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Hillary Clinton (and Others) on Sarah Palin:

Senator Hillary Clinton made the following statement about John McCain's selection of Sarah Palin as his running mate:

"We should all be proud of Governor Sarah Palin's historic nomination, and I congratulate her and Senator McCain. While their policies would take America in the wrong direction, Governor Palin will add an important new voice to the debate.

The Washington Post also has a roundup of comments on the pick from Newt Gingrich, Grover Norquist, John Podesta, and others. And Fred Barnes has a good profile in today's WSJ here.

UPDATE: Ed Morrissey responds to criticisms of the Palin pick here.

J. Aldridge:
Lemme guess, only liberal polices can take the country in the right direction.
8.30.2008 11:17am
JosephSlater (mail):
Very gracious of Hillary.

Here, on the other hand, is a quote from Karl Rove. Granted, he's talking about Obama's options before Obama picked his VP, but it makes me wonder how this logic would apply to Palin:

"I think [Obama's] going to make an intensely political choice, not a governing choice," Rove said. "He's going to view this through the prism of a candidate, not through the prism of president; that is to say, he's going to pick somebody that he thinks will on the margin help him in a state like Indiana or Missouri or Virginia. He's not going to be thinking big and broad about the responsibilities of president."

Rove singled out Virginia governor Tim Kaine, also a Face The Nation guest, as an example of such a pick.

"With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years, he's been able but undistinguished," Rove said. "I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America."


Courtesy Talking Points Memo.
8.30.2008 11:22am
John Armstrong (mail) (www):
J. Aldridge: don't be daft. If she thought that conservative policies would take the country in the right direction then she'd be a conservative. It's pretty much in the definition.
8.30.2008 11:32am
Han Solo (mail):
I heard some pundit/talking head suggest... "Obama will probably need to recruit Hillary for a much bigger role in the campaign than originally planned.

My wife said: "Yeah RIGHT! She's just gonna say....good luck with all that! Later."
8.30.2008 11:39am
EPluribusMoney (mail):
The elephant in the living room, that I haven't seen mentioned, is PMS.

Maggie Thatcher and Hillary were past that stage when they ran, but what would happen if Russia invaded Georgia while a president was on PMS?

I'm for McCain so maybe shouldn't even bring this up, but I've had some experiences with PMS women and it wasn't pretty.
8.30.2008 11:46am
Dave N (mail):
I thought Hillary Clinton's comment was classy--a LOT classier than the initial comment from the Obama campaign. My opinion of HRC went up a notch as a result.
8.30.2008 11:54am
Oren:

but what would happen if Russia invaded Georgia while a president was on PMS?

She would make the same rational decision as any other time of the month. Or are you also concerned about the president menstruating on important legislation?
8.30.2008 12:10pm
JosephSlater (mail):
It's been reported that McCain only met Palin one time before selecting her as his VP candidate. If that's true, am I the only one that thinks that's rather odd and troublesome?

Also, assuming EPluribusMoney is being even semi-serious, it raises the question of how many votes McCain will lose from conservative Republicans because of pure sexism.
8.30.2008 12:20pm
loki13 (mail):
I'm, reposting this comment from another thread because there's so many Palin threads here I've lost count . . .

More interestingly, the more some posters learn about Palin, the more convinced they are she is a perfect pick. The more others learn about her, the more convinced they are she is an airheaded albatross.

I think the final analysis i what most high-level Republicans believe- huh? She is a huge gamble. The next week will be great. If she can survive the national media onslaught for the next two months, McCain's gamble will have paid off. If not, it will come off as a tactical victory, and a strategic blunder of epic proportions, especially considering how well he had been doing.

IOW, considering he had made the race into a near dead-heat (nationally, if not in the elcetoral college yet), why did he feel the need to throw a hail mary? IMHO, it this pick says more about McCain's gambling spirit (either great, if you're a Republican, or horrible recklessness, if you're a Democrat) than it reflects on Palin.

As the people of Alaska are saying- great for us. Awesome for Alaska! But WTF are the mainlanders thinking?

To add something new-
Dave N- does this mean that conservatives have forgiven HRC for killing Vince Foster? :)
8.30.2008 12:27pm
wuzzagrunt (mail):

Dave N :
I thought Hillary Clinton's comment was classy--a LOT classier than the initial comment from the Obama campaign. My opinion of HRC went up a notch as a result.


Not just classy, but politically brilliant. Makes me happy that she is not the Democrat nominee.
8.30.2008 12:32pm
Dave N (mail):
Loki,

I never bought into that. I think Bill Clinton is a corrupt bastard but did he (or Hillary) kill Vince Foster (or even drive him to suicide)? No.
8.30.2008 12:34pm
Dave N (mail):
wuzzagrunt,

Yes.
8.30.2008 12:35pm
loki13 (mail):
Let me add to this-

What matters is not how Palin is perceived now, but how she is perceived two months from now. Will she shore up the conservative base? Attract blue collar men and independent women? Make horrible mistakes that cause people to question McCain's judgment? Have a skeleton is the closet that the national media will pounce on (as she was less than fully vetted, and Alask is different than the national stage)?

As VP choices go, she is somewhat high risk, high reward.

Everyone calling her the 'best' VP choice is wrong. Everyone calling her 'awful' and 'inexperienced' is wrong too (voters won't care, unless there's a skeleton or major gaffe that forms that narrative).

I don't have a crystal ball. Do you?

My curiousity is why McCain made this pick, given that he has been doing so well.
8.30.2008 12:36pm
lawrefugee:
There's a couple things that I think are funny about the coverage of the Palin pick.

First, everyone's focused on Hillary's primary VOTERS (the 18 million), but the battle is for the apx. 70 million+ non-primary voters the democrats will likely need to win. incl what, 40 million women? If McCain happens to get ANY Hillary primary voters, that's just gravy.

Second, whatever questions it raises about her inexperience and leaving aside whether she'll hold up, it's at least not subject to the two big problems that haunt the Bush presidency: (1) rewarding and lauding incompetence (Ridge, Brownie, etc.); or (2) rewarding cronies (Gonzales, Miers), with no concern for policy implications. She's there for domestic purposes where she can be pretty formidable if history is any indication. Instead, it bolsters his reform credentials and gives hope that he might be assembling a group (Pawlenty, Romney?, Jindal, Palin) that might recapture what is good about the GOP and translate it beyond its stereotypes.
8.30.2008 12:46pm
Proud to be a liberal :
The key to a VP choice is whether the VP is ready to lead day 1. Let's remember that William Henry Harrison died after getting sick on inaguration day and that our youngest elected President was assassinated. The VP's most important job is to stand ready to lead if something happens to the President. Thus, McCain has to take the position that Palin has what she needs to be President.
2. Thus, there is no way that one can leave aside any questions about Palin's inexperience. So, as an Obama supporter, I am thrilled that the "ready to lead" argument has been removed. Thank you, John McCain.
8.30.2008 12:53pm
Lokipv (mail):
This is so Typical of Obamanation Voters,
Obama Campaign calling the kettle Black,,,
Sarah Palin has Has Just as much experiance as Barack Obama if not more so,, Obama has NO Experiance and riding on the Coat tiles of the black Nomination,, There is no way Thay can put her down,, Say she Not experiance because,,Then Barack Obama will have to say since he have 0 experiance what make him so special,
Attacking Her going to be like attacking him self,,

This is going to be good, We finally have a woman to vote for,, I voted for Hillary and like I said I voting for McCain, now that he picked a woman,, more woman voter are voting for her,,,
Sarah Palin will be a great VP,, anyone who says other wise, will have a lot of explaining to do,, Because,, Barack Has NO experiance and he thinks he could be President!!!!!

And Barack Speech was the same old speech he gives Everyone wants change Why don't someone tell Barack Time to get an Agenda, Time to change his speech's he been singing,, getting old,
But then again Only Barack thinks everyone should vote for him
No matter what criminals he had with him,, Ryzko , Who got barack his House,, and Like always,, barack bringing up McCain Houses, how dumb again, calling the kettle black again,, 2 people Rich People,,,1 worth 4 million and the other worth 400 million,, Gee to me and every other middle class in america Rich is rich,, so barack want to get into a pissing match over Houses,, instead of telling the people what he going to do,, He done Nothing every news Media knows he adopted Hillary campaign, Pelosi and Dean And Barack Obama are making Hillary Unite this party ,, Barack Obama won the Primary so why is it up to Hillary to unite this party,, Why are they asking Her,is this all she can do,, it not up to her,, Its up to Barack Obama,, What we have Here is Bush Tactics, they are going to do all they can to fraud and Hi-Jack this Campaign, and rig the election, like they did with Hillary,, they way they gave Obama florida and Michigan even tho Hillary won those fair and Square ,,no Barack wants half after the fact,,,

Well I am glad Hillary is not the vp for barack now she can run in 2012, against McCain ,,,and she can be the first Woman President, But right Now Sarah Palin going to be the First Woman Vice President, who has Just as much experiance as Barack Obama,, McCain Made a great choice,

I guess That greek temple of a joke stage barack made for his speech is the closest he going to get to the white house,,

He Really thinks He is already President, Well at least I did go out and started using barack obama energy Plan I bought a TiRE GUAGE, ,, wow we are saving money Now,
Don't FOR Get BarackObama Seal,, He Stole from commander &Chief Seal, The Man is an EGO Maniacs,,, I am a Proud Democrat, I will not blindly vote for a Man who will Hurt this Country, I will not do it, If Hitler was a democrat , I have to vote for him,, ,NO way No How NO OBAMA
8.30.2008 12:58pm
Lokipv (mail):


This is so Typical of Obamanation Voters,
Obama Campaign calling the kettle Black,,,
Sarah Palin has Has Just as much experiance as Barack Obama if not more so,, Obama has NO Experiance and riding on the Coat tiles of the black Nomination,, There is no way Thay can put her down,, Say she Not experiance because,,Then Barack Obama will have to say since he have 0 experiance what make him so special,
Attacking Her going to be like attacking him self,,

This is going to be good, We finally have a woman to vote for,, I voted for Hillary and like I said I voting for McCain, now that he picked a woman,, more woman voter are voting for her,,,
Sarah Palin will be a great VP,, anyone who says other wise, will have a lot of explaining to do,, Because,, Barack Has NO experiance and he thinks he could be President!!!!!

And Barack Speech was the same old speech he gives Everyone wants change Why don't someone tell Barack Time to get an Agenda, Time to change his speech's he been singing,, getting old,
But then again Only Barack thinks everyone should vote for him
No matter what criminals he had with him,, Ryzko , Who got barack his House,, and Like always,, barack bringing up McCain Houses, how dumb again, calling the kettle black again,, 2 people Rich People,,,1 worth 4 million and the other worth 400 million,, Gee to me and every other middle class in america Rich is rich,, so barack want to get into a pissing match over Houses,, instead of telling the people what he going to do,, He done Nothing every news Media knows he adopted Hillary campaign, Pelosi and Dean And Barack Obama are making Hillary Unite this party ,, Barack Obama won the Primary so why is it up to Hillary to unite this party,, Why are they asking Her,is this all she can do,, it not up to her,, Its up to Barack Obama,, What we have Here is Bush Tactics, they are going to do all they can to fraud and Hi-Jack this Campaign, and rig the election, like they did with Hillary,, they way they gave Obama florida and Michigan even tho Hillary won those fair and Square ,,no Barack wants half after the fact,,,

Well I am glad Hillary is not the vp for barack now she can run in 2012, against McCain ,,,and she can be the first Woman President, But right Now Sarah Palin going to be the First Woman Vice President, who has Just as much experiance as Barack Obama,, McCain Made a great choice,

I guess That greek temple of a joke stage barack made for his speech is the closest he going to get to the white house,,

He Really thinks He is already President, Well at least I did go out and started using barack obama energy Plan I bought a TiRE GUAGE, ,, wow we are saving money Now,
Don't FOR Get BarackObama Seal,, He Stole from commander &Chief Seal, The Man is an EGO Maniacs,,, I am a Proud Democrat, I will not blindly vote for a Man who will Hurt this Country, I will not do it, If Hitler was a democrat , I have to vote for him,, ,NO way No How NO OBAMA
8.30.2008 12:59pm
Dave N (mail):
I find myself in the unique position of agreeing with Loki13 on a political thread. The devil must be ice skating today.
8.30.2008 1:00pm
SecurityGeek:
The Republicans have 1-2 weeks to build a public persona for Palin and they are currently losing. Every mention of her in print or tv media is also including the questions about her experience and her TrooperGate scandal.

This choice is insane. It's pretty clear that Romney was the front runner until the house gaff, and that team McCain had to start from scratch a couple of weeks ago.

A 72 yo president needs a VP who passes the basic CinC laugh test. McCain's only effective line of attack has been trying to push Obama below that line to make him unacceptable to voters. Palin starts *way below* that line and they don't have a lot of time to get her above it.

Dealing with a "15 house ticket" with Romney would have been easier than having a VP that nobody trusts with her finger on the button.

Jeebus, my County(!!) is more populous and has greater GDP output than Alaska. I'm not pushing our County Executive for leader of the free world.
8.30.2008 1:06pm
wuzzagrunt (mail):

Proud to be a liberal :

2. Thus, there is no way that one can leave aside any questions about Palin's inexperience. So, as an Obama supporter, I am thrilled that the "ready to lead" argument has been removed. Thank you, John McCain.


The question of whether Palin is qualified to be Vice President has been pretty well settled by Democrat primary voters. She is at least marginally more qualified to be at the top of the ticket than is Obama. Two years of small-state executive experience beats none--every time.

For the record, I don't believe a couple of decades in the US Senate is a particularly sterling qualification for a POTUS. The most objectively qualified candidates were Giuliani, Romney, and Richardson (not necessarily in that order) but the voters did not warm to them sufficiently.
8.30.2008 1:13pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):
Besides that, Mrs. Clinton, how did you enjoy the play?
8.30.2008 1:17pm
MarkField (mail):

The devil must be ice skating today.


As he does every day, according to Dante.

With the caveat that anecdotes aren't data, my wife has always been a strong Hilary supporter. She was insulted by the Palin choice. Her reasoning is that McCain seems to have picked a woman just to pick a woman, without regard for her actual qualifications (there being, obviously, a great many more qualified women in the Republican party). She saw it as pandering.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I do think McCain is pandering, but I'm not sure it's to women (notwithstanding the many comments to that effect). I think he's pandering to the hard right, and I'd offer the comment threads here as evidence -- just look at the most enthusiastic supporters of the choice.
8.30.2008 1:18pm
Norman Bates (mail):
An election slogan: Barak Obama embraced corruption to get into politics; Sarah Palin got into politics to fight corruption.

(Expanded version:

Obama was an active participant in Daly's corrupt Chicago machine. The machine rewarded his loyalty by colluding with him to ensure that he ran unopposed in his first campaign. Obama chose to start his career in Chicago precisely because machine politics gave him an edge.

Palin got into politics the way most middle-class and working-class moms do--to improve the community she and her family lived in. She was willing to put her political future on the line to fight for her community and against the corruption within her own party.

I know who I'm voting for.
8.30.2008 1:19pm
MarkField (mail):

The question of whether Palin is qualified to be Vice President has been pretty well settled by Democrat primary voters. She is at least marginally more qualified to be at the top of the ticket than is Obama.


The flaw in this argument is that it's directly contrary to what McCain has been saying for months now. He has harped on Obama's supposed lack of experience, only to choose someone equally shy of the usual resume lines.* This reinforces the image of McCain as lacking the temperment and judgment necessary to be President which Obama emphasized.

*For the record, I think the experience argument is silly on both sides. The two most experienced people in the country today are Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. I think we know how the latter would fare this fall, and I can guess how the commenters here would treat the experience argument if Bill were running.
8.30.2008 1:23pm
MarkField (mail):

I know who I'm voting for.


Sure, but you knew that before the selection of Palin. As did the rest of us.
8.30.2008 1:24pm
Angus:

This choice is insane. It's pretty clear that Romney was the front runner until the house gaff, and that team McCain had to start from scratch a couple of weeks ago.

From what it appears, it was much faster than that according to various reports. It seems that a few days ago McCain had decided, and it was definitely Pawlenty. Then McCain got concerned over how well the DNC was going, so he decided to fly in Palin and give her an interview while his staff tried to vet her in a couple of days.
8.30.2008 1:29pm
Ron Mexico:
Seriously now, experience is one thing---but what would ever lead anyone to believe that Palin has any business in national politics? There is literally nothing on her resume which suggests anything of distinction, of success, of capability. She went to the University of Idaho. She had some random, unimpressive jobs. And then she became a glorified student council president. She seems like a nice person, but why would she ever have any business potentially running the country? This is about as far away from a serious pick as you can get without just selecting some random person off the street in a lottery.
8.30.2008 1:33pm
Michael B (mail):
Not effusive, but that was sound, thoughtful and gracious of Hillary Clinton.

"Thus, there is no way that one can leave aside any questions about Palin's inexperience. So, as an Obama supporter, I am thrilled that the "ready to lead" argument has been removed. Thank you, John McCain." Proud to be a Lib

You must be positively frightened about Obama's inexperience. Unless, that is, you're considering his executive experience as it relates to the Ayers-Annenberg Files, concerning which, multiplied numbers of MSM types and others are demonstrating a studious incuriosity. Excerpt:

"In 2004 they tried to peddle a man who made claims about his military career that were easily proven to be lies (Christmas in Cambodia, outrageous charges about war crimes by his fellow soldiers) as a war hero “reporting for duty.”

"This time around they are trying to take a man whose entire career has linked him with far-left anti-American characters, political agendas focused on redistribution of wealth, and racial spoils and pawn him off on us as a man who transcends race and partisanship.

"As the façade’s cracks begin to show through — largely outside the focus of the major media — the Obama camp is behaving badly and thereby telegraphing that the charges involving Obama’s role in the Chicago Annenberg Challenge (CAC) are not only true, but both unanswerable and exceedingly damaging to the campaign’s make-believe narrative about their candidate.

"First, someone — still unknown but undoubtedly linked to the Chicago Annenberg Challenge as an executive or board member during the time Obama was its chairman — tried to prevent the University of Illinois’ Richard J. Daley library from making available to writer Stanley Kurtz the organization’s records.

"Then the campaign falsely asserted that ads respecting the CAC and Obama’s links to Ayers through it had been made by McCain, sent threatening letters to stations brave enough to carry the ad, and topped it off with two letters to the Department of Justice laughably demanding a full investigation into the organization which sponsored the ads, a 501(c)(4) organization legally permitted to engage in such activities."

Additionally, from John Fund and touching on Obama's inexperience from another angle:

"Joe Biden wasn’t even on Barack Obama’s short list until August 7, when Russia suddenly invaded the neighboring country of Georgia. That’s the word from key Democrats meeting here in Denver who say the Obama campaign’s need to shore up its foreign policy bona fides helped push the Delaware senator to the top of the pack. ‘We didn’t pick our nominee. Vladimir Putin did,’ is how one Democrat, who professes to be pleased with the Biden choice, put it." John Fund

As to Sarah Palin's experience, the following perhaps first and foremost:

In addition to being the first woman governor of her state along with her other bona fides of note, she is a responsible mother of five children. If you don't believe that alone requires executive know-how at a truly grass-roots and rubber-meets-the-road level, you truly do not appreciate the multiplied difficulties and issues that inhere to motherhood.
8.30.2008 1:36pm
wuzzagrunt (mail):

MarkField:

*For the record, I think the experience argument is silly on both sides. The two most experienced people in the country today are Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. I think we know how the latter would fare this fall, and I can guess how the commenters here would treat the experience argument if Bill were running.


Take a look at Harry Truman's quals when he finally got to sit in the big chair. Less than two unexceptional terms in the Senate and a stint as a completely out-of-the-loop Veep. He did pretty well for greenhorn. Eisenhower was probably one of the most qualified man to ever win election to the office, but plenty of men with decently impressive resumes have been pretty poor performers, once in office.

IMO, neither Clinton nor Bush have earned a third term, based on performance in office--even if it were legal.
8.30.2008 1:36pm
JosephSlater (mail):
I agree with Mark Field. My guess is that Palin will help more with McCain rallying the hard-right base than with disappointed Hilarry voters. Indeed, the fact that she is good with the religious right is going to hurt her trying to go after Hillary supporters.

I also agree with Angus that this pick seems to indicate McCain looked at the DNC and decided he was losing and needed a game changer. It would be interesting to see what his internal poll numbers said.

Honestly, though, I think Palin and Biden are being over-analyzed. I don't think these picks are really going to move that many people. If you really thought Obama didn't have foreign policy chops, are you really going to vote for him because he picked Biden? If you liked Hillary and thought she got a raw deal in the Dem primaries, are you really going to vote for McCain and an anti-choice-even-in-cases-of-rape-or-abortion veep just because the veep is female?

Ask yourself this. In the last election, did you really vote based on Cheney or Edwards -- in the sense that some other plausible candidate for either VP spot would have changed your vote?

People vote for the top of the ticket. Maybe they should think more about veeps -- and McCain's age should be respectfully considered here. But I'm not sure they do.
8.30.2008 1:53pm
llamasex (mail) (www):
I am firmly in Obama's camp, but I think Palin is pretty darn likable. She seems like a solid person, but it isn't the "experience" that is the problem.

I get the impression that she hasn't thought deeply about the issues facing America. Look at this quote from 06

"I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq. I heard on the news about the new deployments, and while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place; I want assurances that we are doing all we can to keep our troops safe,"

I mean there is decent chance McCain could die in office and I don't think she is ready to step up if called on. It isn't experience it is having thought about the issues and knowing where you stand and what needs to be done. Which BTW is why I am fine with Obama having little experience, because it seems like he has spent alot of thought on the issues and made the right choices (Pre-Iraq War he nailed in his assessment)
8.30.2008 1:54pm
David Warner:
"*For the record, I think the experience argument is silly on both sides. The two most experienced people in the country today are Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. I think we know how the latter would fare this fall, and I can guess how the commenters here would treat the experience argument if Bill were running."

I'm agreeing with both MarkField and Loki13 on this thread. Palin's a uniter, not a divider!
8.30.2008 1:59pm
Michael B (mail):
Actually, JosephSlater, in general people tend to place a vote for the future.

And neither Cheney nor Edwards reflected any particularly new or newly emphasized aspects of the respective nominee. That's decidedly not true of Sarah Palin, who is not even remotely close to being a Geraldine Ferraro-styled gamble - to the contrary, she possesses substance and gravitas on any number of levels.
8.30.2008 2:11pm
EH (mail):
Personally I'm much less concerned with the experience question and much more interested in the "cheerleader and sportscaster" question.
8.30.2008 2:21pm
Jmaie (mail):
McCain hopes to attract some women voters, but there is another angle. Palin is everyones favorite attractive, pillar-of-the-community neighbor mom, the one who invites your kids over to go swimming.

The inevitable nasty personal attacks will reflect badly on the Obama camp, sort of a Princess Di phenomenon.
8.30.2008 2:24pm
theobromophile (www):
Classy, gracious, and undercuts any signs of catfighting. I never thought I would say this, but go, Hillary!

To those who do not understand the female body: some of us do not get PMS (we're bitches 24/7). If Palin did get horrendous PMS, we could presume that Alaska would be in trouble once a month. Maybe we shouldn't let women in the military (at all), handle guns, or run anything more important than the PTO until they hit menopause. SUCH CRAP.
8.30.2008 2:26pm
Oren:
theo, I tried to head that one off a while back. It was a troll-and-run sort of situation I think.
8.30.2008 2:34pm
LM (mail):

That's decidedly not true of Sarah Palin, who is not even remotely close to being a Geraldine Ferraro-styled gamble

That's damning with faint praise. As for her substance and gravitas, I guess we'll see. She'll have to overcome that her likable, folksy style undermines a perception of gravitas.

That said, I also agree with David, Mark and Loki13.
8.30.2008 2:34pm
Bob from Ohio (mail):
You can't tell yet. It might be a good pick, maybe not. I know we want instant stuff but you have to see how she actually does.

For the short term, it blunted the convention bounce and made the GOP convention more interesting. Who would have watched a convention with McCain and Tim Pawlenty?

I agree with those that suggest that the VP pick really does not matter too much in the end. Most vote for the top, not the bottom of the ticket.

I disagree with Mark Field that there were many more qualified GOP women if you factor in that were also acceptable to the party.

Are there any other GOP women governors? I don't think so. As for Senators, the Maine Twins are considered RINOs, pro-choice and too liberal. Libby Dole is in a tough reelection campaign and is a Dole. Hutchison is more experienced but is not in any way considered a star, rather boring and a Beltway hack. Any others?

The two ex-ceos (Whitman and the one from HP/Compaq)are true rookies. Never ran for any office ever.

Condi Rice is too Bush connected.

So, who were the other choices? Palin is the most logical woman.

Why a woman? He could have went with Pawlenty, of course, but, again, who would care? And bluntly, he needed someone exotic. If you think the GOP woman bench is weak, try GOP blacks. Eric Cantor as Jewish was the only other choice for exotic.

Well,my two cents.
8.30.2008 2:42pm
Michael B (mail):
That purportedly "faint praise" is but an exceedingly thin slice of what she brings overall to the national stage and the set of debates that will be taking place. In and of itself it was praise, but primarily it was for purposes of emphasizing a perspective.
8.30.2008 2:46pm
This is Why More Women Are Democrats:

The elephant in the living room, that I haven't seen mentioned, is PMS.

Maggie Thatcher and Hillary were past that stage when they ran, but what would happen if Russia invaded Georgia while a president was on PMS?

I'm for McCain so maybe shouldn't even bring this up, but I've had some experiences with PMS women and it wasn't pretty.


Wow. I'm so hoping this is sarcastic, but I sort of sense that it's not. So I have to say, with an attitude like that I'm not surprised you've had some bad experiences with women. Maybe they weren't PMS-ing, maybe you're just an asshole.

Believe it or not, each and every day women of child-bearing age perform surgery, negotiate high-profile business deals, serve their nation in uniform, prosecute and defend murderers, and yes, make high-profile political decisions. If PMS were a debilitating condition then I guess Bush could blame the Iraq debacle on Condi Rice's time of the month, but even he has more class than you do.

For the record it's not my time of the month right now. I'm like this every day.
8.30.2008 2:49pm
metro1 (mail) (www):
When it comes to experience - there are negative types of experience.

For example - Joe Biden has lots of experience plagiarizing others - he did it in law school and in 1987 during his Presidential campaign.

Obama has lots of experiences hob-nobbing in Chicago high society with admitted domestic terrorist Bill Ayers.

"Experience" is an argument where the Dems have nothing but bad news: a partial-term Senator from Illinois and a serial plagiarist. Great experience.

As usual, Mark Steyn has it right:

Mark Steyn's take on Governor Sarah Palin:

* * *

What other country in the developed world produces beauty queens who hunt caribou and serve up a terrific moose stew? As an immigrant, I'm not saying I came to the United States purely to meet chicks like that, but it was certainly high on my list of priorities. And for the gun-totin' Miss Wasilla then to go on to become Governor while having five kids makes it an even more uniquely American story. Next to her resume, a guy who's done nothing but serve in the phony-baloney job of "community organizer" and write multiple autobiographies looks like just another creepily self-absorbed lifelong member of the full-time political class that infests every advanced democracy.

* * *

Sarah Palin and Barack Obama are more or less the same age, but Governor Palin has run a state and a town and a commercial fishing operation, whereas (to reprise a famous line on the Rev Jackson) Senator Obama ain't run nothin' but his mouth. She's done the stuff he's merely a poseur about. Post-partisan? She took on her own party's corrupt political culture directly while Obama was sucking up to Wright and Ayers and being just another get-along Chicago machine pol (see his campaign's thuggish attempt to throttle Stanley Kurtz and Milt Rosenberg on WGN the other night).

* * *

Exactly right.

See, also, Rachel Lucas' take on Governor Sarah Palin
8.30.2008 3:02pm
stevelaudig (mail):
check raw story McCain VP pick laughs as radio

She's not ready. At any level.
8.30.2008 3:03pm
Federal Dog:
"This is about as far away from a serious pick as you can get without just selecting some random person off the street in a lottery."

An accurate description of Obama.
8.30.2008 3:03pm
Dave N (mail):
Bob From Ohio,

You did not mention Bobby Jindal. He would have been "excotic" (and was, IMHO, McCain's best possible choice).
8.30.2008 3:03pm
MLS:
I have heard Mrs. Palin present exactly one speech. I have two months to hear more speeches and learn more about her views concerning issues of the day...and I am not placing any particular priority on the "hot button" issues that have so polarized our country.

How people can express strong pro and con opinions about her based upon flimsy information escapes me entirely.
8.30.2008 3:16pm
Ron Mexico:
"An accurate description of Obama."

Do you seriously believe that? You can argue about his lack of experience, but he at least makes sense (Columbia, Harvard Law, state experience, Senator). I think his lack of experience is a winning argument for republicans, but to argue that Palin is somehow more experienced is simply laughable.

What has Palin possibly done to make you think she has any business running the greatest country in the history of the world? She's qualified to be president of the PTA. I would feel insulted if I were a republican. I just hope McCain doesn't pull a Harriet Miers with this---hopefully Palin can hang on long enough that a switch won't be an option.
8.30.2008 3:16pm
digoweli:
LOKIPV said: Sarah Palin has Has Just as much experiance as Barack Obama if not more so,, Obama has NO Experiance and riding on the Coat tiles of the black Nomination,

That this is racist is not the point. It is. That it also continues the 8 years of denigrating serious education is more to the point.

1. To compare an undergraduate degree in journalism from the University of Idaho to a Law Degree from Harvard is to denigrate a standard of education.

2. To compare an undergraduate degree in journalism from the University of Idaho to a summa cum laude Doctorate of Law from Harvard and the Editor of the most prestigeous Law Review in America is insane. Would you take an undergraduate degree as adequate for medicine or law or engineering? This is beyond idiocy and shows the disdain for education that a President who could not speak the English language showed by not learning.

3. Experience. Eight years representing a District of Chicago that is larger than Juneau the Capital of Alaska. Juneau a place with no transportation in but air and sea. No infrastructure to compare in any way with the third largest urban area in America. Experience with Moose and Beyline but what does that have to do with the Presidency?

4. Obama has worked on all of the levels of American Society and excelled. He received 70% of all of the votes in his election to the Senate. Was that made on a lack of experience, a pretty face and a nice speech? Sounds like Palin but in no way indicates a Constitutional Professor from the University of Chicago, a legislator and a person who put his hands into the gutter of America and brought people out on his back. He also married well.

But you folks can go to race because you are still grounded in 19th century science. Will you be looking for bumps on the head next?
8.30.2008 3:20pm
RPT (mail):
"Obama has lots of experiences hob-nobbing in Chicago high society with admitted domestic terrorist Bill Ayers."

Is there any record of how many times they have been in the same room together? Actually conversed? When and where? More or less than GWB and Jack Abramoff, or GWB and Duke Cunningham? Or McCain and Charles Keating? Can we actually deal in evidence here, rather than just guilt-by-association commentary? Argument is not evidence. Is that too much to ask from lawyers?
8.30.2008 3:26pm
Ryan Waxx (mail):

The Republicans have 1-2 weeks to build a public persona for Palin and they are currently losing. Every mention of her in print or tv media is also including the questions about her experience and her TrooperGate scandal.


Isn't it funny how not nearly as much attention was paid to Obama's experience by that same media?
8.30.2008 3:30pm
digoweli:
As for the issue on PMS? It effects some but not others. We could make the same question about a man who endured five years of physical beatings? What is the residual brain damage from such abuse and especially someone who was from the privileged class and who coasted his way through Annapolis at the bottom on the tax payments of the average American citizen. We refused to ask such questions from an entitled family that put their ex-drug addicted son up to be President of the nation when he showed all of the symptoms of such brain damage.

But the PMS issue was raised by the feminist writer Jane Smiley on the Huffington Post when she compared it not to PMS but breast feeding. She wanted to know what the lady would do at 3 AM when the red phone rang and she was breast feeding.

The parody on both sides enters the area of the ridiculous. Palin is in training in a huge backwater state with the same population as North Dakota and Wyoming but far fewer services or public issues to deal with. If she were applying to head the Interior Department I might disagree with her policies but not her qualifications.

It is indicative of how far Republicans are from the Working person that they think her husband's union membership will sway union members who depend upon Democrats to protect their rights and salaries.
8.30.2008 3:32pm
Prosecutorial Indiscretion:
What has Palin possibly done to make you think she has any business running the greatest country in the history of the world? She's qualified to be president of the PTA. I would feel insulted if I were a republican. I just hope McCain doesn't pull a Harriet Miers with this---hopefully Palin can hang on long enough that a switch won't be an option.


This woman you don't think is qualified to be PTA president is the most popular governor in the United States. She runs a state. What has Obama run?
8.30.2008 3:32pm
Federal Dog:
Even in the very, very brief time that Obama has nominally been a senator, he has been away from work campaigning for the presidency since 2005.

He has no experience.

He has no credibility.

He is supremely self-absorbed and incapable of admitting even his most painful, public, obvious mistakes: In short, he has no character.

You actually propose to make him president, and whine about Palin being named a vice-presidential candidate?
8.30.2008 3:38pm
metro1 (mail) (www):
"Obama has lots of experiences hob-nobbing in Chicago high society with admitted domestic terrorist Bill Ayers."

Quite true.

See this from the Chicago Sun-Times:

* * *

Ayers, 63, spent 10 years as a fugitive in the 1970s when he was part of the "Weather Underground," an anti-Vietnam War group that protested U.S. policies by bombing the Pentagon, U.S. Capitol and a string of other government buildings. Nobody was hurt in the attacks by the defunct organization, which the FBI labeled a "domestic terrorist group."

Today, Ayers and his wife — fellow former Weather Underground fugitive Bernardine Dohrn — live in Hyde Park, where they moved after surrendering in 1980. Federal charges against the two were dropped because of improper surveillance, so they avoided prison.

* * *

Along the way, they [Ayers and Dohrn] met a rising political star named Barack Obama, who lived in their neighborhood.

* * *

In the mid-1990s, Ayers and Dohrn hosted a meet-and-greet at their house to introduce Obama to their neighbors during his first run for the Illinois Senate. In 2001, Ayers contributed $200 to Obama's campaign. Ayers also served alongside Obama between December 1999 and December 2002 on the board of the not-for-profit Woods Fund of Chicago. That board met four times a year, and members would see each other at occasional dinners the group hosted.

* * *

More here:

* * *

Barack also was essentially an employee of Bill Ayers for eight years.

In 1995, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge was created to raise funds to help reform the Chicago public schools. One of the architects of the Challenge was none other than Professor Bill Ayers. Ayers co-wrote the initial grant proposal and proudly lists himself on his own website as the co-founder of the Challenge.

And who did William Ayers, co-creator of the Challenge, help select as the new director of the board for this program? Barack Obama. Barack Obama was the first Chairman of the Board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. This appointment came at a crucial time in Barack’s life. He was on the verge of challenging longtime state Senator Alice Palmer for her job. When Barack decided to run, it is no surprise that he turned to William Ayers and his wife, Bernardine Dohrn for help in organizing the campaign and in hosting his first fundraiser in the district.

Obama served on the board for eight years until the Challenge ended in 2003. Bill Ayers was intimately involved in the Challenge over this same time period.

* * *
8.30.2008 3:47pm
MarkField (mail):

To compare an undergraduate degree in journalism from the University of Idaho to a summa cum laude Doctorate of Law from Harvard and the Editor of the most prestigeous Law Review in America is insane.


Magna, not summa.
8.30.2008 3:50pm
EPluribusMoney (mail):
Having a VP candidate who might not be ready from day one to be commander in chief isn't half as bad as having a presidential candidate who clearly isn't ready. What if RUssia invades Poland on January 21st?

Can anyone imagine that effete arragula eating latte sipping Marxist as capable of being commander of our armed forces? He probably doesn't know a battalion from a division or a corporal from a lieutenant.
8.30.2008 3:54pm
Federal Dog:
Is anyone really attempting to argue that people who have doctorates from Harvard are necessarily intellectually superior to those who don't?

Sweet!
8.30.2008 3:55pm
taney71:

Is anyone really attempting to argue that people who have doctorates from Harvard are necessarily intellectually superior to those who don't?


Liberals generally do unless you are George W. Bush and then you are an idiot no matter what.
8.30.2008 4:05pm
Hoosier:
"The elephant in the living room, that I haven't seen mentioned, is PMS. "


Not to mention the risk that she might menstruate all over some important documents. How irresponsible of McCain!
8.30.2008 4:14pm
Hoosier:
"I don't have a crystal ball. Do you? "

No. Just a glass eye.


But Hillary did the classy thing. I am going to vote McCain, but I'm not one of those visceral Hillary-haters. So when she does something that a classy person would do, I'd just as soon assume it's because she has some class. If it was politically shrewed, fine. So was Palin's mention of Hillary at her first national appearance.

Both are smart women.
8.30.2008 4:17pm
EH (mail):
Bush and Cheney slipping in an "update" to the AUMF while this Palin noise machine is working tells me that something else is afoot.
8.30.2008 4:21pm
Michael B (mail):
"To compare an undergraduate degree in journalism from the University of Idaho to a summa cum laude Doctorate of Law from Harvard and the Editor of the most prestigeous Law Review in America is insane."

If the position in question were an academic position at an Ivy League Law school, that would perhaps be true, though "insane" is a silly exaggeration. However, that's not the case.

The position in question is the presidency and vice presidency of the U.S., hence academic qualifications per se are secondary or even tertiary interests. Further, another lawyer in and from the U.S. Senate is about as refreshing an indicator of "change" as last month's milk left in the refrigerator far too long. Beltway Biden, likewise.
8.30.2008 4:29pm
Hoosier:
(To say that this comparison is 'insane' is insane.)
8.30.2008 4:35pm
Ron Mexico:
Yeah, we shouldn't consider education or intelligence in electing a president. Instead, we should keep using the "who would I like to have a beer with?" test. Well, I guess that didn't work so well eight years---maybe it was Bush's ivy-league experience creeping through his common-man-ism. Well, this time we can do better: a VP whose sole higher education is a journalism degree from the University of Idaho. I think Biden is weak on this front too, as is McCain. Maybe it's just the elitist in me, but when did this country become so anti-intellectual to think that being governed by average, common people was a good idea?
8.30.2008 4:44pm
digoweli:
Republicans are being forced to argue against great educations. That was also what came out of the c- experience of GWB. When a person pulls themselves up and claws their way out of a societal trap and refuses to even mention their race on a Harvard application out of pride then you can count on their discipline as a given. Are we to compete against the Germans, the Chinese, the Japanese and the European Union with someone who doesn't even know the questions? The specious argument about Obama not having learned at least the culture of the West and the thought patterns of an educated person at the highest levels is still in my opinion insane. Unbalanced. Suicidal in today's world and much like the Republican dominated town the size of Juneau Alaska that elected a 19 year old adolescent as their mayor. Such a disdain for professional politics in the face of the Chinese politboro is nuts. I'll say it again. It is suicidal and nutty.
8.30.2008 5:10pm
digoweli:
Magna, not summa.


Thanks Markfield, I stand corrected.
8.30.2008 5:13pm
Hoosier:
"Maybe it's just the elitist in me, but when did this country become so anti-intellectual to think that being governed by average, common people was a good idea?"

When the faculties of the "Great Universities" decided that despising the US, and West in general, was a good career move.
8.30.2008 5:13pm
digoweli:
Mark Steyn said:Governor Palin has run a state and a town and a commercial fishing operation, whereas (to reprise a famous line on the Rev Jackson) Senator Obama ain't run nothin' but his mouth. She's done the stuff he's merely a poseur about.

Metro1 said: In 1995, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge was created to raise funds to help reform the Chicago public schools. One of the architects of the Challenge was none other than Professor Bill Ayers. Ayers co-wrote the initial grant proposal and proudly lists himself on his own website as the co-founder of the Challenge.

Palin runs as Wildlife preserve with an oil field within it. Should we compare the population ratio to the Adirondacks in upstate New York? But without the New York State roads? Bush pilots and an area that more resembles upstate New York in the 1830s than a 21st century world. Would even the best of the 18th century Presidents plopped down in 21st century America be capable of the learning curve? How about a country doctor going to Beth Israel in New York or Mount Sinai Hospital? The logic on the right is totally self-serving and illogical.

As for Metro1: Years ago I coached musical literature with the Neo-con founding father Samuel Lipman. I worked with him, partied and discussed. But his path was not my path and his excellent musical judgment did nothing, IMHO for his political judgment. You have no idea what Bill Ayers meant to Obama and besides that, Stanley Fish at the NYTimes put that all to rest with more than a little scholarly thunder and disdain. As a musician the Republican party seems to have rewritten Annie Get your Gun:

"Any mistake I thought you made, I can make bigger,
I can make any mistake I thought you made bigger than you!"
8.30.2008 5:31pm
Michael B (mail):
Hoosier, thank you. That's a better, a more incisive way to put it.
8.30.2008 5:56pm
digoweli:
Hoosier and Michael B.

That is only true on one level. To look deeper is to deal with the real history of the U.S. with the same maturity as Europeans now exhibit when they don't get politically attached to one hero or another. When America can admit it's past, accept it and make reparations for inequities that still carry down to the present then we will be less likely to have to approach the world from the position of a used car salesman trying to convince the rest of the world this is and has always been the best bargain on the block. The rest of world saw the Reagan administrations deconstruct the NEA and the Minimalist Art movement in the U.S. Indeed they benefited from the diaspora of American Artists. Today we play more Chinese and European serious new Art in America than we do our own. We are poor at knowing and accepting our own national identity. In fact we don't even really know where it came from. We can't teach science objectively and we are cutting our businesses off from the professional immigrants that they have built their expertise upon. As a result we confront our inadequately trained students using them as fodder for provencial political purposes. They aren't up to the job. So there are many layers to your comments. Meanwhile in the midst of all of this chaos the right wing continues to preach old out of date educational procedures as conservative and embarrasses us in the eyes of the world that owns our debts and plots the rape and pillage of our communities.
8.30.2008 6:11pm
MarkField (mail):

I disagree with Mark Field that there were many more qualified GOP women if you factor in that were also acceptable to the party.


If what you're saying is that formal qualifications aren't the best or only way to choose a candidate, I absolutely agree. Much of the debate has focused on the kinds of things people put on resumes: where they went to college; the jobs they held; etc. But those aren't, and shouldn't be, the extent of consideration when we elect someone. It goes far beyond that, and includes such things as political philosophy, temperment, character (fill in the blanks which aspects are important), etc.

By formal qualification, Palin pales (pun intended) in comparison to a number of female Republicans. That doesn't mean McCain was wrong to take her over the others (or over the equally or more qualified men available); it just means that other factors are important too.

Oh, and just in case the point isn't clear: this holds true for Obama as well.
8.30.2008 6:13pm
Hoosier:
digoweli
"To look deeper is to deal with the real history of the U.S. with the same maturity as Europeans now exhibit when they don't get politically attached to one hero or another."


Is this the same Europe that routinely elects followers of Jean-Marie Le Pen? Jörg Haider? Adriano Tilgher?


I mean, I'm happy to respond to your post. But I just want to make sure we're talking about the same "Europe." Because the one you're describing doesn't seem to be the one I research.
8.30.2008 6:25pm
Michael B (mail):
Reagan deconstructed the minimalist art movement?
8.30.2008 6:36pm
Hoosier:
Michael B:

Hard to answer your question. "Reagan," "minimalist," "art," and "movement" are all social constructs, lacking any essential connection between signifier and signified. But that's OK, because Europeans are smarter than we are (except for the whole toilet-paper thing.) But that's OK too, since love conquers all.
8.30.2008 7:07pm
wuzzagrunt (mail):

Ron Mexico:

Yeah, we shouldn't consider education or intelligence in electing a president. Instead, we should keep using the "who would I like to have a beer with?" test. Well, I guess that didn't work so well eight years---maybe it was Bush's ivy-league experience creeping through his common-man-ism. Well, this time we can do better: a VP whose sole higher education is a journalism degree from the University of Idaho. I think Biden is weak on this front too, as is McCain. Maybe it's just the elitist in me, but when did this country become so anti-intellectual to think that being governed by average, common people was a good idea?


If educational achievement were the sole qualification, I'd vote for the man who was last in his class at Anapolis over the HLS valedictorian.

McCain's executive experience is limited to his military command, and Palin's is admittedly pretty thin. Still, Palin has more executive experience than Obama and Biden combined.

I guess we could count Obama's experience with the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, but he doesn't seem to want that discussed. He was there so he could easily fill in the historical blanks...if he wanted to do so. If it were something he was proud of, I'd imagine we'd have heard a lot more about it by now. I can't imagine why he isn't touting that resume bullet point.
8.30.2008 7:10pm
loki13 (mail):

McCain's executive experience is limited to his military command, and Palin's is admittedly pretty thin. Still, Palin has more executive experience than Obama and Biden combined.


Aw, c'mon guys! Is there a real Republican that would've bought this argument when Dole was running against Clinton? If McCain had picked someone with no executive experience, would this have even mattered? We pick people based on a) our overall policy preferences and b) our general impressions of them. 99% of the people who have made up their minds at this point fall into category a, and I cannot imagine there is a single American (okay, maybe one, and the pollsters are looking for them right now) who is thinking, "Wow, Obama and McCain are just so balanced. But, uh that Palin has almost served a full term as Governor of Alaska. She has *executive experience* so I'll vote McCain!"

Can we puh-leeze stop projecting?
8.30.2008 7:49pm
Hoosier:
loki

Dole had executive experience.
8.30.2008 7:58pm
Bob from Ohio (mail):
I forgot about Jindal. He also would have worked but he is 37, just got elected and has a hurricane bearing down on him. I don't think he would have accepted.

Mark Field, what particular GOP women do you have in mind?

I do agree that the election process is far more complicated than who is "qualified" on paper. I don't think Obama is not qualified or experienced enough. He just is not as compared to McCain, in my view. Others may differ, we don't elect presidents based on a math formula.

"when did this country become so anti-intellectual to think that being governed by average, common people was a good idea"

I would say about 1828 when Jackson beat JQ Adams.

Though I guess maybe 1776 is a better date. It is the founding principal.
8.30.2008 8:14pm
MarkField (mail):

Mark Field, what particular GOP women do you have in mind?


You mentioned most of them above: Hutchinson, Snowe, Rice, Whitman, a couple of others. As I say, these have better formal qualifications; doesn't mean they'd be better candidates.


I would say about 1828 when Jackson beat JQ Adams.


Agreed.
8.30.2008 8:49pm
loki13 (mail):
Hoosier,

Huh? Is all 'serving in the military' now executive experience? I am really confused here . . . when did Dole have his executive experience, in your opinion? Was it the same as Kerry's? How about Gore's? Who doesn't have it, then?

(None of this is a slam on Dole. But if any of you don't get it yet . . . it doesn't matter, not in the post, not to the voters. This is a silly, newly manufactured issue. Now, we all agree that 'Governor' is an executive position, and everything else either is or isn't depending on your party affiliation.
8.30.2008 8:51pm
Dave N (mail):
Loki,

Bob Dole was Russell County Attorney from 1952 to 1960 (when he was elected to Congress). Perhaps that is the executive experience to which Hoosier is referring.
8.30.2008 9:25pm
Hoosier:
loki:

" I am really confused here . "

Yes.
8.30.2008 9:29pm
Hoosier:
" Perhaps that is the executive experience to which Hoosier is referring."

Yes.
8.30.2008 9:30pm
Thales (mail) (www):
EPluribus and A Zarkov should form a club--Sexist and Racist VC commenters. Sadly, there would be more than two members.

As for Reagan deconstructing minimalist art in America (!?!?), Steve Reich, Philip Glass and John Adams seemed to do okay during the Reagan years . . .
8.30.2008 9:37pm
loki13 (mail):
I'll bite, Hoosier. How is "County Attorney" executive experience in any meaningful way? I mean... c'mon. Head of the PTA? Head Poobah of the Condo Association? I'm trying hard not to be too snarky. Do I not understand how Kansas works? Does the county attorney run the entire county? Do they command the corn?
8.30.2008 9:51pm
Bored Lawyer:

I thought Hillary Clinton's comment was classy--a LOT classier than the initial comment from the Obama campaign. My opinion of HRC went up a notch as a result


Here, Here.
8.30.2008 10:49pm
Redphilly (mail):
She is criminally minded. She has an Al Capone mentality. If she could get her brother-in-law knocked off she would. If Obama was under investigation where do you think he would be today? Back in Chicago and Hillary would be the nominee. Barack was chastised for just listening to his preacher preach. Let's see... the so-called moral Republican evangelicals want a woman, who is not supposed to lead men as the bible says, and who abuses her power. They also want a known adulterer, (McCain) which is a sin at the 10 Commandment level. What a ticket!
8.30.2008 11:07pm
Hoosier:
Redphilly--Not only that, my brother! I've heard a rumor that McCain was IN PRISON during the late '60s! Can you imagine if it had been a DEMOCRAT with that record!

Power to the people, comrade!
8.30.2008 11:12pm
Hoosier:
loki-- "Do they command the corn?"

No one commands the corn, loki.

NO ONE!


As to county attornies: The bio I read about Dole back in '96 went into this. The position involved the work of what we in this state might call county board president. It was an admistrative position. He was the guy who signed, and whose office distributed the welfare checks. Including those to his own family.

I'm not saying it was equivalent to the secretaryship of the Treasury. But you strongly implied that he had no exectuive experience. He in fact had eight years of it.

Whether it was "meaningful" experience is for others to judge. But others can only make that judgment if *someone* gives them the facts.
8.30.2008 11:20pm
RAH (mail):
I liked Palin in February as a VP pick. As Governor she has had as much experience as Bush did as Governor of Texas or Clinton as Governor of Arkansas. The time served in a position is not always important. It depends how much one gets done in the time period.

Palin seems remarkably effective at that. A pipeline deal. Took a budget from deficit to surplus and pushed Exxon to whether drill or get off the leases. She also decided that the taxes paid by oil companies needed to be adjusted and that the prior officials had been bribed to keep taxes low. She quit that position in protest yet managed to amass sufficient evidence to get those people arrested and convicted. One of those people was the Republican state chair.

Based on the added revenue her state was able to give a rebate to her residents.
As a mayor she also dropped property taxes. Palin is a fiscal conservative in that she reduces waste and makes government more efficient.

In order to be elected governor she had to beat the old boy network, without any family money or connections. She beat an incumbent Governor of her own party against the GOP party. Then she won against a popular former Governor in the general. She did that without help from the GOP or connections in business. Her popularity is based on her crusading actions.

Palin is a throwback to politicians of our founders. A talented politician that can change and lead even if young. Her executive ability had to be good to effect changes so fast in the legislature in less than two years.

So she managed to get more done in 18 months and nine months of that she was pregnant, than many Governors do in 8 years. That is true leadership.

The problem seems to be is that what happens in Alaska seems to be non important to east or west coast people. I have heard condescending remarks because she went to a State school. Many people learn more from life’s experiences than school can teach.

Many academics seem to be book smart but street stupid. No common sense or real practical knowledge of what works and what does not.

In order to become such an accomplished Governor in such a short time she must be able to learn fast or pick good staff. Both of those qualities are important in a President.

Palin is a woman in the classical Heinlein mold. Bold, beautiful, sexy, smart, and capable and can run a state and be a great wife and mother. This woman is full of energy, she likes to run marathons. All those qualities are important for President, except being beautiful and sexy, those are just bonuses.

She is a fantastic role model for girls and women everywhere. She could be a young Ronald Reagan and reinvigorate the Republic Party as a reformer, for small government, low taxes and eliminate corruption and cronyism.

The only question is how she will handle the Washington media and the vitriol from Democrats. I really do not know but I think about the bodies of fallen politicians that she left beyond in Alaska and I think she can handle herself.

She is extremely charismatic. She appeared to win over McCain in one day. Think what she will do to the American electorate.
8.30.2008 11:57pm
GaryC (mail):
Bob from Ohio:
Are there any other GOP women governors? I don't think so. As for Senators, the Maine Twins are considered RINOs, pro-choice and too liberal. Libby Dole is in a tough reelection campaign and is a Dole. Hutchison is more experienced but is not in any way considered a star, rather boring and a Beltway hack. Any others?
8.31.2008 12:39am
loki13 (mail):
Hoosier,

Remember, for the Corn, it is not the Harvest, it is GENOCIDE!

Anyway. I tried googling this earlier (sometime between watching S2 of Dexter and watching the Tide roll over Clemson) and couldn't divine anything meaningful, but from that definition, isn't any Congressional position an executive position? They run a staff, they administer things etc. Anyway, the point being is that this whole thing has become absurd. It's like the peope pointing to running the State National Guard as being equivalent to running the military. It's all bs, because there are few good practice jobs for President (governors tends to be parochial, Congressman tend to lack 'executive experience' etc.). So whatever a person has done, the opposition can say that they are somehow lacking the magic 'it' to be President. But for the voters, it's amazingly simple:

a) Do I agree with their policies?
b) Do I think they'd be a decent President (leader) (This is the anti-Phil Gramm factor)?

That's it. Easy heuristic.
8.31.2008 12:41am
GaryC (mail):
Ok, now for the response.

There are two other sitting Republican women governors, M. Jodi Rell (R-CT) from 2004 to present, and Linda Lingle (R-HI) from 2002 to present.

Jodi Rell was the more likely alternative, since her popularity ratings with her voters have been as high as 80%, only slightly lower than Sarah Palin's numbers. She is 62, with a longer political history, but no college degree. Gov. Rell was rumored to have been on preliminary lists of potential running mates, and would have been an interesting nominee.
8.31.2008 12:45am
Hoosier:
"sometime between watching S2 of Dexter and watching the Tide roll over Clemson"

Don't know Dexter. But it was a boring day for football.
8.31.2008 12:53am
loki13 (mail):
Yeah it was! And I got friggin soaked at the game . . . no, ROUT I attended. Of course, my team won, and it was the opening game, so it was all about the atmosphere. But that was a lot of effort for a blowout.

Go Gators.
8.31.2008 1:05am
Dave N (mail):
I am wrapping it up for tonight.

But I do want to say this to Loki13:

You and I often disagree on policy issues. We are both regulars here. Today I have largely agreed with you (as I said on another thread, the Devil must be ice skating today), but even when I haven't, your posts have been gracious, witty, and thought out.

I said at the top of the thread that my estimation of HRC had gone up a notch given her response to the Palin pick. My estimation of you went up as well. Well played, sir.

We will battle in the future, perhaps trading cross words and an occassion barb, but we will always have September 30. 2008 binding us together.

And I will be first, I promise, to write a mea culpa after the election if McCain loses and also try to avoid gloating if McCain wins.
8.31.2008 1:34am
loki13 (mail):
Dave N,

I am checking out as well. Thank you for the kind words, and I will, um, ditto them (is that what the phrase is?). Anyway, should Obama lose, I promise to mea culpa. Should Obama win, I will, well, uh, darn. Yeah, I'll gloat for one post only.

Night.
8.31.2008 1:42am
LM (mail):
Federal Dog:

Is anyone really attempting to argue that people who have doctorates from Harvard are necessarily intellectually superior to those who don't?

Necessarily? No. But if by "intellectually superior" you mean more intelligent, then as a general rule, yes, that's a very safe assumption.
8.31.2008 1:50am
LM (mail):
Did I just see the airport scene from Casablanca?
8.31.2008 1:55am
Bruce Hayden (mail) (www):
"To compare an undergraduate degree in journalism from the University of Idaho to a summa cum laude Doctorate of Law from Harvard and the Editor of the most prestigeous Law Review in America is insane."
I think that this is the arrogance of the legal profession that this qualifies someone to be anything except a law professor, and maybe a lawyer.

My understanding is that the two lawyers elected to the presidency over the last half a century both lost their law licenses, at least temporarily, as a result of their illgal actions in that office. Is it a coincidence that the only two lawyers elected during that time were also the two either impeached or almost impeached?

So, tell me again why a law degree is such a great qualification for the presidency?

(In order to make this point, I ignored President Ford, who while a Yale law grad, was never elected to the Presidency).
8.31.2008 2:51am
LM (mail):

(In order to make this point, I ignored President Ford, who while a Yale law grad, was never elected to the Presidency).

Who's being the lawyer now?
8.31.2008 3:27am
Hoosier:
"Federal Dog:

Is anyone really attempting to argue that people who have doctorates from Harvard are necessarily intellectually superior to those who don't?

Necessarily? No. But if by "intellectually superior" you mean more intelligent, then as a general rule, yes, that's a very safe assumption."

Even if this were ture, why should we consider an LLB to be the equivalent of a doctorate?
8.31.2008 8:58am
LM (mail):
Hoosier,

Even if this were ture, why should we consider an LLB to be the equivalent of a doctorate?

Who said we should? And what do you mean by "Even if this were ture (sic)?" Do you really dispute that as a group, those with an advanced degree from Harvard (any degree - take your pick) are more intelligent on average than the rest of the human race?
8.31.2008 9:59am
Hoosier:
LM--"Hoosier,

Even if this were ture, why should we consider an LLB to be the equivalent of a doctorate?

Who said we should?"

Someone above did.

Oh, wait! Right. My bad. I forgot that fiat that made undergrad law degrees doctorates.

Look, I'm not saying recipients of law degrees shouldn't get to wear the robes with the striped sleeves at commencement. But saying that Obama has a "doctorate from Harvard" is correct only in the most (if I may) legalistic sense of the term. This isn't a point about Obama, so much as about people who make claims about credentials that come across as silly. Doctorate? What was the title of his dissertation? If he'd gone on for a graduate degree in law, what degree would have come next?

"Do you really dispute that as a group, those with an advanced degree from Harvard (any degree - take your pick) are more intelligent on average than the rest of the human race?"

Harvard grads *on average*? Than the average of the *"rest of the human race"*?

No, I don't dispute that. Probably better than 50-50 chance of being true.
8.31.2008 1:58pm
LM (mail):
Hoosier,

Even if this were ture, why should we consider an LLB to be the equivalent of a doctorate?

Who said we should
?"

Someone above did.

Oh, wait! Right. My bad. I forgot that fiat that made undergrad law degrees doctorates.

I was only responding in Federal Dog's exact language, and as far as I can tell you're the one brought up "LLB." You seem to be confused, but I'll stand corrected if you can point out otherwise.
8.31.2008 4:40pm
LM (mail):
Hoosier,

No, I don't dispute that. Probably better than 50-50 chance of being true.

Don't go too far out on that limb. You might find yourself admitting there's a correlation between intelligence and admission to the most academically competitive degree programs.

I don't get it. Isn't that the conservative argument?
8.31.2008 4:50pm
Harvey Mosley (mail):
"Do you really dispute that as a group, those with an advanced degree from Harvard (any degree - take your pick) are more intelligent on average than the rest of the human race?"

I will concede better educated, but I would need evidence for more intelligent.
8.31.2008 5:43pm
LM (mail):
Harvey Mosley:

I will concede better educated, but I would need evidence for more intelligent.

Would I be correct to assume you won't be voting for Barack Obama?
8.31.2008 6:01pm
Harvey Mosley (mail):
LM:

I don't know. In the five presidential elections I have been able to vote in, my record is 3 Rep and 2 Demo. If I absolutely had to choose today, right now, I would vote for the Rep ticket.

I keep hoping Obama will win me over. I really don't like McCain very much, but I do like the Palin pick. Right now, she's the difference for me.

Her lack of experience to me means it might not be business as usual if she ever makes it to the presidency.

Also, I was not referring to Obama's intellignce. I have no doubts about that. I just don't think intelligence requires attendance at a top tier school.
8.31.2008 6:18pm
LM (mail):
Harvey Mosley

Also, I was not referring to Obama's intellignce.

If I implied you were, I apologize. That wasn't my intention.

I have no doubts about that. I just don't think intelligence requires attendance at a top tier school.

No, of course not. The question is whether people with advanced degrees from Harvard are on average more intelligent than the rest of the population on average; not more so than every single person. That they are, and by a wide margin, is so far beyond dispute it's too bad an intelligent, usually reasonable person like Hoosier seems resistant to it (not that he denies it outright -- he just acknowledges it grudgingly).

I suspect the explanation, and this is why I guessed you weren't a Democrat, is ideological, not rational. Conservatives have become so hostile to the academe, some of them have lost the ability to discriminate between opinion and certain indisputable facts, e.g., that people with advanced degrees are typically more intelligent than those without.

It should concern thinking people that Republicans, once the party of high standards, have adopted the populist meme that "chardonnay-sipping Ivy elites" are no smarter than the average hard-working American. Because while that may be true in some colloquial (non-intellectual) sense, implying with broad strokes that it's true generally just insults everyone's intelligence.

As cynically stupid memes go, this one is textbook. After all, how many of its disseminators would tolerate a medical school deciding admissions by random lottery, no MCATs required? Please. These are the same people who deny there's such a thing as "otherwise qualified" if a single applicant is rejected with higher standardized test scores. At those moments they remember that words like "intelligence" and "elite" have meanings. But when it comes to actually attending an "elite" school, intelligence is shown by making the right noises about how little respect one has for it.
8.31.2008 9:57pm
Harvey Mosley (mail):
OOPS!

I'm sorry. I just noticed the "advanced degree" part. I will concede that those with an advanced degree are probably more intelligent, on average, than the rest of the population.

However, I don't concede the same for those with an undergraduate degree. There are many reasons why someone with less intelligence may get into a top tier school, while someone with more intelligence may go to the local junior or state college.

I do want to make clear, though, I was speaking of intelligence, not education. I would expect the undergrads at Harvard and so forth are getting a better education than everyone else :)

In any event, I misunderstood the claim that was made. Sorry about that.
8.31.2008 10:56pm
LM (mail):

Sorry about that.

No apologize required. Anyway, my comment and the implied criticisms weren't directed at you personally or for that matter anyone in particular.
8.31.2008 11:06pm
LM (mail):
[No apologize required? That should dispel any doubt about whether I'm the product of an elite education.]
8.31.2008 11:12pm
Hoosier:
LM--You want me perhaps to acknowledge it with bells on?

"I suspect the explanation, and this is why I guessed you weren't a Democrat, is ideological, not rational. Conservatives have become so hostile to the academe, some of them have lost the ability to discriminate between opinion and certain indisputable facts, e.g., that people with advanced degrees are typically more intelligent than those without."

Well, I have a PhD, and *I* am an idiot.

But seriously folks . . .

I am not as convinced as you are that the intelligence differential is all that high. It exists, of course, and in the direction that you (passionately, and not at all grudgingly) indicate. But I don't know how significant it is. My sense--purely from my own experience, but which is more than most will have in higher ed.--is that the great chasm is between those who go to college and those who don't. The stature of the college is significant only in a much more minor way.

I teach at an "elite research university," which enrolls something like one out of every eight applicants. The students we get are bright, but that's about it. They come from upper-middle-class families. They are driven. They care VERY MUCH about grades, and of course law/med/b-school admissions. And beer and sex. (Hey, I didn't say they were fools.)

I've had kiddos go to some of the "best" professional and grad programs. One of my senior thesis students is now at U. London. Last year's thesis student just started a grad program at Harvard this past week. Both are certainly bright.

But I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from this. That I should want to be governed by PhD's? I don't. We tried that once, with Woodrow Wilson. I'm not interested in a repeat.

That Ivy Leaguers should run the Federal Government? I've read "The Best and the Brightest" too many times to fall for that one.

That Obama is smarter than Palin? There's no proof, so the jury is still out.

Were I president ((((*shudder*))) at time of international crisis, the guy I'd want advising me, more than any other, went to VMI. Though he once gave a very famous commencement address at HAH-vuhd. But if it makes you feel better, I'd be happy to have a Harvard grad doing research for him. After the Harvard Alumni Association got us into war in Vietnam, the phrase "On tap, but not on top" was coined. That works fine for me.
8.31.2008 11:18pm
Hoosier:
"I would expect the undergrads at Harvard and so forth are getting a better education than everyone else :) "

I don't think so. The general tendency in academic circles these days is to view the best overall intellectual expereince as coming from placed like Bowdoin, Williams, Grinnell, Carleton, etc. The intensity of student contact with faculty is just impossible at an institution with the sort of publication pressures that are exerted on people like . . . me.

Even administrators *here* will say that this is the case. They just won't *do* anything about it.
8.31.2008 11:23pm
digoweli:
Michael B (mail):
Reagan deconstructed the minimalist art movement?

Hoosier:

Hard to answer your question. "Reagan," "minimalist," "art," and "movement" are all social constructs, lacking any essential connection between signifier and signified. But that's OK, because Europeans are smarter than we are (except for the whole toilet-paper thing.) But that's OK too, since love conquers all.


Just got back to this. Probably dead but will answer anyway. Michael B. Minimalism was funded by the NEA peer panels. Amongst the dancers and composers it was almost the only real source of funding. One can say that the movement grew out of the NEA at the time. Reagan destroyed the NEA peer panels and Sam Lipman reorganized it including putting a Rabbi on the panel. It was a coup by the Juilliard traditional music folks as they joined with the religious right's desire to cut out the homosexual side of the visual arts. Later Reagan put a panel together to evaluate what had been and decided to refund it but the movement had passed and been dispersed.

Hoosier, those are cute word games but they have little to do with the issue of the value of a University degree. I work in the private performing arts sector and teach as a private teacher and producer.

I have strong feelings about the value of a University and Conservatory education in the private sector. Generally I'm not all that impressed with the "diploma mill" but even in my wildest criticism I would never equate a law degree, whatever it is, from Harvard and the editor of the Law Review with an undergraduate degree in Journalism from Idaho U. That seems so far from reality that it makes no sense.

I can sit and deconstruct the problem of university and conservatory pedagogy and its failure in the world of American complex Art but I would never compare a Juilliard degree to a degree from Kansas University or the University of Oklahoma even though they have good departments. (These are programs I have a history with.) The scale makes no sense. In fact it seems like either gross irresponsibility when it concerns world diplomacy or idiocy. My degree is a Masters from a conservatory and I've worked 48 years in the performing arts in New York City. All of this conversation is very strange to someone who makes his living amongst the 2% who have succeeded and who must always consider the pragmatism of any decision. I wouldn't put the lady on the stage no matter how much she had sung in Anchorage. The world is just a great deal more complicated than that.

It still sounds like that terrible conceit of Republicans electing a 19 year old Mayor for Muskogee, Oklahoma, a town the same size as the state capital of Alaska. Do you know anything about Juneau? How is the train service or the bridges into the city? How much infrastructure is the executive truly in charge of? You have to have something to run.

I'm connected to Alaska by family. They are wonderful people but if the roles were reversed and you had to carry what you know into the tundra or polar bear country you would find that things are not equivelent. I would call them what John Warfield labeled a Trusel: Something that sounds like it transfers from one sector to another but when applied actually doesn't work and is even negative. I think very few on these lists could survive had you the responsibilities in reverse that you now blithely put on the head of poor Sarah Palin. She has spunk but she isn't showing respect. That will get her as ruined as it would you in reverse.

One more thing: I don't worship Europe but their trains run and they are currently purchasing New York City . I wouldn't make so much fun of them at this point. They might just buy you. Also it was Neo-conservative Americans that put many of the socialist programs that are now pillaging us in place after WWII. European business people, like the Japanese and Chinese, consider it to result from superior culture. With all of the trinkets and trash being funded by the American private sector, they actually have a point.
9.1.2008 12:52am
digoweli:
Having just reread the Helpful hints I hope I have not insulted or offended either of the people that I quoted or anyone else. As a performing artist in the classical arts I am very concerned with the direction that America has taken as it concerns my own area of expertise. It almost seems like children playing with matches. My passion is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings and my Indian reservation English is meant to be spoken rather than read so the inferences around what I write are often more extreme than I meant them. That being said, I enjoy this list and its elitism immensely and respect the contributors as significant scholars. Thank you for allowing me to post in such company. Digoweli
9.1.2008 1:07am
LM (mail):
Hoosier,

But I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from this. That I should want to be governed by PhD's?

Though I don't share your low regard for academics as potential leaders, I don't particularly reject it either. I'm agnostic. I just take each candidate one at a time. In the most general terms, my point was one you made recently on another thread, i.e., not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Somewhat less generally, I mean devaluing institutions that happen to be populated by people we disagree with or even dislike. We count on religion, science and higher education, to name a few, for too much that's too vital to be casually turning them into such objects of derision. It's recklessly self-destructive that there are people on both sides of the culture war indoctrinating their kids to see various bedrock institutions of civilization as malign caricatures.
9.1.2008 10:42am
theobromophile (www):
As for education... between my family and my loans, I've invested about a quarter-million dollars in my snobby education. (Let's not forget seven long, hard years to get an engineering degree and then a law degree.) Nevertheless, snobby educational credentials aside, I don't think that a graduate of Harvard (or the like) is any more qualified to run the free world than is a graduate of Idaho. The benefits of a great education - stellar professors, small classes, talented students all around you, great alumni network - are not qualifications for the Presidency.

To a certain extent, intelligence (for which a stellar education is only a proxy) is important in a President, but "more intelligent" does not equate to "more qualified." The person with an IQ of 150 is not going to, necessarily, be a better President than the person with an IQ of 120.
9.1.2008 11:47am
LM (mail):

The person with an IQ of 150 is not going to, necessarily, be a better President than the person with an IQ of 120.

Not necessarily, but putting aside whether s/he's otherwise disqualified by being a professional academic (the Hoosier rule), extra points are still an asset, not a liability. Harry Truman was a better President than Jimmy Carter, the contrary IQ relationship notwithstanding, but I'd prefer a Truman with 20 additional points to one with 20 fewer.

Sure, using intelligence as the sole criterian is a lousy way to pick most jobs, POTUS included. The same could be said for communications skills, relevant prior job experience, ideology, character, physical and mental health, etc. Choosing a President solely on any one of those criteria might be a disaster, but that doesn't make the criterion undesirable.

However you slice it, intelligence is a good thing, something we should all want in a President. The job isn't whittling or driving a bus. It's a brain job. I find it remarkable and sad how many Republicans have bought into this anti-intellectual mantra, especially since so many of them would be lost without their fine intellects.
9.1.2008 1:00pm
digoweli:
How about a CEO who can't concentrate on more than a paragraph, has a degree in theoretical physics and is addicted to the lottery of the marketplace? It's a telling point that children of a pregnant American Indian mother who drinks has kids that have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome while a pregnant mother who drank as much as described by Diana Trilling gives birth to a man who runs the company. The physical symptoms are the same but the result depends upon..... Will Trig become a governor because his mother was?

A quarter of a million dollars for an undergraduate education is the normal amount for a Performing Artist who pays for his private lessons from the age of four and continues after graduation. "Matriculation" and "certification" in a performance system is often irrelevant to success. The same could be said for many athletes. I've certainly paid more a quarter million for mine as a Performing Artist.

The one thing this makes clear to me, as an Artist, is the necessity to pay attention to whether the person being hired for a job knows (not understands) the system and can work within it. The system of the nation requires knowledge of the whole.

This is not an academic problem of framing but is a problem of Democracy where the person has to be able to define the problems, surround themselves with people who can articulate the problematique, put that problematique through the most contemporary rigorous system's analysis and then find people who can come up with a serious order of resolution that is good for the Nation as a whole and causes the least damage to the nation's citizens.

We don't need for the nation to resemble the capitalist world described by Karl Marx. That is not, IMHO, governing. Nor is it the system defined by the Founding Fathers for American government as opposed to the parliamentary systems found elsewhere. We need an expert in this system. Not a Parliamentarian or a business executive. Those are different systems and bound to clog up this one or just create outright failure. That is showing that we have not escaped the analysis of a 19th century philosopher and have not proven our worthiness to survive in this new century.

In my work, you can either do the work or you can't. My work is a performance system. I believe the Presidency is as well. Obama has proven that he can do the election work and he has deliberately studied the system from the ground up from the ghetto to Academia to the Legislature.

I don't believe much in genius. I don't believe success in a serious performance job is based much on genes but on whether the person has developed the self knowledge of their own psycho-instrument, its values and potentials and has studied the system well that they plan to perform within. I believe in hard work and Practical IQ.

Both Obama and Palin are clever but Palin hasn't done her homework for what she is applying for and the system where she is competent is not the same system that McCain has picked her to run for. I think everyone should study the solo opera that Louis Ballard the Quapaw classical composer wrote about that man who was lost in the Alaskan woods and died. But not before he had written a haunting journal about the poor interface between his reality and the "ghosts" of the forest.

Naturally, since this is America, the opera has never been produced but we're intimately knowledgeable about the latest music of Tan Dun a Communist product. Digoweli
9.1.2008 1:19pm
Rebecca Whiting (mail):
Granted Palin is a woman with an opinion (terrific - how rare), but if something were to happen to McCain (age and Asian Orange can't help) would any individual with a bit of reason entrust running our nation to her? Whatever happened to politicians with graduate studies and honors at that? Grassroots leadership is no longer a prudent choice in this complicated world. We need educated, experienced leaders; not a hockey mom. Ugh!
9.3.2008 12:11pm