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Palin a huge hit at the Clinton Forum.--

You would not believe how the Sarah Palin pick is playing out at the Hillary Clinton Forum (tip to a VC commenter). In order, these are all the posts on the first (and only) page I've looked at (page 8 of the Palin thread; this link may not point to exactly the same posts). I cut out headers and footers only.

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________________________________________
Wow, Thanks so much to this Sarah Palin who never forgot us. She is a fighter. She paid her respects to our Hillary and Geraldine . They now no more think women in this country are 2nd class. You go girl and thank you for a refreshing pick Sen. McCain.

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i wish i could see the look on obamas face when he heard this vp pick

Or Michelles. "Why'd he go and do that!"

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I am going over to John McCain's website and thank her for acknowledging the glass ceiling and our struggles. She needs to know that there are LOTS of us behind her fight.

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Maybe those 18 million cracks will help her shatter the ceiling!

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________________________________________
You can bet that BO did not see this coming.

I'm listening to his acolyte now on MSNBC, Andrea Mitchell. The tone of her voice and this almost choking quality of her words tells me that she sees this as a real problem for her guy, BO. (I'm gleeful.)

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________________________________________
gave John McCain a standing ovation and a 10 minute claps. It did not matter that there was no one around except my dog to share that.

Hats off! Bigtime!!

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Sarah visiting a wounded soldier in Germany.

Remember just a short while ago Obama would not visit the wounded soldiers in Germany but he would take take to play the rock idol there.

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Geraldine Ferraro is a very astute woman!

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obama made the biggest mistake of his career not choosing Hillary. The Democrats got behind obama so much they didn't even realize what they were doing trying to push Hillary out of the picture. I'm sure Hillary is not happy obama did not make her but she is probably laughing now and preparing for 2012 campaign with the slogan "I told you so"

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I am thrilled her speech was genuine, and promising!!!!! Let's go Forum, we have a mission.

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Obama did not see that coming! I'm sure a lot of people didn't see it coming. Great job by the McCain campaign to keep things very hush hush!

McCAIN / PALIN '08

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________________________________________
Wow. I've been listening to 98.7 Kluv, and they keep cranking out songs about women. They're really celebrating, too! The last one I heard was, "Treat her like a Lady!" TOOOOOOOOOO cool.

These are the only Clinton Forum comments I've read so far — no cherry-picking. Incredible!

UPDATE: In the comments below, someone is so stunned by this outpouring that he thinks the Clinton Forum is a Republican site. It's a real site for die-hard Clinton supporters. I've now read posts going back to March (the forum started in February).

If the McCain Campaign had such brilliant and energetic grassroots supporters that they could plant 300,000 pro-Hillary comments on one website starting in February, selling Hillary merchandize, and raising money for Hillary -- all the while knowing that Hillary would lose nonetheless, I would be very impressed (and more than a bit frightened). Can the McCain campaign even get 300,000 comments on their OWN campaign website, let alone a fake one?

No, it's a real site, and many recent posters are longtime members of it. That some of you doubted it just proves my point: this outpouring is amazing.

Frog Leg (mail):
These are not likely Democrats. It just looks like the GOP was ready with an online blitz. How did someone already have the campaign bumper sticker ready to stick in? Good job on the ad blitz.
8.29.2008 2:36pm
Casper the Friendly Guest:
Hillary Clinton ain't much of a leader if her supporters are so willing to abandon her lead and vote for McCain. Some of these women are complete nutjobs. Still, a vote is a vote, and McCain's Hail Mary pass may just result in a touchdown.
8.29.2008 2:37pm
Archon (mail):
I think this aptly demonstrates that the last white dudes club is going to have to close up shop sometime in the next decade.

In January we will have either the first black president or the first woman vice president. Even if McCain wins and doesn't shut the club down this year, with Hillary and Palin standing by it is more than likely one will become President at sometime.
8.29.2008 2:38pm
J. Aldridge:
Polls been suggesting 25% +/- of Hillary supporters will vote McCain if BO is the candidate.

P.S. I like to see a post on the federal suit that claims Obama was born in Kenya and not HI.
8.29.2008 2:39pm
Lawyer (mail):
Whoever convinced McCain to choose Palin deserves Political Strategist of the Year.
8.29.2008 2:45pm
EH (mail):
Can we get at least some acknowledgement or awareness of the concept of astroturfing?
8.29.2008 2:46pm
Sarcastro (www):
These people seem genuine to me! My first clue was the wounded soldiers in Germany discussion. I know EVERY liberal I talk to can't stop talking about that!

And bringing up Michelle Obama's anger at this pick is a tried and true tactic of those who might have supported Obama.
8.29.2008 2:46pm
RPT (mail):
We will now be better prepared for the Russian invasion across the Bering Strait.
8.29.2008 2:46pm
EH (mail):
Oh, and how long before we start seeing .sigs and slogans like "MCCAIN IS MY PAL IN '08"
8.29.2008 2:47pm
Actually...:
It won't last. Hillary style feminists won't be thrilled once they find out Palin's positions on abortion, etc.

I suppose she may pick up the women-voting-for-any-woman segment, but is that really a very significant demographic? I know the last few polls showed McCain was hurting with the ladies, but he's still the man at the top of the ticket, so I doubt he'll get the full "pickup" there.
8.29.2008 2:47pm
Robert S. Porter (mail) (www):
I will echo the thoughts that these probably aren't genuine democrats. However, I have seen them interviewed at the convention and they do exist. I would say anyone that would jump from Clinton to Palin simply because they're female shouldn't be voting.
8.29.2008 2:49pm
lmao:
From the sligtly hysterical quality of comments trying so hard to be dismissive of Palin, you can tell that the Dems are rattled...
8.29.2008 2:49pm
Archon (mail):

I know EVERY liberal I talk to can't stop talking about that!

My experience also. At lunch, there was a bunch of liberals at the table behind us who couldn't believe it. The only attack they had against her was that is was merely "pandering."

Gees...I guess you can't win. You pick an old white guy and you are accused of supporting a patriachal institution. You pick a woman and you are accused of pandering.
8.29.2008 2:49pm
J. Aldridge:
They know but abortion isn't driving their cause.
8.29.2008 2:50pm
PLR:
That's a right wing site, Lindgren. What kind of fools do you take us for?
8.29.2008 2:53pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
I look forward to reproaching dems for being afraid of a strong, independent woman.
8.29.2008 2:57pm
great unknown (mail):
Astroturfing? And I suppose the interviews of Geraldine Ferraro, who also seems to be quite ecstatic about the Palin selection, are actually by Republican imposters.
8.29.2008 2:57pm
Justin (mail):
Dem4McCain was clearly undecided before this pick.
8.29.2008 3:00pm
whit:
Spend a few minutes on democraticunderground. They are completely apoplectic. It's beautiful. "progressives" women and men are making fun of her LOOKS (she is actually attractive imo in a tina fey hot librarian way fwiw imo), and my favorite comments are that she is a nobody that is just riding mccain's coattails. This is from hillary sycophants... y'know the woman that rose to fame as the WIFE of a politician vs. a woman who did it on her own.

It's a brilliant choice. I was hoping he'd choose a woman, frankly. And they are livid about Palin's Hillary comments. It is really too beautiful. You can HEAR the seething in every post.

I am loving this.

Talk about stealing Obama's fire!
8.29.2008 3:01pm
alkali (mail):
@Lawyer: Whoever convinced McCain to choose Palin deserves Political Strategist of the Year.

Possibly. It would depend on their motivation for doing so.
8.29.2008 3:01pm
Actually...:
I, for one, welcome the impending raft of Ferraro-as-GOP-plant accusations.
8.29.2008 3:01pm
Sarcastro (www):
[Archon it is fun to watch either side flail about before its talking points are arrainged, isn't it? Dems got nothing at the moment!]
8.29.2008 3:02pm
Perry:
I think that the only thing dismissed here is McCain's ability to take on Obama as inexperienced. Its hard to level that at someone when you're a health problem away from having someone run the country who has 18 months of Gubernatorial experience and 1 year serving on an appointed commission to her belt.

(Which in no way is a reflection of the kind of job that she may or may not be able to do, but certainly suggests that having a ton of experience must not be THAT important for an executive position)
8.29.2008 3:02pm
Steve:
I asked my wife, who is a somewhat disgruntled Hillary supporter, what she thought of the pick. She said, "Why would I be interested in voting for someone who believes the opposite of Hillary on every issue?" Somehow, I'm guessing that's a reaction more typical of Democratic women.
8.29.2008 3:05pm
kevin r (mail):
I asked my wife, who is a somewhat disgruntled Hillary supporter, what she thought of the pick. She said, "Why would I be interested in voting for someone who believes the opposite of Hillary on every issue?" Somehow, I'm guessing that's a reaction more typical of Democratic women.


Conservative VP unlikely to win over Democrats: news at 11.
8.29.2008 3:09pm
Matthew K:
Err, you do realize what that site actually is, don't you?
8.29.2008 3:09pm
Archon (mail):

"Why would I be interested in voting for someone who believes the opposite of Hillary on every issue?"

There are some women who hold the idea of gender so high that they will grudging vote for McCain simply because it will advance the cause of their gender.
8.29.2008 3:11pm
Aultimer:

Robert S. Porter

I would say anyone that would jump from Clinton to Palin simply because they're female shouldn't be voting.


If "identity politics" should be generally precluded, would any of the last thirty-odd elections have come out the same?
8.29.2008 3:11pm
Smokey:
Palin is unqualified because she lacks experience?? She has more executive experience than the other three candidates combined.

IMHO, the Obama camp's criticism of Palin won't resonate with women voters. It is intended to be insulting, and it is ['What do you expect? She's only a woman.'] Watch the Obama machine's desperate backing and filling begin.

I don't presume to speak for women, but after talking with my wife [a middle school Principal with lots of female teacher friends who hold strong opinions on this], it looks like plenty of women are starting to look at the Obama/Biden ticket very differently now.

Obama would have been smart to pick Hillary or another female candidate. The fact that he chose one of the good ol' boys, when he should have balanced the ticket in favor of the female half of the population, makes a mockery of his mantra of "change."
8.29.2008 3:19pm
Sarcastro (www):
Smokey has Women's number! All they see is gender. Silly women.

Though he shouldn't use "good ol' boys" as a phrase - it makes him sound like those whitey-hating Dems.
8.29.2008 3:26pm
Monch:
I don't know anything about Palin. Information about Palin is scant. But from the little information that I've read about her, she doesn't compare to Hillary.

McCain loves models.
8.29.2008 4:18pm
JohnCK (mail):
"she doesn't compare to Hillary."

You are right, Palin got ahead on her own and not because she married a successful husband and put up with his falandering.
8.29.2008 4:34pm
EH (mail):
JohnCK:
You are right, Palin got ahead on her own and not because she married a successful husband and put up with his falandering.


She and Cindy should get along fine, then.
8.29.2008 4:57pm
brad (mail):
my wife was intrigued once it she was announced and positively giddy watching and after Palin's speech. We'll see how Palin does in the debate and on the stump, but for now I see her as a positve for McCain.
8.29.2008 5:06pm
Jim at FSU (mail):
Philandering.
8.29.2008 5:07pm
EH (mail):
Where did this "looks like Tina Fey" meme come from? Palin looks more like Pelosi or that other pro-life celebrity Patricia Heaton and nothing like Fey. In fact, I'd say anybody who says she looks like Fey does not know what Tina Fey looks like.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the purpose of the newbie posters here is to establish the "more executive experience than everybody else COMBINED" idea. It's being asserted verbatim from multiple names.
8.29.2008 5:15pm
Justin (mail):
The site is a PUMAs site, Jim. At one point it was, like mydd.com, a democratic Clinton site. But since Obama won the election, the only people who still post there are PUMAs, who support McCain. They have daily McCain fundraising threads, for chrissake. You are being disingenuous.
8.29.2008 5:16pm
The Ace:
I asked my wife, who is a somewhat disgruntled Hillary supporter, what she thought of the pick. She said, "Why would I be interested in voting for someone who believes the opposite of Hillary on every issue?" Somehow, I'm guessing that's a reaction more typical of Democratic women.

And I just spoke with someone who was a huge Hillary! supporter and she said that she can't wait to vote for McCain.
8.29.2008 5:16pm
The Ace (mail):
I asked my wife, who is a somewhat disgruntled Hillary supporter, what she thought of the pick. She said, "Why would I be interested in voting for someone who believes the opposite of Hillary on every issue?" Somehow, I'm guessing that's a reaction more typical of Democratic women.

And I just spoke with someone who was a huge Hillary! supporter and she said that she can't wait to vote for McCain.
8.29.2008 5:17pm
Steve White (mail) (www):
To the person at the website who wrote, <I>You can bet that BO did not see this coming.</I>, I beg to differ. I'm not a Democrat, but I imagine each of the campaigns thoroughly researched any person who was remotely suggested as a VP nominee. Gov. Palin's name was in play for a couple months, so I'm sure that upon Sen. McCain's announcement, Sen. Obama was handed a fat file about her.
8.29.2008 5:17pm
The Ace (mail):
An American Hero and smart, articulate and attractive woman vs. the candidate endorsed by Kim Il Jong and Senator Amtrak.
Gee, I wonder what is going to happen?
8.29.2008 5:19pm
James Lindgren (mail):

PLR wrote:
That's a right wing site, Lindgren. What kind of fools do you take us for?



No, it's not. To quote you, "What kind of fools do you take us for?" You know, you might have bothered to click on the site before posting (assuming you aren't a troll intentionally misleading people).

You don't get nearly 300,000 pro-Clinton comments from a Republican site founded in February. (I suspect that the McCain grassroots organization, if one even exists, can barely get that much energy on real Republican sites, let alone on a fake one.)

I've now read a lot of comments from threads in March, June and July and you are wrong. These are real -- and real angry -- Clinton supporters. And consider this typical page from March.

That you can't believe that die-hard Hillary Clinton supporters could be almost uniformly thrilled by the Palin pick (assuming you aren't a troll) justifies my posting this.

The comments of the Hillary supporters were a shock to me and such a shock to you that you didn't even bother to check before attacking.
8.29.2008 5:19pm
MarkField (mail):
I suspect Hilary supporters will temper their enthusiasm once word gets out that Gov. Palin criticized their idol for "whining" (video #2).

There's an interesting dynamic here. Obama has received repeated criticism here for being an "affirmative action" choice (not by everyone, just by some). I haven't yet seen that pejorative phrase applied to Gov. Palin, but consistency would seem to require it.
8.29.2008 5:28pm
Hoosier:
There's an interesting dynamic here. Obama has received repeated criticism here for being an "affirmative action" choice (not by everyone, just by some). I haven't yet seen that pejorative phrase applied to Gov. Palin, but consistency would seem to require it.

Not at all. You see, the Obama fans on here convinced everyone that it wasn't true!
8.29.2008 5:35pm
Toby:
Clearly, adding an actual governor with better than 80% aproval form her state can be nothing but pandering...
8.29.2008 5:39pm
MarkField (mail):

Not at all. You see, the Obama fans on here convinced everyone that it wasn't true!


Heh.
8.29.2008 5:40pm
oo7angel (mail) (www):
To the stOOPID Obamabots on this blog that think we are a group of Republicans..methinks you are askeerd! I've voted twice and that was for Gore and Kerry. I voted for Hillary in my primary and will be voting for McCain in NOVEMBER.

Keep digging your head in the sand and think we don't exist or are real Democrats. I've put up with your shit for MONTHS on a many of blogs and watched the sexism and outright hatred of Hillary and women from your darling DNC and disgusting media. I still get misogynist comments from you sickos on YouTube almost daily. You brought this on yourselves.

Say hello to OCTOBER SURPRISE.
8.29.2008 5:43pm
Be Afraid:
Jim updated his original post to say:
If the McCain Campaign had such brilliant and energetic grassroots supporters that they could plant 300,000 pro-Hillary comments on one website starting in February, selling Hillary merchandize, and raising money for Hillary -- all the while knowing that Hillary would lose nonetheless, I would be very impressed (and more than a bit frightened).
Perhaps you should be more than a bit frightened, but for another reason. As my wife pointed out upon hearing next week's weather report for the Gulf Coast this morning: "McCain's done for. Obama can even control the weather! [extended speculation on the likely powers of the Antichrist omitted]"
8.29.2008 5:44pm
PLR:
The comments of the Hillary supporters were a shock to me and such a shock to you that you didn't even bother to check before attacking.

False. I was at another site where a link was provided to that page, so i was fully familiar with it.

See the comment of justin at 4:16, and why the people posting these days are not the supporters of Hillary from her abandoned campaign.

Frankly, it shouldn't have been necessary for either justin or me to point out that those people cannot possibly be disgruntled Hillary supporters.
8.29.2008 5:44pm
Hoosier:
My Cynical Question of the Week:

So now Hillary

A) Wants McCain to lose, since whe doesn't want Palin to have a shot a being the first female POTUS;

OR

B) Wants McCain to win, since a defeat might be blamed in part on "Americans not being ready to have a woman in the White House"

?
8.29.2008 5:48pm
Dave N (mail):
Geraldine Ferraro, that obvious Republican partisan hack, sounded very happy that McCain chose a woman today, and very upset at the Democratic Party.

Governor Palin made a point of identifying both Ferraro and Hillary Clinton as trailblazers, paying proper homage in her own first speech in Dayton.

I suspect the anger on that site is real. However, I am also realistic enough to realize that many angry Clinton supporters will stay with their ancesteral allegience in November.
8.29.2008 5:49pm
Hoosier:
See the comment of justin at 4:16, and why the people posting these days are not the supporters of Hillary from her abandoned campaign.

And Oswald could not have been acting alone.
8.29.2008 5:49pm
ron:
what happens when kossacks invades that web-site and start bashing? oooo its gonna be fun to watch the kosheads destroy themselves.....
8.29.2008 5:52pm
PC:
A Republican picks a pro-life, pro-gun, creationist that wants to teach intelligent design in schools. How mavericky.
8.29.2008 5:52pm
2495:
Like Jim, I spent several minutes (about 20, actually) looking at the old threads. This indeed seems to be a site set up by die-hard Hillary supporters. Either that, or the Republicans planned out this whole thing with impeccable precision months before they knew how this would end up.

And WFIW, my wife also says she's voting for McCain now (she actually said she's voting for "Palin," but whatever).
8.29.2008 5:56pm
Mark Rockwell (mail):
Step right up. Step right up. Get your token oppressed minority action figure right here. They're going fast. They're going fast. Don't be the last in line. Collect the whole set.


kinda smacks of shrewd political opportunism. which of course it is. but damn....
8.29.2008 6:03pm
S. valenti (mail):
I've enjoyed reading these comments as much as I've enjoyed hearing that we disgruntled Hillary supporters just needed a few days past the contentious primaries to fall in line with BO. Well, they're still waiting. It's not going to happen. My message to my fellow Hillary supporters is the following: It took John McCain and the Republican Party to give Hillary and all her supporters the respect she and we deserve. Gov. Palin is not Hillary but she seems awesome and many of us will embrace her. My respect for John McCain just grows and grows. Tomorrow, as the newness of his pick begins to fade, the story will be how John McCain - not Obama - understood the depth of our hopes and dreams. For that, he has my vote.

McCain/Palin will be working with a solidly Democratic majority. No one has anything to worry about as far as Roe v. Wade or the Supreme Court is concerned. In fact, there's a lot to be said about having a Republican President in 2008 (if it can't be a centrist like Hillary). They will put the brakes on the more leftist leanings of Reid and Pelosi et. Al. This is a good day.
8.29.2008 6:04pm
Hoosier:
Mark Rockwell

Are selling any action figures of disabled lesbian Eskimos?
8.29.2008 6:04pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
lindgren:

You don't get nearly 300,000 pro-Clinton comments from a Republican site founded in February.


It's worth noticing that hillaryclintonforum.net now has 319,433 messages, but it's also worth noticing that it has a grand total of only 4,533 registered members. That's about 70 each. In other words, this is a small group of very motivated people. So whether or not it's literally astro-turfing, it's silly to see this an indication of some massive phenomenon. I think we already knew that there were easily 5,000 angry PUMAs who were backing McCain even if his veep was Warren Jeffs or Richard Speck. So I don't think "this outpouring is amazing." If the site had 300,000 comments from that many separate users (or even one-tenth that many), that would be a very different story.
8.29.2008 6:05pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):
This is a cool chick- hunts, fishes, has a real cat for a husband... she makes Obama look like a pu**y.

(walks away laffin')
8.29.2008 6:07pm
Hoosier:
On the Hillary supporters issue:

I can see why people would be skeptical that Hillary supporters would switch allegiance to McCain now that he's chosen Gov. Palin. But there's an "internal" number that I'd like to know. (And I'm not suggesting I have the answer. I legitimately don't know.)

How many Hillary supporers were enthused more because she was a woman than because they are liberal Democrats? There must have been some, but I could not guess at a percentage.

There seem to me to be likely defectors. Not women who belong to NOW and NARAL. But woman who don't have a firm party affiliation, but who want the "glass ceiling shattered."

IF we could know how many of these there were, we'd have a better idea of what the impact of this choice might be.
8.29.2008 6:09pm
Hoosier:
What is a "PUMA"?
8.29.2008 6:10pm
Dave N (mail):
Hoosier,

Maybe now Hillary is thinking--"Now we can be real groundbreaking, Senator Clinton vs. Vice President Palin in 2012--it's gonna be a woman any way people vote." Or shorter version "It's gonna be so cool for the first female President to win by defeating the first female Vice President."
8.29.2008 6:12pm
loki13 (mail):
I am, as usual amazed that every choice and event is always good (no, GREAT) for the Republican party and horribly damaging to Democratic party . . . if you're a Republican hack.

Conversely, I'm equally amazed that every choice is always good for the Democratic party and horrible for the Republicans if you're a Democrat hack.

Meanwhile, the small percentage of Americans who actually haven't made up their minds still *don't care*, and won't for a while. Good to see everyone frothing, though.

PS- Jim at FilanderingSU . . . TTT!

Go Gatorz!
8.29.2008 6:14pm
James Lindgren (mail):
Justin,

Did I write anything that suggested anything other than that these are very angry Clinton supporters who are now thrilled with the Palin choice? PLR claimed that it was a "Republican" site. PUMAs by definition are DEMOCRATS who refuse to join in unity with other Democrats.

That these die-hard Hillary supporters now want Palin (and are enthusiastic about her) is what my post was about.

Frankly, I find such strong identity politics somewhat troubling.
8.29.2008 6:15pm
loki13 (mail):

Maybe now Hillary is thinking--"Now we can be real groundbreaking, Senator Clinton vs. Vice President Palin in 2012--it's gonna be a woman any way people vote." Or shorter version "It's gonna be so cool for the first female President to win by defeating the first female Vice President."


Yeah... that's just it! You're just like Mel Gibson in "What Women Want". How did you get your amazing Clinton mind reading powers? Forsooth, does Bill want a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder?
8.29.2008 6:17pm
S. valenti (mail):
To Justin @ 4:16

Have no doubt that we're steadfast Clinton supporters (some Obama people have used the unfortunate term -deadenders). I won't speak for other forum members but I'll make the following point to establish why it's not a stretch to move from Hillary to McCain. McCain has always been the only republican I feared who could win against Hillary. You see, for many of us, his experience and background are solid. He's a maverick and willing to take on the establishment. He has principles. Though I'm pro-choice, I'm not persuaded by the rantings of liberal democrats that Roe v. Wade (and the Supreme Court) is in danger if McCain wins. We'll have a solid Democratic majority, they'll guard against any radical changes McCain might want to make - but I'm not worried about McCain. He's not a radical.

btw: I first joined the Forum in March when I became frustrated with the DNC's inability to manage and effective, fair-minded primary process.

Whoever (in the Obama camp) decided it made sense to smear the reputation of the one democrat elected to a full eight year term in over 60 years to try to keep Hillary from getting the nomination made a serious miscalculation when they assumed Clinton supporters would forget their insults. Let's see if BO can win this election without us.
8.29.2008 6:20pm
ChrisIowa (mail):

How many Hillary supporers were enthused more because she was a woman than because they are liberal Democrats? There must have been some, but I could not guess at a percentage.

There seem to me to be likely defectors. Not women who belong to NOW and NARAL. But woman who don't have a firm party affiliation, but who want the "glass ceiling shattered."


As far as I can tell in Iowa, McCain has had trouble firming up support from the religious right. That has been now accomplished.

The number of women who will vote for McCain because of Palin will not be huge, but will be enough that I think Iowa will now go for McCain.
8.29.2008 6:20pm
PLR:
These are the PUMAs. They don't seem terribly numerous according to this source.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/08/26/pumas/

I did not say the topic site was a Republican site, I said it was a right wing site. I stand corrected as to its historical provenance, but I maintain that the anonymous people who now post on that site are not in fact Democrats who at one time supported Hillary Clinton during the primary, and that the nature and volume of the posts makes that readily apparent.

Contrary evidence is welcome.
8.29.2008 6:21pm
DNL (mail):
Hoosier: "People United Means Action" or "Party Unity My A**". (I had to look it up, too.) I added a note at http://re.search.wikia.com/search.html#PUMA :)
8.29.2008 6:23pm
Justin (mail):
Jim, you claimed that it was "Incredible" that a bunch of John McCain supporters liked Palin and hated Obama. Shockers of shockers. You omitted the fact that they were already McCain supporters. And you still do so. You're now sheepishly (but indignantly) admitting it, but claiming you never said otherwise. And if someone doesn't check the comments, its STILL implied that these are just "diehard supporters of Hillary Clinton." No, these are a few dozen, maybe a hundred or two of "diehard supporters of Hillary Clinton [and trolls - a lot of July and August joiners]" who NOW SUPPORT McCAIN.

And thus, I stick to my original claim. Your post is incredibly disingenuous. And it so remains.
8.29.2008 6:29pm
m:
This seems to support the site's posters being Democrats who at one time supported Hillary Clinton during the primary:

http://tinyurl.com/5s9rqf
8.29.2008 6:30pm
Justin (mail):
Chris, Iowa, really?

Iowa is currently not a swing state. If McCain wins Iowa, he's winning going away. So to claim that it's enough to win Iowa, but it is only a modest game, is somewhat of a contradiction.
8.29.2008 6:31pm
m:
I'll try that again:

http://tinyurl.com/5vld7y
8.29.2008 6:33pm
godelmetric (mail):
"McCain's done for. Obama can even control the weather!
Bet Karl Rove wishes he had thought of that line instead of the one he actually gave.
8.29.2008 6:37pm
Justin (mail):
m, maybe third time is the charm.
8.29.2008 6:39pm
Morat20 (mail):
I think the media obsession with PUMAs has probably done more to aide Obama's candidacy than anything else, if it got McCain to pick Palin.

No offense to Palin, whom I happen to think is probably one of the better VP choices he could have made -- he had few good ones this year, after all.

She will shore up a lot of base wavering among the evangelicals, but at the cost of negating McCain's two favorite and probably most effective attack lines -- experience, and "Foreign Policy".

That seems like a really awful political choice to me, so either his base situation is worse than I am aware of or he is desperately counting on the PUMAs to aid him. I can't imagine the latter, given even a marginally honest pollster or strategist would point out the problems with that -- and if he wanted PUMAs, why not Hutchison, Rice, Snowe, Carla -- a dozen older, more experienced heavyweight GOP females?

In the end, it's a rather desperate gamble to think there are enough females SO ANGRY that a woman didn't win the Democratic primary that they will, en masse, vote for McCain because his VP has ovaries -- despite being the absolute political opposite of Hillary.

I suspect Palin was chosen to shore up the base, to try to defuse women's issues as part of the debate, and probably hoping to make the maverick look sparkle.

I think what he succeeded in doing was in so confusing the media that today's storyline was basically "McCain Picked Who? Who is that? What?", which will really sandbag any quick gains out of sheer muddled confusion, and long-term he just cost himself his best attacks.

Oh, and anyone saying "PALIN HAS MORE EXECUTIVE EXPERIENCE THAN OBAMA AND BIDEN COMBINED" probably needs to up their meds. As a talking point, that's not going to convince anyone but the choir -- and judging by the intitial reaction, the choir's currently still choking on the choice proper. They'll swallow rationalizations later.
8.29.2008 6:42pm
Thomas_Holsinger:
Lawyer,

She was probably on McCain's personal short list from the beginning. McCain has a record of making inconsistent policy decisions based on personal (to him) criteria.

His selection of Palin looks mighty like another one of those.

President Bush makes most of his policy decisions based on a consensus of his advisors. McCain is much, much more likely to follow his gut feelings in such matters. This is important given that he will likely be elected President.
8.29.2008 6:47pm
A Conservative Teacher (mail) (www):
For the record, here is Sarah Palin's experience, according to wikipedia. She served two on the Wasilla City Council from 1992 to 1996. She was major of Wasilla from 1996 to 2002 (?). She then served Ethics Commissioner from 2003 to 2004. Then she was elected Governor in 2006, till present. That's 14 years of elected office, of which 8 were as an executive.

Barack Obama's experience is as a state senator from 1996 to 2004, followed by US senate from 2004 to today. That's 12 years of elected office, of which 0 are as an executive.

What's that about lack of experience? Obama still losses the game, and should lose the election.
8.29.2008 6:49pm
m:
Justin: Don't I wish. Bad luck with tiny URL or with the "link" function, so far!

http://tinyurl.com/5s9rqf

and scroll to the comment by Murray Lipp.

Fingers crossed.
8.29.2008 6:51pm
Justin (mail):
For everyone, m's link says the following:

Hillaryclintonforum.net is owned by Murray Lipp, a 20 something Australian who recently relocated to NYC.

He has no credentials as a supporter of the Democratic Party, does not have any known history of voting for democrats, and had turned hcf.net into an attack site of the DNC and the Democratic Nominee for President. Their entire goal at this point is to elect John McCain in November.

Remember what happens when you lie down with dogsā€¦.
8.29.2008 7:10pm
Justin (mail):
A Conservative teacher, you really sold me. The mayor of my hometown of Lawrence, NY, has been mayor for 30 years. And he's a republican - why wasn't he chosen?
8.29.2008 7:11pm
Thomas_Holsinger:
A Conservative Teacher,

Barrack Obama has successfully won a long, grueling, campaign for the Democratic nomination as President. That is an incredible learning experience.

18 months ago he was about as qualified to be President as Sarah Palin is now. That is no longer true. Now he is more qualified than she is. He has grown during the campaign. So did Hillary - IMO Hillary Clinton grew more than Obama did, but he won and she didn't. That's life. People grow and change. Palin will too.

I certainly hope that neither Obama nor Palin become President in the next twelve months, but for quite different reasons.
8.29.2008 7:15pm
Michael B (mail):
Is this truly so "amazing"?

Not all Dems are Left/Dems, certainly not in any type of categorical sense, with an ideological ax to grind or a hackneyed, "beltway" outlook derived from watching Chris Matthews & Co. Certainly, it would be amazing if it represented 30% or 40% of the Democrats, or anywhere close to that, but no one is suggesting that is the case. Too, McCain, if a bit too idiosyncratically at times, is a genuine maverick rather than an unthinking party loyalist (and Palin dovetails with that ethos to a notable degree). Essentially, I just don't see where this phenomenon is all that "amazing". And it isn't simple identity politics that is driving this, that's a bit too cynical and simplistic and while it's a valid consideration, it's also a notion that sells too many people short. Despite the tempers of the times and the Obama-as-Savior phenomenon, not everyone is a homo politicus or homo economicus, first and foremost.
8.29.2008 7:16pm
m:
No, Justin. Scroll down to the comment *by* Murray Lipp, not to the earlier comment that mentions him--and which he debunks.

Were you being disingenuous there? What, I can't get the "link" function to work, so you're going to misrepresent my point?
8.29.2008 7:21pm
AndrewK (mail):
18 months ago he was about as qualified to be President as Sarah Palin is now.


I have a problem with this on three levels.

(1) IF true, and IF Palin is unqualified as the Obama campaign suggests, then 18 months ago Obama knew he was unqualified and still felt entitled enough to run. So this would reflect poorly on Obama.

(2) I think Palin still has more executive experience than Obama, period.

(3) On the other hand, Obama is the product of Chicago machine politics. He has to be a very capable, smoky back room kinda guy to be able to succeed there. So I have a feeling Obama is more capable than the RNC would have you believe. Just because you don't know what the guy has accomplished doesn't mean he's inexperienced-- what about the shady party bosses during the Soviet era?
8.29.2008 7:28pm
rarango (mail):
my take: I am NOT impressed with either of the presidential candidates--I think Palin is an up and comer and McCains selection has positioned her for future leadership in the republican party and portends well for changing its image.
Palin's pick impresses me as a pick aimed at republicans not democrats--its shores up mccains wavering conservative base, and may win a few conservative democrats--and tactically it took some of the wind out of Obama's and the dems convention bounce and will dominate talk show dribble on Sunday. Reinforces his maverick status. Purely a republican audience with some wavering dems who might peel off. And to some extent it takes experience off the table because that isnt Obamas strong suit either--and contrast Palin against Biden.
All in all a great tactical choice, but with some major longer term issues that I am sure mccain didn't consider

how about a palin jindal ticket in 2012 if mccain loses?

Think strategicallly not tactically.
8.29.2008 7:50pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
its shores up mccains wavering conservative base


Lots of very interesting comments here about the various pros and cons of McCain's choice. But I see a negative that hasn't been mentioned (sorry if I missed it somewhere).

McCain's natural base for this particular election includes all the people who don't want to see a black man in the White House. We all know that people like this exist. Some of them even happen to be Dems. We also know that there are certain people who are biased against women in the same exact way (and some members of this group are Dems, too).

It seems to me that there is probably quite a bit of overlap between these two groups. In other words, there are some voters who want to see a white man in the White House, just like 100% of all prior presidents, and they're just not ready to see that pattern change.

This group was pretty highly motivated to vote for McCain. But as of today, he's alienated them, and they might be inclined to stay home.

This issue obviously carries extra weight because he's 72 and a cancer survivor.
8.29.2008 8:18pm
Thomas_Holsinger:
rarango,

McCain's choice of Palin also gives disgruntled female Democrats and independents a great motive to vote Republican, but not merely because she is female. We can reasonably expect the Democratic nutroots to make the same sexist whacks at Palin that they did at Hillary, and more.

I.e., many, and perhaps a lot, of upscale female Democrats and female independents will vote GOP because of sexist attacks on Palin.

jukeboxgrad,

You are projecting.
8.29.2008 8:28pm
Justin (mail):
Sorry, that was an actual mistake by me. Not that I see much of a difference in what Murray Lipp's response to that comment was:

I stumbled across this post today which contains dishonest information about the Hillary Clinton Forum (www.hillaryclintonforum.net). "Joe", in the above post, listed that the motto of the forum is "vote mac, not black". This is a blatant LIE and an absurd claim. The forum has no such motto and I have never seen this quote posted on the forum which has over 200,000 postings. Making these kinds of slanderous claims is exactly what Obama supporters have been doing for months in an attempt to cast Hillary supporters as "racist". It's digusting and unacceptable. The suggestion that white people who do not support Barack Obama are automatically "racist" is illogical and ridiculous. The reduction of the Clinton/Obama battle to an issue about "race" was just one of many exceptionally divisive strategies employed by the Obama campaign to tear apart the support base of the Democratic Party.

Hillary Clinton Forum (www.hillaryclintonforum.net) does indeed oppose the candidacy of Barack Obama for many valid reasons. But it is a very civilized forum which maintains high standards of conduct which are often not adhered to at many other political forums and websites. Any posts or topics which do not meet the guidelines of appropriate conduct are removed. The forum is maintained by a group of volunteer moderators and is funded through donations from members. As such, it is a collective effort by supporters of Hillary Clinton. The forum was originally set up independently in February 2008 as a place for supporters to discuss Hillary's candidacy and campaign. Since the DNC subsequently persisted on "installing" Barack Obama as the nominee, however, the forum has necessarily shifted focus.

Hillary Clinton Forum (www.hillaryclintonforum.net) is not affiliated with "Just Say No Deal" and had nothing to do with its establishment. This is another false claim by "Joe". The forum's address (www.hillaryclintonforum.net) is listed as being part of the coalition but HCF had nothing at all to do with the establishment of "Just Say No Deal" nor is it involved in its ongoing operations. The forum does, however, support the general purpose of the "Just Say No Deal" coalition which is to oppose the anti-democratic nature in which the 2008 presumptive nominee for the Democratic Nominee has been determined.

Murray Lipp -- Administrator of HCF (www.hillaryclintonforum.net)

As noted above, the entire point of the forum is to oppose Barack Obama. James is still being disingenuous, and I believe another update - stating that the very administer of the site describes it as an anti-Obama website - is the only honorable thing to do.
8.29.2008 8:34pm
Jamie K:
I wish it was Micheal Palin... at least it would have been more funny. Why for god sakes do people think Woman=Stupid? You think that women don't care about the issues? Boohoo! Hillary got hurt, so I'm going to screw the country and vote Republican even though it goes against my beliefs!?

McCain hasn't been very favorable towards woman's issues at all and yes this is very much a political ploy to get Hillary voters and hard right conservatives at the same time. If someone doesn't believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell them. Same old Pander politics.

Now my thought on this is the independents, the moderates like myself, are going to view this as McCain breaking to the right to appease. Which gains some votes, but loses mine. I was actually leaning towards McCain before this pick (I voted for him for senator many years). But this shows that the Maverick which I liked is now just an old plodding broken political cowboy.
8.29.2008 8:42pm
Michael Drake (mail) (www):
Weird. A lot of commenters here are on the theme of Dems being "rattled," "stunned" (Lindgren) or the like, but the liberals I'm reading -- Kleiman, TPM, Obsidian Wings, etc. are at the most nonplussed by the selection of so weak a candidate.

Anyway, my first instinct was astroturfing too. But suppose not. Suppose there was no automated posting, no sockpuppetry, etc. The average poster on the first page the link takes you to has on the order of 1,000 posts. If that's representative, then, you're talking about a total of 300 people. 300 really nutty people, to be sure. But still. Just not a big deal.
8.29.2008 8:48pm
m:
Justin: O.k., as long as we're playing fair!
So, based on the Murray Lipp post that you excerpted (thanks), the commenters on the site that Jim excerpts are anti-Obama, as you say--but for the reason that they are "supporters of Hillary Clinton" (per the person identifying himself as the administrator of that site), not for the reason that they are "right-wing" (your earlier point). They *are* disgruntled Hillary supporters (pace commenter PLR, above). Largely delighted with the Palin pick and saying that the pick won their vote.
It also seems to be the case, as Michael Drake has just succinctly noted, that the commenters on that site are small in number. Minuscule. But they are a constituency of anti-Obama supporters of Hillary Clinton, expressing McCain/Palin support. Are they representative of far greater numbers of those? We'll see.
8.29.2008 9:10pm
G4:
I am a Hillary supporter and McCain sealed the deal now with Palin. I'm a moderate Democrat, a female candidate supporter. The Dems lost my vote by cheating out Hillary. Now McCain will do what the Undemocratic Party could not.
8.29.2008 9:15pm
Michael Drake (mail) (www):
(I guess I should clarify that I'm arguing that there are probably about 300 people making all the noise; there are obviously many more members.)
8.29.2008 9:25pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
holsinger:

You are projecting.


Really? How do you know? You should let me know where to sign up for that course in mind-reading. I bet it comes in handy!

Anyway, it's a relief to know that there aren't a significant number of voters who are attached to the idea of making sure that the White House remains in the hands of white males. I don't know how you know that, either, but it's still a relief to find out. If I'm the only one who feels that way (which is something you seem to know, somehow), then the country is in better shape than I thought! Thanks for passing along the good news.
8.29.2008 10:25pm
EIDE_Interface (mail):
Palin will be living in Ohio, Florida and Missouri the next 2 months.
8.29.2008 10:50pm
Hoosier:
"Michael Drake :
Weird. A lot of commenters here are on the theme of Dems being "rattled," "stunned" (Lindgren) or the like, but the liberals I'm reading -- Kleiman, TPM, Obsidian Wings, etc. are at the most nonplussed by the selection of so weak a candidate."

"Nonplussed" *IS* "rattled."
8.29.2008 10:57pm
njones (mail):
Here's the thing I don't get: a lot of Clinton voters were MEN. We seem to focus on the female Clinton vote but there have to be a lot of working-class rural whites who voted for Clinton over Obama who are up for grabs. It seems to me that Palin has a lot to offer these voters: she's a sportswoman, a pilot, a family-woman, a Christian, a reformer, etc. Certainly she is not going to appeal to single women or Boomer-feminists but McCain wasn't going to win those votes anyway. I think this pick puts a lot of the male Clinton vote up for grabs and may even appeal to the married-women vote. (It is not clear why married women would automatically think a governor who is also a mother of five is underqualified to be VP?) I think this pick helps McCain in November.
8.29.2008 11:24pm
Harmon Dow (mail):
First, Palin does not hurt McCain. That's rule number 1.

Second, she firms him up with a key constituency, conservatives & the religious right. That's rule number 2.

There are no other rules. Anything extra is gravy.

The gravy here is that she energizes Republican women (and maybe discourages Democratic women) and that she might help out in the electoral vote to the extent that it all depends on Ohio, Pennsylvania, & Michigan. Which it does.

And, of course, it shows who the real candidate of change is, and it doesn't require the media to cooperate to get that message across.
8.30.2008 12:12am
TCO:
I'm a Reagan Buckley Goldwater Ron Paul (not into the truther crap though) Republican. I was going to vote for Barr, but am probably going to pull the lever for Repubs now. Not that I wish John anything bad, but would love Palin to succeed to office. I think the problem is that these people make so many deals and compromises and go through such a winnowing process that strips out those who don't "play the game" that almost all politicians are craven. I would much rather take my chance with Palin than the run of the mill. If you want run of the mill, head over to Obama-Biden. Have fun.
8.30.2008 12:59am
BCrago77 (mail):
It's not hard to check for astroturfing.

Most sites which allow comments will not allow multiple registrations of the identical user-name. So one merely has use Google or another search device to check whether those participants happy about the Palin pick have posted pro-Hilary sentiments before the Palin announcement.
8.30.2008 1:15am
Michael Drake (mail) (www):
Hoosier: "'Nonplussed' *IS* 'rattled.'"

True. Except for the different spellings and definitions, of course:
nonplus
rattle
8.30.2008 1:19am
The Drill SGT:
Palin accomplishes three things for McCain

1. It energizes his base, which was soft and not fired up to volunteer. The Religous right loves here for walking the walk on her newest son.

2. it peels away women in the middle and some number of rabid Hillary voters which really count (2x) because they are moving from being sure Obama votes to McCain

3. finally Palin will do well in middle America. PA, Ohio, Michigan. e.g. the Hillary rust belt. Did I say that Palin and her husband were both union members? attractive, plain spoken, gun tottin, blue collar, Union card, self made woman NRA member will pick up some of the male votes as well. She'll kill Obama in PA and Ohio. MI, MN, WI are also fertile spots for her with that accent.
8.30.2008 1:45am
marcystrauss (mail):
i don't get any woman who supported Clinton going for McCain/Palin. For God's sake, they stand for everything CLinton is opposed to. It could spell the end of Roe v. Wade. They are horrible on equality issues as well. How could you possibly go from Clinton to McCain???
8.30.2008 2:00am
Mrgraffen:
It really looks like McCain threw this ticket under an identity politics train wreck. This makes me want to cry, but I guess there's something to be said for taking his maverick ways all the way down.
8.30.2008 3:19am