):
Professor Volokh, aren't you ashamed to let these guys post this sort of crap on your site? Maybe you could lock Profs. Lindgren and Zywicki out until after the election. I don't think they can handle it.
11.2.2008 6:16pm
GMUSOL05:
Remember when it was the liberal professors who were supposed to be the irrational nuts?
11.2.2008 6:18pm
AlanDownunder (mail):
Are you trying to suggest that Obama was right about Vietman like he was about Iraq?
11.2.2008 6:24pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
Apparently the 'bots have never heard of networking. Think of it as interlocking directorships, the fact that CFR members are also members of other similar groups, and so on.

In any case, if anyone wants to do something that's more resistant to the 'bots, send this list to all your friends. About the only counter-argument the 'bots have been able to come up with that list are logical fallacies.
11.2.2008 6:30pm
RSH (mail):
About the only counter-argument the 'bots have been able to come up with that list are logical fallacies.


So faulty logic doesn't weaken an argument? That's quite a novel idea there, 24ahead.
11.2.2008 6:35pm
ignoramus:
What is SDS? I frequent this site often, but not enough to read every single piece by all the authors. If SDS was mentioned in an earlier piece, I'm not going to take the time to mine through all the posts. Please spell it out for those less educated.
Thanks.
11.2.2008 6:35pm
Jed S-A:
In the 1960s, my mother was involved in radical liberal protests of the Vietnam War. In the early 1980s, I was born. Now I'm voting for Obama.

Let's blame Obama for this too, shall we?
11.2.2008 6:43pm
Jed S-A:
In the 1960s, my mother was involved in radical liberal protests of the Vietnam War. In the early 1980s, I was born. Now I'm voting for Obama.

Let's blame Obama for this too, shall we?
11.2.2008 6:43pm
Brooks Lyman (mail):
Ignoramus -

See the following Wikipedia link for info on the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society):
11.2.2008 6:47pm
Brooks Lyman (mail):
Can't seem to get the URL to show up, but go to Wikipedia and search for: Students for a Democratic Society (1960 organization)
11.2.2008 6:54pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
I hate to have a part in linking to WP, but here it is.

Also see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Klonsky
11.2.2008 7:13pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
Also see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Klonsky


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingnut_(politics)
11.2.2008 7:17pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
I actually find posts like this to be meaningful and helpful. I see it as an indicator of the level of pessimism inside the McCain campaign. It's a lot like watching Intrade, where McCain has moved from 12 to 17 and back to 12, in the last five days.
11.2.2008 7:18pm
Charles Chapman (mail) (www):
If you worked for Business International in the 1980s or with Barack Obama at NYPIRG in 1984-85, feel free to leave comments here.
I'm sorry, but per the above didn't all of the previous posters realize that they were not supposed to post? Only those who "worked for Business International in the 1980s or with Barack Obama at NYPIRG in 1984-85," and could presumably support Prof. Lindgren's thesis, were "free to leave comments here." Shame on you.
11.2.2008 7:19pm
Cornellian (mail):
It might help if you explain what "SDS" stands for. I wasn't around in the 1960s and have no idea what you're talking about.
11.2.2008 7:20pm
Oren:
Yeah, being part of an organization possibly tied to the SDS -- group which advocated non-violent resistance to the blatant racism, sexism and militarism of 60's USA -- that's a real blot.
11.2.2008 7:20pm
EH (mail):
Apparently the 'bots have never heard of networking.

"'Bots?" Something tells me you're not talking about automating self-aggrandizing blog comments.
11.2.2008 7:24pm
Charles Chapman (mail) (www):
Oh, and I want to compliment Prof. Lindgren on the brilliant tactic of: (1) not allowing comments on the substantive post; and (2) allowing comments only on a separate, "one-liner" post. That way if any other blog or new organization links to Prof. Lindgren's substantive post and argument (i.e., "Obama’s first fulltime employer, Business International, had substantial SDS ties in the 1960s"), they won't pick up or link to any comments the question the validity of Prof. Lindgren's reasoning, or any other dissenting comments. Well done!
11.2.2008 7:27pm
Smokey:
For all the lawyers here, please explain this hypothetical:

Suppose Obama is deliberately hiding his birth certificate because releasing it would lead to proof of foreign birth [calm down, libs, and don't get the vapors. I'm just asking the question because I'm curious].

How would the legal system handle it if, once sworn into office, it was proven that a candidate was not a U.S. citizen?
11.2.2008 7:30pm
pmorem (mail):
I really hope the 'bots get de-funded after the election.

If not, then things could turn pretty grim.
11.2.2008 7:33pm
Charles Chapman (mail) (www):
And in other equally compelling and persuasive news, Joe "The Plumber" Now Questioning Obama's Loyalty To America.

I'm looking forward to the day Joe "The Plumber" is invited to joint The Volokh Conspiracy as a co-conspirator.
11.2.2008 7:34pm
Mark Maps (mail):
The level of commentary observed here is absurdly combative for an anecdotal blog entry. Perhaps the Obama-blog-cops are out in force today?

I find the connection between Obama, SDS and then Ayers in later life to be fascinating. Not necessarily determinative of anything about him presently, but fascinating nonetheless.
11.2.2008 7:40pm
Oren:

How would the legal system handle it if, once sworn into office, it was proven that a candidate was not a U.S. citizen?

(Disclaimer, I have no idea, I'm just guessing)
After having been sworn in, it would seem to require impeachment.

More interesting is, before he's sworn in but after the House of Representatives has certified the electoral count.
11.2.2008 7:41pm
Biff:
Only those who "worked for Business International in the 1980s or with Barack Obama at NYPIRG in 1984-85," and could presumably support Prof. Lindgren's thesis, were "free to leave comments here."


I worked there in the 80s. I personally saw Obama kill an unborn baby with his bare hands, and then dedicate it to Allah. He asked me to snag him a fake birth certificate, but I patriotically refused.
11.2.2008 7:42pm
hearsay (mail):
Posner - today's blog with Becker:
Anyone in a public position--and this includes business and academic leaders as well as politicians--cannot indulge a taste for candor or altruism and expect to be successful at his job.
.

Ayers was getting an education degree a few blocks from Obama while Obama 'hid out in the Columbia library like a monk.' Probably smart because one of Ayers friends blew up a vehicle associated with transporting the South African rugby team and is still in jail. A commenter on a blogpost months ago re: Dreams of my Father reported working at Business International when Obama did, said Obama didn't socialize with his peers, worked faxing tip sheets and wasn't the investment banker he says he was.
11.2.2008 7:51pm
YabbaDabba:
How is Lindgren a tenured anything? The judgment he exercises in his political dabbling is so beyond moronic, pathetic and juvenile that it kills me that some institution is actually paying this guy money to think and speak.
11.2.2008 7:56pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
smokey:

Suppose Obama is deliberately hiding his birth certificate


Suppose Smokey went to the trouble of keeping up with the news:

State declares Obama birth certificate genuine

HONOLULU (AP) — State officials say there's no doubt Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said Friday she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.
11.2.2008 7:57pm
loki13 (mail):
Smokey &Oren,
A detailed analysis of what would happen (and why the non-citizen thing is friggin' hard) can be found here.

In brief- there are many problems; your best bet is to sue the Secty. of State (Rice) to enjoin her from certifying the results (before that, you have other problems, including standing and ripeness). You still have issues with justiciability (esp. political doctrine).

And Biden would become President pursuant to the 22d Am.
11.2.2008 7:58pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
pmorem:

I really hope the 'bots get de-funded after the election.


Speaking of astroturf, what ever happened to McCain's effort to get people to spread his talking points on blogs?

That worked out well.
11.2.2008 8:00pm
Passing By:
You know, I always wondered about Prof. Bernstein's year at the University of Michigan. Now I know the truth... It was a SDS / "Weather Underground" pilgrimage!

I wonder if there are any pictures of Bernstein eating or drinking at Dominick's, the restaurant in the shadow of the law quad where Tom Hayden and friends used to hang out.... Or if he read the Michigan Daily, the student paper Hayden once edited. I mean, his presence at the same university is evidence enough of his ties, but add things like that and his protests will be implausible even to his most sympathetic defenders.

I hope Lindgren is on top of this.
11.2.2008 8:07pm
darrenm:
I am astonished at the level of determined and willful ignorance regarding our probable next President of the United States. First, any critism is regarded as 'racist'. Asking direct questions is off limits. Now any curiousity about Obama's past at all is verboten.
11.2.2008 8:12pm
sun:
Curiosity about Obama's past is not verboten. I am an Obama supporter who'd be interested in knowing what he did at Business International, or what the company was all about, if anyone actually has some concrete information on that topic. What people consider dim-witted (not taboo, just laughable) is the implication that the "revelation" of n-degree links between Obama and some figure or movement reviled by the right is in any way meaningful.

And I would love to see a similar expose on Lindgren's past--I have no doubt an analogous "gotcha" narrative could be constructed for just about anyone, including you and me and every political figure in the world.
11.2.2008 8:21pm
Asher (mail):
And I would love to see a similar expose on Lindgren's past--I have no doubt an analogous "gotcha" narrative could be constructed for just about anyone, including you and me and every political figure in the world.

I, for instance, read The Communist Manifesto at the age of 8 or 9 and thought it made a lot of sense.
11.2.2008 8:33pm
SecurityGeek:
Dear Prof. Volokh and the other "Editors"-

The anti-Obama insanity is destroying this blog. Have you decided what the unifying theme of this blog will be after Tuesday? Will we once again be impressed by thoughtful libertarian postings of areas within the expertise of the writers (like, say, the law?) or are we gonna play six-degrees-of-Obama for the next eight years?

Just wondering. This was fun for a while, but, seriously, read the above posting. Shark has been jumped.

Thank you,
A Loyal Reader

PS Prof. Lindgren, did you know that Obama represented Illinois in the US Senate? Do you know who else lived in Illinois? Al Capone! Look into it, cross post on the National Review, and maybe you can be a talking head on Hannity if you're lucky!
11.2.2008 8:35pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):

In the 1960s, my mother was involved in radical liberal protests of the Vietnam War. In the early 1980s, I was born. Now I'm voting for Obama.

Let's blame Obama for this too, shall we?



No, but your mother was way outta line.
11.2.2008 8:36pm
TyWebb:
Shorter Jim Lindgren: The thought of a black person being in charge of the United States frightens me and gives me a sense of vague unease. I can't say this out loud, and I probably can't even rationalize it to myself, so I attempt to gin up fear through a paranoid set of connections that reads like the flesh-and-blood defense. I should be ashamed, and so should the institution that employs me.
11.2.2008 8:37pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
sun:

I am an Obama supporter who'd be interested in knowing what he did at Business International


This is not a complete answer, but here are a couple of statements about that era. NYT interviewed his supervisor:

Cathy Lazere, his supervisor at Business International, described him as self-assured and bright. “He was very mature and more worldly than other people — on the surface kind of laid back, but kind of in control,” she said. “He had a good sense of himself, which I think a lot of kids at that age don’t.”


NPR found a colleague who said this:

he was very smooth and smart and together, and I was 23 … I felt like a human train wreck next to him
11.2.2008 8:38pm
CiarandDenlane (mail):
Here I am, a genuinely undecided voter (barely leaning Obama last week, barely leaning McCain yesterday, back to Obama today, who knows Tuesday) in a swing state, clicking on a link that requests information, and instead of information I find boomerang snark and vitriol. Can y'all let those of us who actually are so stupid or congenitally indecisive that we want to know how the chicken was prepared read the menu notes in peace?
11.2.2008 8:38pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
And I would love to see a similar expose on Lindgren's past

What an interesting comment. Does the BHO campaign have secret dossiers on their opponents?

Could Lindgren do a reverse DNS on the comments above and let us know if he finds anything interesting? For instance, lots of people from Chicago or DC?

As for jukeboxgrad's comment, the state only said he cert was on file, it didn't say he was born there. Under HI law, those who are born outside HI but whose parents live there can get certs.
11.2.2008 8:39pm
pmorem (mail):
or are we gonna play six-degrees-of-Obama for the next eight years?

No point in even holding the first election, since he's already won his second term.
11.2.2008 8:41pm
pmorem (mail):
jukebox, I'm pretty sure you're not one of the 'bots. Same goes for Oren. Even without knowing you, I'm pretty sure you're real people doing this on your own time.

There are a number of people, particularly some of the most strident, who are somewhere between sockpuppet and 'bot. My understanding is that the Obama camp maintains a fair number of people on the payroll to monitor blogs and oppose anything that challenges Obama.
11.2.2008 8:44pm
Asher (mail):
Could Lindgren do a reverse DNS on the comments above and let us know if he finds anything interesting? For instance, lots of people from Chicago or DC?

I know, the only people who could have any issue with this post are Obama workers. They're so scared of this shocking story derailing his tenuous margin (only three points in the latest Fox poll!) that they're trying to shout Prof. Lindgren down with their comments. You know what I think? I think even if the commenters should turn out to live all over the place, they've still got to be Obama workers. Probably part of his nefarious ACORN-infested GOTV organization.
11.2.2008 8:51pm
Eli Rabett (www):
Cripes, another post where Sarcasto does all the comments.
11.2.2008 9:02pm
Charles Chapman (mail) (www):
I know, the only people who could have any issue with this post are Obama workers.

I'm one of the people who had an issue with this post. Anyone who bothered to look at my primary webpage, linked at each of my posts, and still thinks I
I'm an "Obama worker" is delusional. Mine is a webpage that would get me insulted and banned at a place like the Daily Kos.

You don't have to be an Obama worker, or a "bot," to find Prof. Lindgren's "reasoning" to be not only faulty, but also desperate and insulting to one's intelligence.
11.2.2008 9:04pm
sun (mail):
24Ahead, my mention of Lindgren's past was meant as a suggestion that he examine the beam in his own eye before condemning the mote in Obama's. Perhaps it was too indirect a suggestion for this audience. I am sorry that you found it threatening. If you would be comforted by learning more about where and who I am, go ahead and email me. (I don't work for Obama's campaign, not even as a volunteer, although I have made donations to his campaign.)
11.2.2008 9:12pm
Jim Rhoads (mail):
I have no problem whatever with BHO's articulated relationships with left-leaning causes. These relationships are all described in his (two) memoirs.

But he is distancing himself from all of those relationships now that he realizes he cannot possibly be elected by a centrist nation if he were not portrayed as essentially a mainstream centrist. It is this "distancing" that is troubling to many potential supporters. If he were honest about his past relationships (e.g. Ayers and Wright) and explained forthrightly how he has outgrown their influence he would be much more appealing to me as a candidate.
11.2.2008 9:17pm
winstontwo (mail):
What a weak and pathetic attempt to smear Obama.

The next 8 years are going to be very long and difficult for you, Sir.
11.2.2008 9:28pm
Donny:
One advantage of all this paranoid conservative hand-wringing over Obama's hidden radicalism, etc.,is that the standards for evaluating his presidency will start of artificially low among the Right. If he lives up to his moderate, pragmatic persona and promises, he will have easily repudiated everything the Right argued.

So, two years from now, I'll expect to open VC and see all the Conspirators happily surprised at Obama's moderate policies. (Or will you criticize him on some entirely different baseline without realizing how wrong you were now? I suppose time will tell.)
11.2.2008 9:28pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
24:

the state only said he cert was on file, it didn't say he was born there


Right. That's why the report said this:

State officials say there's no doubt Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.


By the way, the birth certificate can be seen here. Better check the kerning. More on this subject here.

Under HI law, those who are born outside HI but whose parents live there can get certs


Really? Prove it.
11.2.2008 9:42pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
pmorem:

Even without knowing you, I'm pretty sure you're real people doing this on your own time.


I guess I'm going to have to send you a snapshot of Soros handing me a bag full of cash. Excuse me, I think that's him at the door.

My understanding is that the Obama camp maintains a fair number of people on the payroll to monitor blogs and oppose anything that challenges Obama.


I'm really pissed that you knew this and didn't tell me. Think of all the money I could have made.

I hope you'll tell us the source of your "understanding." By the way, my "understanding" is that McCain tortures puppies and rapes nuns.
11.2.2008 9:42pm
Syd Henderson (mail):
This and the following post by Lindgren are idiotic. The SDS had chapters at lots of colleges in the 60s when Obama was a child and this company's connection with the SDS, which is hardly remarkable, also occurred when Obama was a child.

I work by choice at a college that was involved in a famous desegregation case. Does that mean they hired me because I'm white?
11.2.2008 9:43pm
Asher (mail):
I'm one of the people who had an issue with this post. Anyone who bothered to look at my primary webpage, linked at each of my posts, and still thinks I
I'm an "Obama worker" is delusional. Mine is a webpage that would get me insulted and banned at a place like the Daily Kos.


You couldn't see the sarcasm in my post? How daft are you?
11.2.2008 9:46pm
wolfefan (mail):
Hi -

I'm sorry, Prof. Lindgren, that you haven't gotten a lot of response to your request although I agree with the (milder) comments that your post wasn't particularly well written if your intent was to garner thoughtful responses.

You've written elsewhere that you've probably voted for Obama in the past more often than anyone else on this blog. Could you say a little more about that? Usually researching candidates and learning about their connections is easier at the local level than at the national. When I was involved in local politics in Ft. Wayne, IN I had a basic knowledge of the inter-relationships and backgrounds of the major players, although I was minor in the extreme. What kind of due diligence did you perform previous to Obama's presidential candidacy? Did none of these kinds of issues arise in the local context?
11.2.2008 9:47pm
Former subscriber:
Tonight is clearly the night to unsubscribe to the VC. I'll miss some good posts, but it will be worth it never to see one like this again.
11.2.2008 10:02pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
jukeboxgrad: this thread is supposed to be about what's stated above. However, this post and the link following "state law linked from here" explain everything for you. The AP report above was apparently jumping to a conclusion, assuming that if his cert is on file then he was born there. That's a false conclusion. See the link and what it links to; everything is not as settled as "fact checkers" would have you believe.

However, any further discussion can be had by leaving a comment at my link, and I urge everyone not to waste time on this issue but instead do something effective.
11.2.2008 10:07pm
Chris Bell (mail) (www):
I work for a major international law firm. I know that we work with some unsavory characters. As an associate, I have little to no control over any of this.

If I ever run for office, can I expect to see posts like this one about me?
11.2.2008 10:26pm
Chris Bell (mail) (www):
CiarandDenlane:
Here I am, a genuinely undecided voter (barely leaning Obama last week, barely leaning McCain yesterday, back to Obama today, who knows Tuesday) in a swing state, clicking on a link that requests information, and instead of information I find boomerang snark and vitriol. Can y'all let those of us who actually are so stupid or congenitally indecisive that we want to know how the chicken was prepared read the menu notes in peace?
There is another post where the comment section is turned off, but a link states that comments should be left here. That is probably why the comments seem out of place. They make little sense without reading the other post.
11.2.2008 10:29pm
Light Hearted (mail):
"A commenter...reported working at Business International when Obama did, said Obama didn't socialize with his peers, worked faxing tip sheets and wasn't the investment banker he says he was."

I'm guessing, these days, that's a plus, not a minus...
11.2.2008 10:29pm
LogicalSC (mail):
Critical thinking is not a strong skill for the followers of the "Chicago Dope".

Obama was just unlucky to keep turning up in the same law firms, neighborhoods, businesses and schools as this bunch of crazy American-hating loons such as the mumbers of the SDS. So Obama and Michele interned at the same law firm as William Ayers wife, Bernadine Doern, coincidence. It is just a coincidence that Obama and Ayers lived on the same block while Obama attended college then by a miracle William Ayers ends up 15 years later living two houses down from Obama in a neighborhood 1500 miles away from Boston. And that was after Obama got selected, a young inexperienced know-nothing, to head Ayers 155 million dollar debacle where Obama failed miserably.

Obama has to be the most unlucky man alive to keep getting followed by these crazy loons everywhere he goes. I mean who wants to be followed around by a group of people like Ayers, Doern, and Klonsky who planted bombs in schools, police offices and dance halls, seriously planned for re-education camps in the Western states and the need to exterminate upto 25 million Americans who wouldn't renounce capitalism. Doern and Ayers especially loved Charles Manson after he sent his followers on the drug-crazed murder spree in California. They advised their followers to start the revolution by going home and murdering their parents. Obama hangs with some freaky people, but surely doesn't like them or anything. I guess he stays centered by his "faith",....Opps, sorry about that.

Obama says he was going to these people to get opposing viewpoints, but can any of this -bots please provide the list of people Obama went to for his non-Soviet views?

Two things stand out about Obama:
1) After the collapse of the Soviet Union showed the utter failure of communism, why in the h*ll was Obama and these "intellectual" morons still agitating for this policy disaster?
2) Do his supporters not care that Obama flat out lied in front of Hillary during their debate when he said that William Ayers was "just a guy in the neighborhood"? What do you make of that lie? Obama must have known that Ayers was toxic or he wouldn't have felt the need to misdirect his lovers in that debate?
11.2.2008 10:43pm
LT:
It's posts (and subsequent comment sections) like these that are sapping my desire to read VC. Partisan rumormonging can't be the kind of content this blog was intended to carry.

Prof. Volokh, please, don't allow this formerly excellent blog to descend into over-politicized irrelevancy.
11.2.2008 10:47pm
Chico's Bail Bonds (mail):
I almost summered for Sidley Austin. Thank goodness I turned that down. I was so naive, I did not know that it was just a front for a 60's radical conspiracy to destroy America.
11.2.2008 10:53pm
GMCG:
This is so sad. SDS just is not a live enemy, nor in historical perspective is what they advanced. Obama is too young for it to have been a live concern for him. This is a form of guilt by association might have been persuasive, or even relevant, to voters in the Ford administration. Today, it's a farce.
11.2.2008 11:00pm
Splunge:
Lindgren, apparently you hit a nerve. Lots of hysterical reaction from the Obots above, mostly along the typical dismissive oh that's just some weird coincidence you get when murder suspects try to explain away the gun in their car, or the prissy threats this blog sucks, I'm just going to take my eyeballs and go home so beloved among intellectual fascists.

I find it (your observation) a small note of distaste added to Obama the man. The SDS were a bunch of narcissist fuckpigs and Bernadine Dohrn was, and maybe still is, an antisocial inhuman wretch. You'd have to have a strong stomach to come within 10 miles of them and their associates. It's not unlike someone volunteering to do legal work for the Aryan Nation, or become friends with someone who, in the 60s, advocated sterilizing the unfit. Blech.
11.2.2008 11:10pm
PC:
LogicalSC, I think you are on to something. Maybe you should start an 11/08 Truth Movement.
11.2.2008 11:12pm
LogicalSC (mail):
GMCG
Can't redirect that your candidate grew up and embraced the people who to this day have no qualms about their activities, only that they weren't successful. They openly admit that they they are still believers and have only changed tactics, not goals. Ayers was in Venezuela just last year praising Chavez and his use of education programs to forment "revolution". Rational people know that Marxism\Socialism\Communism is a disaster, history has proven it but if what you say is true, that what they advanced is not a live enemy, then why are they still agitating for it and why does Obama use the same words and methods and promote the same ideas? Tax justice, civilian security force, spread the wealth.

And Obama has been right there at every turn. An amazing bit of bad luck for Obama, don't you think.

Vote for Obama if you must, but be honest about what you are voting to implement.
11.2.2008 11:18pm
Bama 1L:
Smokey, you asked about the election of a non-citizen as President. I will speak more broadly to the election of an individual who does not meet the Art. II, § 1 requirements to be elected President (natural-born citizen aged 35 years).

It appears that the "legal system" of courts has no way to get involved in this matter. The matter will always be unripe or nonjusticiable.

Determining whether someone is constitutionally eligible to hold office seems to lie within the purview of Congress. (There is a clearer statement of this principle with regard to the House and Senate requirements.) If it were discovered that the President did not meet the requirements, Congress could impeach the person following the normal constitutional process. If the defect were discovered earlier:
1. Voters could refuse to vote for the ineligible candidate.
2. Electors could refuse to vote for the ineligible candidate.
3. Members of Congress could follow the procedure for questioning electoral ballots.
4. The President of the Senate (Vice President) could refuse to announce the ineligible candidate as having won or even received any votes, throwing the election to the House. This could eventually result in a losing candidate being elected President or the successful Vice Presidential candidate succeeding to the higher office if the House deadlocked.
5. The Chief Justice could refuse to administer the oath of office.

It might be possible to enjoin some of these officials, but I think you would eventually end up with Congress choosing the President or the Vice President succeeding, depending on the scenario.

So this is a problem for the political system, not the legal system.
11.2.2008 11:19pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
It is hard to imagine a republican with similar associations, coincidental or not, getting by with such little concern.
Look at Reagan: Still hammered for being racist because he gave a speech at a fair in Mississippi which was near a place some civil rights had been violated.
Now, suppose we had Reagan rooming with Bull Connor in the service, or as a youngster working with George Wallace on a welfare program.
Think he'd be get the same pass the One is getting?

Many of Obama's supporters know exactly what they're doing. But they know the rest of us wouldn't like it. So they lie, dissemble, pretend certain issues are off limits.
11.2.2008 11:20pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
BHO was 19 when the Weathermen killed three people: two cops and a security guard. He was a little older when a protest was held in NYC during which someone was blinded by acid thrown by members of the group: zombietime.com/obama_and_the_weather_underground

That doesn't mean he was involved, but he probably knew about those since they were in the news at the time. And, in any case, the weatherman violence is more recent than BHO would like you to believe.

The comments by LogicalSC above are good, and the reader might consider what we'd know about someone who goes to Chamber of Commerce mixers all day. One might assume some affinity with the CofC. Likewise with BHO and his long line of links to radicals, racists, convicted felons, those under FBI investigation, those with alleged organized crime links, and so on. Like he said, the suburbs aren't for him.
11.2.2008 11:20pm
DRJ (mail):
I drop in at Volokh every now and then. When did it turn into a forum for Obama supporters to attack any comment they don't like?
11.2.2008 11:27pm
Jeffersonian22 (mail):
It's all just so, so cozy, no? These same people, same groups keep popping up around Obama.

And whoever said the CAC was a complete failure isn't looking at it properly...it burnished a lot of resumes and got a lot of money handed to people who would be important later on. People who could and would help. Thanks all to the guy who put the Chairman in his position.
11.2.2008 11:27pm
PC:
People are getting close to The Truth, but they need a few more links to have everything revealed. I would suggest that anyone who wants to know about the real Barack HUSSEIN Obama should explore his links to the Eye of Providence and the Argenteum Astrum. If you are really lucky you can get a reporter ask Obama about the Golden Apple. If Obama does not answer the question and then leaves the room, you will know you are on to something.
11.2.2008 11:30pm
Passerby:
seriously, can the Conspirators go back to posting about legal issues and stop causing me to doubt their intelligence?
11.2.2008 11:30pm
Jeffersonian22 (mail):
Now, suppose we had Reagan rooming with Bull Connor in the service, or as a youngster working with George Wallace on a welfare program. Think he'd be get the same pass the One is getting?

Reagan once visited a cemetary with some dead SS soldiers. I won't even attempt to describe the tumult that ensued.
11.2.2008 11:34pm
PC:
Reagan once visited a cemetary with some dead SS soldiers.

Whoa. Zombie Nazis?
11.2.2008 11:35pm
hanoi paris hilton (mail):
"Of all the firms in all the world, Obama had to walk into the one..."

How come nobody caught the reference to Bogart's first line to Ingrid Bergman in Casablanca, "Of all the lousy gin-joints in the world, you had to walk into this one...?"

I just got invited by my next-door neighbors, academic bien-pensants of the finest order, to hang out with them, and a crowd of like-minded Obamazoids, Tuesday evening to watch the pre-coronation of The One. Of course I accepted, "til the fat lady sings and all.

There's a great Australian movie from the late 1970s, directed by Bruce Bereford, about exactly the preferred outcome of such an invitation, called "Don's Party". Go Google it.

The sole non-lefty couple there, however, are total complete dorks. Unhip beyond imagination. Maybe I'm that too now. What else could explain it, except maybe a cerebral infarction?

The Oz Labor Party proceeds to lose the election. Everybody goes berserk. Based on a true-life adventure (1969).
11.2.2008 11:35pm
DaveS (mail):

My god! The evidence against Obama is simply overwhelming! --RSH
Yes, all several hundred proven ties to Ayers, Dohrn, et al, are quite circumstantial. Surely there is nothing there.
11.2.2008 11:45pm
Dave N (mail):
Those who read the VC regularly know my general views--and they are not pro-Obama.

That said, this is one of the stranger posts I have read. How Obama's first job out of Columbia is relevant to much of anything is a mystery to me. That his employer may have some kind of tenuous tie with SDS is irrelevant.
11.2.2008 11:48pm
RSH (mail):

Yes, all several hundred proven ties to Ayers, Dohrn, et al, are quite circumstantial. Surely there is nothing there.


Pretty much, yeah, apart from your rather idiosyncratic definition of the word "ties." And "hundred." My, that was easy! Next question?
11.2.2008 11:52pm
fishbane (mail):
I don't usually snark at authors here, but lordy. This is getting into Pam "Atlas shrugs" whatsherface territory (She of the "Obama was Malcom X's lovechild and really born in Canada" fame). I'm not sure it would even fly at some of the saner edgy Republican leaning partisan blogs. And that's saying something, as even the ones I like are getting pretty nutty.
11.2.2008 11:56pm
RSH (mail):
Oh, and another question- if, as seems increasingly likely, Obama becomes our next President, do you folks plan to carry on with the whole "THE ONE" thing? Because it is breathtakingly snide and childish.
11.2.2008 11:56pm
David Warner:
Chapman,

"any comments the question the validity of Prof. Lindgren's reasoning"

Still waiting for one of those. I might be waiting a long time, since Lindgren doesn't offer any reasoning or even an argument in his post. It's just (another) data point.

Pretty clear by now that Obama is from the left. The more interesting question is where he's to. I like the trajectory as I see it.
11.3.2008 12:19am
David Warner:
sun,

"What people consider dim-witted (not taboo, just laughable) is the implication that the "revelation" of n-degree links between Obama and some figure or movement reviled by the right is in any way meaningful."

When the n is consistently this low, I'm not sure that shout downs are the optimal response, and I doubt that revulsion is the most relevant emotion about which to be concerned.
11.3.2008 12:28am
peter jackson (mail) (www):
To me the most astonishing issue right NOW, 36 freaking hours before the election, is that we're talking about these issues at all. This post should have occurred say, oh, one year ago, when this unknown freshman Senator was running for his party's nomination. I'm sure all this time the press thought they were doing the right thing on some level when they decided to run interference for Obama, but I think the fullness of time is going to demonstrate the opposite. Just because the man's elected doesn't mean any of these issues are going to go away. Once the mission is accomplished and Obama is in the Oval Office, the main imperative driving the mainstream media's silence and incuriosity about him will be gone. At some point the press will succumb to competitive pressures to sell papers and commercial air=time and revert to being the press again. What's going to happen when the "guy who lives in my neighborhood" turns out to have helped Obama write Dreams from my Father? What's going to happen when it becomes known that Obama collected more money from illegal campaign donations than McCain raised in total donations? What's going to happen when it's revealed that Obama attended Columbia under some embarrassing affirmative action criteria, or that he didn't actually attend Columbia at all? What if what little has been discovered about Senator Obama is merely the tip of the iceberg in terms of creepy political associations or, God forbid, illegal behavior? Then what?

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that any of these rumors or suspicions turns out to be true or untrue, or even that I believe they're true or untrue, and that's because in all honesty I have no idea. My complaint is that due to the mainstream media's self-dealing partisanship, none of us has any idea. We are going to elect a man President of the United States who right now remains 90% unvetted.

yours/
peter.
11.3.2008 12:28am
RSH (mail):

When the n is consistently this low, I'm not sure that shout downs are the optimal response, and I doubt that revulsion is the most relevant emotion about which to be concerned.


Mr. Warner, I'd hardly consider a gap of two decades with who knows how much turnover "low."

Loved you in Time Bandits, by the way.
11.3.2008 12:33am
PC:
When the n is consistently this low

The n can be surprisingly low depending on the network. I'm currently working with a company where one of the principals used to work for a company that I previously worked at (we never met before this project). That principal knows a very good friend of mine because they went to the same university. A company that shares the office space is working with a different company I did contract work for on a completely unrelated technology.

Then there was the time a former coworker from a company I was at a decade ago was working with the ex-girlfriend of the best man at my wedding. This was a link that went from the southwest to the west coast, back to the east coast.

I'd suggest reading up on small world networks if this sort of thing intrigues you. iirc, you can connect just about anyone in the world to anyone else in less than 6 steps. This number greatly decreases when you get into professional networks.
11.3.2008 12:42am
Camilla (mail):
In late 1991 or early 1992, I remember attending a Business International conference in Oakland, California. I was a far leftist back then and I don't remember how I got told to go there, but I did. It was the first big business conference I had ever set foot in. The topic was lifting the Vietnam trade embargo and at that time, it was a REALLY radical topic, something only the fringe left was involved in wanting to happen. FWIW, that's what I remember. I was amazed and kind of excited that they let a tie-dyed type like me even into the room with those suits who talked $50 million projects but I was a sort of a hippie lobbyist for normalizing ties with Vietnam at the time. Still am not sure how I got let in, but I was. In any case, I think that does establish a radical-antiwar-leftist tie to Big Business in just that one conference. The irony is, while Barack Obama was working with this firm to advocate this then-leftist cause, John McCain was coming onboard to the pro-Vietnam cause and later proved pivotal in getting the votes and providing the political cover so that Bill Clinton could sign off on lifting the trade embargo in early 1994.
11.3.2008 12:43am
RSH (mail):


When the n is consistently this low, I'm not sure that shout downs are the optimal response, and I doubt that revulsion is the most relevant emotion about which to be concerned.




Mr. Warner, I'd hardly consider a gap of two decades with who knows how much turnover "low."

Loved you in Time Bandits, by the way.


Excuse me, personnel turnover. Got a bit trigger-happy with the ctrl-backspace there. And to further clarify things, what's going on here isn't a "shout-down." No one's trying to drown you out, or forcibly exclude you from the discussion. No, this is just good old-fashioned ridicule.

My compliment still stands, however. And what about that part where the top of your head unhinges and a little saw comes out? Can you do that in real life or was that just a special effect? PLEASE, I MUST KNOW
11.3.2008 12:48am
PC:
Just to give folks an idea of how ridiculous these types of associations are, take a look at Arbusto Energy: Salem bin Laden, brother of Osama bin Laden, invested in Arbusto Energy when George W. Bush ran Arbusto. Does this mean that Bush is somehow linked to Osama bin Laden? No, but it's great fodder for the tin foil hat brigade.
11.3.2008 12:51am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
logical:

So Obama and Michele interned at the same law firm as William Ayers wife, Bernadine Doern, coincidence.


The fact that Dohrn worked there only tends to underline the fact that Ayers and Dohrn are now mainstream. Here are some facts about Sidley Austin:

Sidley Austin LLP … is one of the oldest law firms in the world. It is the sixth-largest U.S.-based corporate law firm with over 1,800 lawyers, annual revenues of more than one billion dollars, and offices in 16 cities worldwide… Its original predecessor firm was founded in 1866 and had Mary Todd Lincoln, the widow of President Abraham Lincoln, among its earliest clients.… As of 2006, it was the 9th largest law firm in the world (and 5th in the US) by revenue.


Not the kind of outfit that is likely to pal around with terrorists.

people like Ayers, Doern, and Klonsky who planted bombs in schools, police offices and dance halls


Show your proof that WUO ever planted bombs in "schools" or "dance halls."
--------------------------------------------------
aubrey:

It is hard to imagine a republican with similar associations, coincidental or not, getting by with such little concern.


McCain's friend Liddy was involved in multiple murder plots. IOKIYAR.
------------------------------
24:

BHO was 19 when the Weathermen killed three people: two cops and a security guard.


Show your proof.
---------------------------------------
pc:

Salem bin Laden, brother of Osama bin Laden, invested in Arbusto Energy when George W. Bush ran Arbusto.


And Pappy Bush was in a meeting with another bin Laden brother the morning of 9/11. In New York.
11.3.2008 1:10am
RSH (mail):

BHO was 19 when the Weathermen killed three people: two cops and a security guard.


He's technically correct on that one- three ex-Weathermen did stage a botched bank robbery that resulted in three deaths, in the same year Barack Hussein Khaled Sheik Mohammed Obama just happened to turn nineteen- which, when combined with his current age of 47 gives you 1947, the year of the Black Dahlia murder! Can BHKSMO prove he wasn't involved?
11.3.2008 1:18am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
rsh:

one- three ex-Weathermen


Exactly. The key part is "ex."

And if one of those guys does something bad tomorrow, that will be Obama's fault, too.
11.3.2008 1:28am
RSH (mail):

And if one of those guys does something bad tomorrow, that will be Obama's fault, too.


Well, duh, obviously. And what about his good pals, Hitler and Pol Pot? Why hasn't he denounced them?
11.3.2008 1:34am
David Warner:
RSH,

"Loved you in Time Bandits, by the way"

The closing credits put an appropriate cap on what was a singularly surreal experience for a ten-year-old.

Ridicule, shout down, whatever. I don't think that's a promising way to govern, unless you want to end up with Bush III. As much as I hate Dale Carnegie, he'd be a step up from the current political culture.
11.3.2008 1:52am
David Warner:
And I know, I know, Mommy! Lindgren did it!1!11!!!

I'm talking about how one best reacts to Lindgren and others with influence.
11.3.2008 1:56am
Asher (mail):
What's going to happen when it's revealed that Obama attended Columbia under some embarrassing affirmative action criteria, or that he didn't actually attend Columbia at all?

What? What did you just say? Again, if any of the sane administrators on this blog read these comments, could you give some consideration to revoking Lindgren and Zywicki's blogging privilges until Election Day? Your reputation just goes down the drain with stuff like this.
11.3.2008 3:00am
Charles Chapman (mail) (www):
What's going to happen when it's revealed that Obama attended Columbia under some embarrassing affirmative action criteria, or that he didn't actually attend Columbia at all?

What? What did you just say? Again, if any of the sane administrators on this blog read these comments, could you give some consideration to revoking Lindgren and Zywicki's blogging privilges until Election Day? Your reputation just goes down the drain with stuff like this.
The statement you object to was not made by Lindgren (or by Zywicki, for that matter), but by commentator Peter Jackson. I don't think it fair to blame Lindgren or Zywicki for a comment made by another person, much less to suggest that their blogging privileges be revoked.
11.3.2008 3:35am
arthur (mail):
With all of the talk abot both Obama's connections with th eradical leftist law firm Sidley &Austin, why hasn't anyone raised the 9/11 connection? It's a well known fact that Sidley &Austin's office in the World Trade Center was destroyed on 9/11. Almost as well known is tha the firm didn't need the space, which had come from he merger with Brown &Wood, since the mid-town office had enough room for the New York branch at that point in the 2001 recession. If fact, it's entirely plausible that the firm saved more on rent than the cost of the entire terror operation (estimated at a few hundred thousand dollars by the 9/11 commission). Is it irresponsible to investigate whether the firm put a former Summer associate, who NOT ONLY lived within two blocks of two known former terrorists, BUT ALSO had once been employed by a company that two decades earlier had connections to some non-violent demonstrators some of whom were friends of friends of violent deomnstrators, in charge of an operation to profit from a large-scale terror atack? It would be irresponsible not to. But the MSM hasn't even looked at it.
11.3.2008 7:15am
AlanDownunder (mail):
Obama is too young to be able to claim credit, by subsequent association with SDS, for being opposed to the Vietnam debacle in the way that he can claim credit for being opposed to the Iraq debacle.

This attempt to add lustre to his reputation for sober foreign policy judgment is highly unconvincing.
11.3.2008 7:17am
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Jeffersonian:
Ref Reagan and the Bitburg (I think) cemetery.
I am not aware of whether it is possible to go to a German WW II cemetery and not find some of the Waffen SS buried there. Despite their reputation, there weren't all that many of them compared to the Wehrmacht. So it's possible that a small cemetery might not have any Waffen SS interred there.
But not, absent some kind of formal arrangement, guaranteed.
So, presuming that Reagan went to a cemetery which was logistically available for a presidential visit and all that, the likelihood is there would have been SS guys there. The problem was that his handlers said he should find another place and he refused, and then gave a speech about how these guys are victims of the war, too. That might have been okay with Wehremacht guys. But, considering the enthusiasm with which the Schutzstaffeln (sp) threw themselves into their work, that piece didn't fly with a lot of folks. Now, I fully believe that the press would have tried to flay Reagan if he'd said nothing, or said something more appropriate. But republicans should remember that, although the press and the libs are going to misrepresent everything they say and mean, you may as well make them work for it and not give them a handy lever.
Many of the occupied countries generated enough SS recruits to come up with their very own SS divisions, Viking, Nordland, Charlemagne, and some others. So it would follow that those nations now would rather say mean things about an American president than recall some uncomfortable things about themselves.
11.3.2008 7:43am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
arthur:

It would be irresponsible not to. But the MSM hasn't even looked at it.


You're very, very good. Almost too good. I'm sure some people are going to take you seriously.

We truly live in a post-satirical era. Some people are so wacky it's almost impossible to satirize them. Satire usually requires exaggeration, but it's very hard to exaggerate something that's already terribly exaggerated. The satire ends up being indistinguishable from the target of the satire. This is why the famous New Yorker cover didn't work that well.
===================
alan:

This attempt to add lustre to his reputation for sober foreign policy judgment is highly unconvincing.


Your dry wit is always a treat.
11.3.2008 8:53am
byomtov (mail):
Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that any of these rumors or suspicions turns out to be true or untrue, or even that I believe they're true or untrue, and that's because in all honesty I have no idea. My complaint is that due to the mainstream media's self-dealing partisanship, none of us has any idea.

You mean the media is partisan because they don't print unfounded fever-swamp rumors about Obama? Do you think they should chase down every fantasy that some blogger dreams up?
11.3.2008 10:24am
byomtov (mail):
Richard Aubrey,

Look at Reagan: Still hammered for being racist because he gave a speech at a fair in Mississippi which was near a place some civil rights had been violated.

Come on, Richard. You may think the criticism of Reagan is unfair, but this is hardly an accurate statement of the events.

The murder of three civil rights workers by local racists, including the local sheriff, and the refusal of the state of MS to prosecute the case, is a lot more than just some civil rights violation.

Further the speech was not "near" the place. It was at the place - Neshoba County. The county Sheriff's office was directly involved in the killing.

And finally, of course, Reagan manged to slip the phrase "states' rights," which was used throughout the south as a code word for segregation, into his speech.

Now maybe Reagan didn't know that, or didn't mean it, or whatever. I personally think he knew exactly what he was saying, but you may disagree. Regardless, I don't think the facts of what happened merit such a casual and careless dismissal.
11.3.2008 10:37am
PC:
You mean the media is partisan because they don't print unfounded fever-swamp rumors about Obama? Do you think they should chase down every fantasy that some blogger dreams up?

The problem with trying to knock down conspiracy theories is the people that create the theories tend to cling to them tightly. No amount of evidence will be good enough to prove the theory wrong. I was just listening to an interview with Philip J. Berg, the guy that filed the law suit over Obama's birth certificate.

Hawaiian officials came out recently and said they confirmed Obama's birth certificate. His new argument? The officials didn't specifically say they confirmed his "Hawaiian birth certificate." The officials may have confirmed his Kenyan birth certificate.

If the officials came out and said, "we have confirmed Barack Obama was born in Hawaii and his Hawaiian birth certificate is genuine," then some other conspiracy would be offered. Obama threatened the officials, paid them off, etc. There's no way to win that argument.

When dealing people that like to peddle conspiracy theories there are two options. Ignore them and hope they go away or mock them. I find the latter is more entertaining.
11.3.2008 10:41am
Melancton Smith:
Frankly the birth certificate 'issue' is pathetic.

Personally I'd support amending the Constitution to allow foreign born but long-standing residents (i.e. from childhood maybe or x consecutive years, etc) being President.
11.3.2008 11:10am
nlcatter:
hughes is dead

all you have is speculation and lies
11.3.2008 11:31am
J. Walker (mail):
Jim Lindgren's pulled this nonsense before. On July 14, he
posted selective quotes from an article quoting Obama, turning off comments. Why turn off comments, Jim?

The Volokh Conspiracy loses credibility when it allows people like Lindgren to pull this nonsense. Other blogs have noted it today. It especially loses credibility when it gives him the option to turn off comments on his own posts.
11.3.2008 11:36am
Richard Aubrey (mail):
byomotov

Yeah. To pull some rank, so to speak. I spent a couple of summers in MS doing the civil rights thing, so I am more aware than most about the sorts of things that happened.
However, other things go on as well. Where I worked, there was a black sheriff by 1986, who had to have been somebody long enough prior to that to be a viable candidate. One thing he had been was a coroner who busted a couple of cops who killed a black prisoner, and thereby started the Byhalia boycott. See Osborne Bell.
The problem with Reagan and the county fair issue is that any republican who goes to a county fair in a county were something bad happened (certain things. The death of Kenneth Tillery certainly wouldn't have counted) within a certain--lengthy and flexible--period of time is going to give libs, dems, and the media a handle for completely unsupported smears. Goes with the territory.
Nobody has a problem with states' rights, I hope, on a board for lawyers. I hope.
It was code for one thing in the Fifties and Sixties, it's straightforward other things now. And it was when Reagan talked about it.
11.3.2008 11:49am
eyesay:
hanoi paris hilton wrote: "How come nobody caught the reference to Bogart's first line to Ingrid Bergman in Casablanca, 'Of all the lousy gin-joints in the world, you had to walk into this one...?'"

Rick's comment was not to Ilsa, it was to Sam the piano player that Rick says, "Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine."
11.3.2008 11:51am
hanoi paris hilton:
I stand corrected, eyesay!
11.3.2008 12:24pm
NPJ:
Well, you can certainly tell the trolls from regular Volokh readers here. Anyone who even occasionally reads Professor Lindgren's posts would know he's no anti-Obama shill or conspiracy theorist.

Curiosity about the Senator's years at Columbia and immediately afterward is hardly a partisan matter, or at least should not be. And the SDS/Weathermen history has its own fascinations. I'd be delighted, too, if anyone had informatin to add.
11.3.2008 12:48pm
Twenty non-partisan reasons to oppose BHO (mail) (www):
In case no one else answered the "challenge", the WUO or a splinter group did kill three people when BHO was just 19 years old, when the toddler BHO was barely able to speak or walk:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#Dissolution

Certain members remained underground and joined other radical groups. Years after the dissolution of the WUO, former members Kathy Boudin, Judith Alice Clark, and David Gilbert formed the May 19 Communist Organization, which eventually joined with the Black Liberation Army. On October 20, 1981, in Nyack New York, the group robbed a Brinks armored truck containing $1.6 million. The robbery turned violent, resulting in the murders of two police officers and a security guard.[6] Boudin, Clark, and Gilbert were found guilty and sentenced to lengthy terms in prison, considered the “last gasps” of the Weather Underground.

Dohrn served several months in jail over that.

Also, regarding the birth certificate, it's a fact that Obama has not proved that he's eligible, despite what the "fact checkers" have said. And, no, the recent report from the state of HI isn't proof either. They only said they had a cert on file, they provided absolutely no information on that cert. Under HI state law (at the link), those who weren't born in HI can get a HI birth certificate.
11.3.2008 1:37pm
Visitor Again:
In case no one else answered the "challenge", the WUO or a splinter group did kill three people when BHO was just 19 years old, when the toddler BHO was barely able to speak or walk:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#Dissolution

Certain members remained underground and joined other radical groups. Years after the dissolution of the WUO, former members Kathy Boudin, Judith Alice Clark, and David Gilbert formed the May 19 Communist Organization, which eventually joined with the Black Liberation Army. On October 20, 1981, in Nyack New York, the group robbed a Brinks armored truck containing $1.6 million. The robbery turned violent, resulting in the murders of two police officers and a security guard.[6] Boudin, Clark, and Gilbert were found guilty and sentenced to lengthy terms in prison, considered the “last gasps” of the Weather Underground.

Dohrn served several months in jail over that.



It is dishonest to describe the Nyack, N.Y. Brinks robbery and killings as a Weather Underground operation. The Weather Underground organization became inactive and had dissolved by 1976, some years before the Nyack murders occurred in 1981. Moreover, Bernardine Dohrn and Bill Ayers surfaced and surrendered in 1980, the year before the Nyack Brinks robbery and murders. The Wikpedia article on the Weatherman organization which you quote makes all this clear.

It is also dishonest to say, as you do, that Bernardine Dohrn "served served several months in jail over that," in reference to the Nyack robbery and killings. Dohrn was prosecuted and served time for contempt for refusing to testify against a former Weather Underground member, Susan Rosenberg, who was charged with weapons and explosives offences committed in 1984 and not connected to the Brinks robbery and murders.

Dohrn had no connection to the Brinks robbery and murders. She was never prosecuted in connection with the Brinks robbery and murders. Nor for that matter was Roserberg, although she allegedly drove the getaway car in the Brinks robbery.

See the Wikipedia entries on Bernardine Dohrn and Susan Rosenberg.
11.3.2008 3:29pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Visitor.
Rosenberg alledgely drove the getaway car. But was never prosecuted.
In your mind, does the latter mean she had nothing to do with it?
I know not being prosecuted, or, as happened with Ayers, being prosecuted with tainted information is a get out of jail free card. But is that the same as having not actually been involved?
11.3.2008 3:36pm
byomtov (mail):
Richard Aubrey,

Yeah. To pull some rank, so to speak. I spent a couple of summers in MS doing the civil rights thing, so I am more aware than most about the sorts of things that happened.

Good for you. Seriously.

But I think I can claim some personal understanding of this stuff as well, having lived in the Jim Crow South through my teen-age years.

Still, I think it's fair to say your description of the killings as "some civil rigts violations" minimizes them considerably. And it's also fair to say that Reagan did speak in Neshoba County, where the killings occurred, not just somewhere in the general vicinity.

We disagree on our interpretation of Reagan's use of the phrase "states' rights." The issue has been argued on a million blog threads, give or take. It's become more ritual than discussion. No need to rehash it.
11.3.2008 7:05pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
By.
Okay, I was dismissive of the nature of the offense.
Counties are big, MS is a poor agricultural state and is overrun with kudzu because they were even poor at agriculture. If you want to speak at a county fair on or about such and such a date, you don't have much of a choice.
The murders had been some years earlier.

To make a comparison: If Jesse Jackson went to Wichita and spoke about how the criminal justice system is unfair to black men, would he be considered to be affirming the Wichita Massacre?
Of course not.
What if he didn't speak about anything having to do with crime at all?
It's a stretch reserved for republicans.
11.3.2008 8:29pm
nlcatter:
Dohnr did not serve time over any Brinks robbery

and the link shows only that tyhe parents had to have
been REsidents of Hawaii at time of birth



you are a fucking fruitcake
11.3.2008 9:18pm