[Ira Matetsky, guest-blogging, May 16, 2009 at 11:16pm] Trackbacks
Wikipedia: Some Responses to Comments:

My thanks to everyone who has read my guestblog posts this week on the subject of Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia where I am an editor, an administrator, and an arbitrator (User:Newyorkbrad). Tonight I should address some of the comments on my earlier posts, which I will do in no particular order. (I've already implicitly addressed some comments on my earlier posts in later ones, so I won't duplicate that; and please understand that in limited time and space I can't possibly cover everything.)

In response to my posts about problems regarding Wikipedia articles involving biographies of living persons ("BLPs"), the suggestion was made that when an issue arises concerning whether a biographical article should be kept on Wikipedia or deleted, there be a presumption in favor of deletion unless there is a collective decision to keep it, rather than the other way around. (In Wikiparlance: when a BLP is AfD'd, "no consensus" would default to delete. In an ordinary deletion discussion, by policy, "no consensus" defaults to keep.)

This suggestion has been advanced and discussed on-wiki, and has won wide endorsements, but not quite enough to be adopted. A main sticking point is that a BLP can be nominated for deletion for reasons having nothing to do with defamation, privacy violation, or undue weight -- say, a dispute whether an athlete or a performer is quite notable enough to warrant coverage. In many of these instances, ironically, if the article subject were asked, he or she might prefer that the article remain. (we sometimes get complaints from people whose articles are deleted; there may well be more people who are unhappy that they are excluded from Wikipedia than people who are unhappy that they are included.)

I advanced a compromise proposal suggesting that deletion discussions on BLPs default to delete where the notability of the subject is not clear-cut (that would presumably be the case anytime the tentative AfD result is "no consensus") and (1) the article taken as a whole is substantially negative with respect to the reputation of the subject, (2) the article subject is a minor, or (3) the article subject is known to have himself or herself requested the article's deletion. It may be time to revive discussion on-wiki of this suggestion.

Also relevant are two decisions by the Arbitration Committee (although I was not active in either case) establishing that any administrator may delete content deemed obviously unsuitable, and in those cases, the content stays out unless and until there is a consensus to keep it. While these holdings are on the books, though, unilateral deletions of high-profile articles often lead to a great deal of disputation and "drama," which can result in greater publicity for the material the admin believes should be deleted than the disputed article itself ever had. (A notable improvement within the past couple of years is the use of "noindex" coding so that our back-office discussions such a deletion debates themselves don't show up on Google. The use of "noindex" to keep certain types of not-ready-for-prime-time Wikipedia content off of search engines should be expanded.)

Also apropos of BLP issues, I would like to thank two commenters on my first BLP post for making clear the tensions that exist in this area. I wrote about a boy named "John" who had been kidnapped and mistreated a couple of years ago, who I thought should not be the subject of a Wikipedia article, as an example of material both on Wikipedia and on the Internet more widely that raised privacy issues. The first commenter suggested that in using this example I must still be in the process of merely clearing my throat, because it is obvious that no such article should exist. The second commenter suggested that I was a censor for seeking to depublicize such content, including mention of the boy's name, which I'd been careful not to include. (I acknowledge, however, that I had not been aware of the Today interview of the boy's parents.) And so it goes. In any event, if anyone does not find that example compelling I offered several others.

There were several comments bemoaning the deletion of certain content on topics like anime. Although I haven't checked the specifics of the deleted articles that the commenters cited (which as an administrator I could do), in general I agree with these criticisms. Outside the context of BLPs, I am probably as strong an "inclusionist" (the opposite is "deletionist") as can be found in the administrator corps. We delete too many articles on topics found to be "not quite notable enough." In particular, our completely laudible policy of justifying inclusion of articles by requiring citation of multiple stable reliable sources and a showing of some degree of prominence can be taken too far, and has decimated our coverage in areas like webcomics. On the other hand, we don't want to be a promotional outlet for every garage band formed last week or website with 10 readers, and allowing articles with no sources makes it too easy to plant hoaxes -- so lines will always have to be drawn somewhere.

"Spoiler warnings" were removed throughout the fiction articles because a small but determined group of users armed with bots (automated programs that conduct repetitious tasks) believed strongly that they are "not encyclopedic." In the (paraphrased) words of one of them, if you look up a novel or a film in an encyclopedia, you can presume that it is going to discuss the plot, so no one should be surprised that there is mention of the ending. Of course, there are counterarguments. I personally don't have a strong view on this one, but to the commenter, you are free to start up a discussion on-wiki if the lack of spoiler warnings troubles you.

Someone suggested that Wikipedia needs stronger coverage of law and legal topics. The editors in Wikiproject Law would certainly welcome more participation from lawyers, law students, legal historians, legal academics, and others interested in the subject-matter in creating, expanding, honing, and sourcing articles on legal topics. A particular issue with these articles is making sure that where applicable, they are written from a global perspective, as the English Wikipedia is edited from and read in every country in the world. A usual if superficial response to on-wiki complaints that an article needs improvement is a template called "{{sofixit}}". More on this tomorrow.

My thanks to the commenter who recommended the Damon Knight story. I'll definitely be looking it up.

I'll wrap up this series of posts tomorrow with some links to Wikipedia for those who might want to start editing, some links to sites critical of Wikipedia for those who want to see more meta-debate, and a couple more questions for the audience. My thanks again to all the readers and commenters.

Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Thanks very much for the detailed reply, Brad, regarding the BLP policy of default to keep. I'm sure that some unknown person will soon take the matter up at Wikipedia (if he hasn't already). Cheers.
5.16.2009 11:34pm
Dave N (mail):
Andrew Hyman,

Did you just "out" yourself as "Zuch" or did I read to much into your "Cheers?"

Inquiring minds want to know, even when they don't particularly care.

(Websites and e-mail addresses are different, so I suspect the answer to the first question is "no" and the answer to the second question is "yes")
5.16.2009 11:51pm
Dave N (mail):
And regardless of your answers, I am sure you are also thinking, "Dave N really needs to get a life."
5.16.2009 11:52pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
No comment on both counts!
5.17.2009 12:16am
Daryl Herbert (www):
"Spoiler warnings" were removed throughout the fiction articles because a small but determined group of users armed with bots (automated programs that conduct repetitious tasks) believed strongly that they are "not encyclopedic."

Some people just need to be slapped upside the head.

A pet peeve doesn't give you the right to vandalize Wikipedia, especially using bots to do it.

Wikipedia has all sorts of features that aren't found in paper encyclopedias. Spoiler alerts are just one more useful feature. Don't let them bully you into removing it because it doesn't match their idiosyncratic view of what the web site is supposed to be like.
5.17.2009 12:23am
Soronel Haetir (mail) (www):
I hope you will at least cover the issue of controversial topics instead of just controversial internal policies. Topic control by a few users distorts the presented information far more than whether a garage band is included or not.

Also, legal topics seem like one of the innumerable areas that experts get chased away from as others have mentioned.
5.17.2009 12:44am
Avatar (mail):
I expect that the law section is never going to become comprehensive, for two reasons. The first is liability. Plenty of lawyers see the need to disclaim any legal relationship between any readers and themselves for something as innocuous as a Slashdot post. In an environment where that sort of disclaimer isn't ridiculous on its face, is it any wonder that lawyers aren't lining up to write down their name and associate it with a legal opinion that people may well use to inform themselves about the law? Worse, in an environment where it can be cited? Even worse, where it can be -modified- by a malicious third party, and then cited as part of a suit?

The other reason is that, to put it bluntly, giving your opinion about what the law says about a topic is a significant part of a lawyer's work product. If there was a collection of peer-moderated and well-proofread statements about the particulars of this law or that in certain situations, available free of charge to the general public, well, that's that many lawyers who won't be consulted on the topic. In a field where "mercenary" is no insult, should you expect that many lawyers to give free legal advice to all comers?
5.17.2009 1:52am
Soronel Haetir (mail):
Avatar,

There are plenty of people with law degrees who don't practice. Professors as an example. I've seen accounts of profs trying in various fields that they are expert in, for the most part it just doesn't seem like it's worth the effort.

Perhaps wikipedia is an environment where having something is more valuable than having something that is right.
5.17.2009 2:18am
Jeremiah:
I wonder if you would speak to the question of general political bias. Blatantly politically biased statements I find can usually be edited away without exciting much controversy (I am a very minor editor). But there seems frequently to be a broader bias at work in the selection and arrangement of material. It is my impression, for example, that figures on the political right tend to have a lengthy and prominent section of "controversies," whereas this is less true of figures on the left. The "controversies" sections are a favorite place to plant witty or biting attack quotes from columnists and pundits.

So -

(1) Do you perceive that there tends to be a tilt - at least in terms of what is considered worthy of inclusion, how it is arranged, and how articles on political figures compare left-right?

(2) If so, do you think the tilt can be corrected / is worth correcting?
5.17.2009 2:33am
Soronel Haetir (mail):
Jeremiah,

It's just a carry over of the MSM "Name that party" game.
5.17.2009 2:35am
Dave N (mail):
Soronel Haetir and Jeremiah,

There isn't any media bias. JBG said there wasn't and we all know that anything he says has to be absolutely, 100% true.
5.17.2009 2:45am
Noah Snyder (mail):
Since you've brought up the "inclusionist" vs. "deletionist" distinction, I'd like to say that as a mathematician I'm very worried about what will happen when the deletionists get to the math pages. Wikipedia's current math coverage is very very good and improving every day. What if anything can I or other mathematicians do to make sure that people aren't going to come along and gut many of these great articles some day?
5.17.2009 3:32am
Ken Arromdee:
Saying that spoiler warnings were removed by a "small but determined" group of users is of course true, but it glosses over the fundamental problem: you're supposed to gain consensus for major changes, not bully them through. A "small but determined" group of users shouldn't be allowed to do that. It was abuse of the system, abuse which happened for all the reasons I pointed out last post.

but to the commenter, you are free to start up a discussion on-wiki if the lack of spoiler warnings troubles you.

1) It isn't just the lack of spoiler warnings that troubles me, it's how it was achieved.

2) All the flaws in the system which applied before still apply, which would make discussing it as useless as it was last time. (For instance, it's still much easier to remove something than add it.) Some are even worse (for instance, the fact that if you change something controversial without a consensus, it becomes the new status quo and now can't be changed back without a consensus).

If someone is telling you how a museum was robbed because the security is poor and they didn't put alarms on the skylight window, the correct response is not to say "the robbery was carried out by a small but dedicated band of thieves who bypassed the security". We already know that; the point that you're not addressing is that there's something wrong with the security.
5.17.2009 4:07am
Ken Arromdee:
A usual if superficial response to on-wiki complaints that an article needs improvement is a template called "{{sofixit}}". More on this tomorrow.

You know it's not valid (or you wouldn't have called it superficial); we know it's not valid. What's the point of even bothering to mention it?

As someone said, it's not our job to babysit the Internet. And criticizing the quality of something produced by volunteers is completely legitimate. Especially if the volunteers are making claims for their project that don't match the reality. Suppose instead of creating a free encyclopedia, your goal was to get a lot of volunteers to give away free computers. I point out that you are not very successful at this goal. Would a correct response be that since I could help make your project work better (by giving my computer away), and I haven't, I have no right to complain about its lack of success?
5.17.2009 4:34am
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):

A pet peeve doesn't give you the right to vandalize Wikipedia, especially using bots to do it.


Then again, a peeve might be a truth... like drowned female interns.
5.17.2009 7:29am
iambatman:
Speaking of BLPs, when is Clayton Cramer's ovciously self-written entry going to be removed?
5.17.2009 10:08am
geokstr (mail):
Perhaps I was mistaken, but wasn't there a lot of discussion on all these Wiki posts specifically about political bias by one small group of administrators on the subject loosely known (at least this week) as "Climate Change"? And you're not going to touch this at all, Ira?

Maybe it's not "notable" enough. After all, we're only talking a couple hundred trillion dollars in worldwide governmental spending at stake in the next fifty years (exclusive of a similar amount of compliance costs that government will force on the private sector) and a radical restructuring of the entire planet's economy.

Or are you a True Believer too?
5.17.2009 11:16am
Daniel Chapman (mail):
You're funny, batman. Maybe you should dedicate your life to building a wiki-consensus against Cramer. It'd probably be a good use of your time.
5.17.2009 12:23pm
Bill Harshaw (mail) (www):
I'm surprised Wikipedia doesn't use and display statistics, which might be revealing. For example, for an individual article, the average number of edits over a time period or the ratio of reads to edits. Or how the stats for the article compare to broader averages. I would think for a math piece, the edits would quickly go to almost zero. And, if the subject is important, a high ratio of reads to edits could indicate the piece
5.17.2009 12:47pm
Crimsonsplat (mail) (www):
I'm in full agreement with Soronel and Jerimiah regarding bias at Wikipedia. My introduction to Wikipedia editing and bias was the infamous enshrinement of some kooky psych theories on conservatives; see the entries on Right-Wing Authoritarianism and Social Dominance, plus the ridiculously long section on "The Psychology of Conservatism." I managed to get some of the worst-written segments changed, but I lack expertise to counter-cite. Not that the "opposition" is any more qualified, except as Wiki admins.

Anyone with valid links to counter the Lysenkoism of Altemeyer, Sidanius and Pratto, feel free to drop me an email... (note their articles aren't even marked as controversial)

And none of this addresses the biggest problem with Wikipedia: it's difficult to use most edit or admin functions. No wonder that group botted: Wiki is run by arcane "DOS command prompts." Was that four tildes or five? Where does the colon go in that command? How many brackets and what's the keyword? Feh. The interface all but guarantees young users with lots of time.
5.17.2009 12:51pm
TM Lutas (mail) (www):
Oh climate change, I stopped editing Wikipedia when an admin claimed on the global cooling page that no RS existed talking about present day global cooling, just to find during research that he himself had written such an article on realclimate.org, dismissive of course but enough to vault the concept past fringe status. I've not gone back to edit since.

For laughs I just went back to see that page and it is just as bad as when I left it.
5.17.2009 12:52pm
DangerMouse:
What a bunch of crap. Some responses to comments, and nothing about the systemic political bias of the libs that overrun Wikipedia? I guess it goes to prove how biased they really are.

Wikipedia is totally, completely, 100% useless.
5.17.2009 12:55pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
I've left several comments on previous entries discussing that bias and providing examples and so have others, and about all Matetsky can come back with is a discussion of spoiler warnings and other trivial matters.

Maybe if he doesn't want to appear to be little more than a feckless tool he could discuss the complaints about entries like en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Jarrett (what it doesn't say) or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Villaraigosa (see "distortions from" on the talk page). Or, he could discuss a case of WP incorrectly interpreting a law in order to help BHO. (I'm going to hope that volokh.com readers are above the liberal troll level and will do their best to understand my argument rather than deliberately misrepresenting it.)
5.17.2009 1:24pm
Bruce Hayden (mail):
Wikipedia is totally, completely, 100% useless.
I completely disagree. Last night I was struggling with "source follower" in some patent claims. I am working on some electronics applications, and my background is really in software. The Wikipedia entry was at the top of my Google search, and then I was able to follow links from it to other related articles.

You just have to know when Wikipedia is useful, and when it isn't.
5.17.2009 2:16pm
Jeremiah:
Bill Harshaw, that is a fantastic idea! While it could be gamed by partisans aiming to discredit a particular article, such articles are likely to be a mess anyway. Making such statistics available would also increase the incentive to lock down articles, which would ultimately give more power to administrators, entrenching the views of the majority or the most fanatic of them. But, on the whole, that seems to be the best possible way to get a handle on the signal to noise ratio for any given article.
5.17.2009 3:53pm
AJK:



Wikipedia is totally, completely, 100% useless.


I couldn't disagree more — the bios of characters on 24 are outstanding.
5.17.2009 4:00pm
Elisha Feger (mail):
Why is it that webcomics with thousands of readers and even some with offline citations routinely have their pages deleted, but every single rural trainstop that's not in use in England has its own wiki page?

Oh because there are admins with axes to grind, silly me.
5.17.2009 4:02pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
Bruce Hayden writes: The Wikipedia entry was at the top of my Google search, and then I was able to follow links from it to other related articles.

Sounds neat, and very convenient!

However, on anything remotely controversial, those links would have been mostly to sites reflecting the interests of those who watch over the article. Only some people have the time and energy to engage in edit wars and use WP's host of arcane rules in order to get their way, and they tend to win out.

Not only that, there are those on WP who try to rid articles of external links, trying to make WP more "pure".

For an example of how you can't trust WP to link to relevant sites, consider:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina

Normally, you'd think that a website with the following features* would fit right in as a link from that page:

* about the very same topic as the WP entry
* over 1000 posts
* categorized by over 400 tags
* containing about 100 times as much text as the WP entry

Yet, you'd be wrong. That site was linked from the WP page for several months until another editor decided it didn't belong there, despite providing more detailed information on the topic than the WP entry ever could. While one page of the site is footnote #17 from the Bechtel entry, it apparently has "too much information" (if you know what I mean) for the entry about the very same topic.

The bottom line is that WP is little more than a disinfo source.

* Note: I moved it from one platform to another; it had a better theme before and I haven't gotten around to making it look better. In any case, the tussle happened before the move and the content is still there in its present form.
5.17.2009 4:31pm
Avatar (mail):
Well, the number of disused rural train stops in England is finite and not increasing rapidly. The number of webcomics that could argue that they deserve a page... well, it's finite, but only technically.

Seriously, folks! There are other places for that sort of thing.
5.17.2009 4:32pm
rrr:
And over here, John Awbrey posts the following quote about this discussion thread:

Aside from a couple of cogent posts by Brandt and Kohs, the commentary on the VC Blog makes Fark and Slashdot look almost intelligent.


First, one wonders why the enlightened Awbrey would even bother with such benighted people as V-C readers. I pity him having to actually condescend to join us in order to point us to the light.

Seriously, when I first read the negative portrayal of Awbrey in an earlier comment, I was thinking, "that's some nice ad-hominem from someone who's trying too hard to protect something." After wading through Awbrey's stuff at wikipediareview, I'm more inclined to think, with regard to Awbrey vs. Wikipedia in particular, Awbrey's the problem child. Nothing I've seen here or there lends me to think he's any more credible than the quoted condescending snark might indicate. I say that as someone who has serious reservations about Wikipedia.

But then, what do I know? I'm no John Awbrey.
5.17.2009 5:03pm
Frater Plotter:
Regarding "political bias" -- in some cases, such as climate change and evolution, there appears to be a misconception that these are fundamentally political issues for Wikipedia's purposes, and thus that Wikipedia's treatment of them should be "balanced" and "unbiased" towards all sides of political disputes.

A political issue is one of policy: it is a dispute as to what ought to be done using the powers of government. While climate change and evolution have consequences for political entities, they are not at root political issues, but scientific ones: questions not of what ought to be done but of what is, out there in the world. They cannot be settled in legislatures or courtrooms -- no, not even by juries in their capacity as "finders of fact". They are not subject to vote or suasion: acts of public relations, propaganda, or conversion may sway people's beliefs, but they cannot change the facts one way or another.

(As Dick Feynman said regarding the question of whether the Space Shuttle was well engineered: "Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.")

Because the occurrence of evolution or climate change are matters of fact and not policy, the reliable sources upon which Wikipedia must rely are not the opinions or proclamations of politicians or activists. They are, rather, the results of scientific method: the work of those whose profession is to investigate what is, not those whose profession is to debate and decide what ought to be done.

As such, climate-change articles should be based on the work of climatologists and earth scientists, not on the proclamations of Al Gore or his rivals in the policy sphere. Articles about the development of life should be based on the work of those who study life, not those who study religion.

It may well be, of course, that "reality has a [political] bias": that is, that certain policy claims are founded upon claims of fact which are contrary to the evidence. In this case, a well-sourced article about reality will appear to have a political bias, because it contradicts the erroneous claims made in the policy dispute. (Indeed, it may even be that both sides of a policy dispute make factually erroneous claims, in which case they will both be contradicted, and will both complain of political bias!)
5.17.2009 5:05pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
Continuing, the DavisBacon issue is discussed in single paragraphs on these two pages:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina

However, it's nowhere to be found on this page:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina

Meanwhile, I've got over a dozen posts about it or mentioning it.

And, I've got five posts about or mentioning this guy. If you read German, WP has a whole sentence tangentially describing him here:
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Brown_(FEMA)

Maybe instead of discussing the ever-so-exciting topic of spoilers, Matetsky could come back with a bang as well as a defense of keeping my site out of the related entry despite it containing much more information.
5.17.2009 5:06pm
Jon Awbrey (www):
rrr says, "I'm no John Awbrey"

Jon Awbrey says, "And neither am I"

But seriously, folks, just chalk it up to my being an overly jaded observer of Wikipedia and its Internet penumbra for over 5 years now.

Most of the stuff that I've read here — from Ira's earnest sermons to the veil of cheers and jeers in the pews — reflects the level of insight into Wikipedia that might have been common fare several years ago, but simply fails to address the reality as it can be seen today.

Jon Awbrey
5.17.2009 5:50pm
Soronel Haetir (mail):
I also have to say I'm disappointed by this response to comments in that even the weak areas that are addressed are not done so effectively. Mr. Matetsky all but admits that wikipedia can be held hostage by small determined groups yet doesn't even seem to see this as a problem.

What possible incentive is there for a new editor to wade into this mess? Contentious areas by their very nature are where people are likely to gravitate.
5.17.2009 6:49pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
Meanwhile, back in present reality, compare the information level between these two:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Jarrett
whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Valerie_Jarrett

The second is from the WaPo, a mostly left and completely establishment source. The WaPo entry has something that the WP entry does not: the fact that she's "believed to be candidate No. 1" in regards to the Blago matter; that's completely missing from the WP entry. However, while the WaPo entry mentions real estate several times, it doesn't mention her links to Rezko; for that you need to turn to JudicialWatch. A blurb about state FOIA documents linking her to Rezko was deleted from her WP entry three times.

Moving onward and upward to present reality, compare the following to my page about the same person:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Solis
whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Hilda_L._Solis

Obviously, there's much more about her at the first than the other two, but when it comes to the topic I cover there's much more about her at my page than WP and especially the WaPo. Obviously I have a POV, but I'm hardly trying to hide it. WP and the WaPo both have a POV, but they try to hide it. And, that same lack of negative information is repeated over and over in certain "protected" entries, and attempts to add negative information usually fall prey to WP's arcane rules, edit wars and so on.
5.17.2009 7:08pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
Maybe even better than the last, compare this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
League_of_United_Latin_American_Citizens

To this.
5.17.2009 7:23pm
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
DangerMouse said (5.17.2009 12:55pm) --
What a bunch of crap. Some responses to comments, and nothing about the systemic political bias of the libs that overrun Wikipedia? I guess it goes to prove how biased they really are.

Ira Matetsky has said nothing about the systemic political bias because there is nothing he could say that could justify Wikipedia's actions. Like Wikipedia, he has become irrelevant and superfluous.

Here are some Wikipedia edit wars that may someday become classics:

Wikipedia administrators said that under the "ignore all rules" rule it is OK to ignore the rule against citing personal blogs, but only for "notable" or "reputable" personal blogs and not for "crappy" personal blogs. [link]

Wikipedia attacked a report of the Discovery Institute and allowed no rebuttals either in the Wikipedia text or in external links. [link] [link] [link]

Wikipedia refused to list in the "banned books" article a book that was banned by a federal judge. [link]
5.18.2009 1:00am
Ken Arromdee:
I already rebutted the banned books claim. At best you could say that someone at Wikipedia abused the rules to not list a book that common sense says shouldn't have been listed anyway. And the article is now rewritten and the book can be legitimately excluded from the new version of the article without abusing rules at all.

The personal blogs problem is a legitimate complaint in the sense that the rules don't have an exception for "notable" versus "crappy" blogs, but I'm having a hard time coming up with any sympathy for the creationists, because the rules should contain such an exception, and the result should be that the science blog is used and the creationist one is not. Moreover, this complaint is also obsolete, because we now have WP:PARITY. This rule allows creationists to be critiqued using sources such as blogs.
5.18.2009 4:49am
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Speaking of BLPs, when is Clayton Cramer's ovciously self-written entry going to be removed?
No, it wasn't written by me.
5.18.2009 8:35am
Mike Keenan:
24AheadDotCom,
Rarely have I seen such a powerful argument for WP than comparing your article of Hilda Solis with WP's article.
5.18.2009 9:25am
devil's advocate (mail):

Wikipedia is totally, completely, 100% useless.


I was wondering when to jump in on all this and this ultimate untethered ad hominem was it.

Of course that is false. I got the quickest collected explanation of Tire Code greek off wikipedia just the other day.

And I use it all the time, checked the spelling of Jack Abramoff's last and Gale Norton's first name the other day. Now they could even get that wrong I suppose, but I haven't seen a lot of complaints in that regard.

I also use it for a quick CV source, albeit I try to confirm via other avenues some of the information I retreive, esp. if I plan to reiterate the information.

I have very rarely run across vandalism in articles. I think I might actually have pulled a bizarre insertion once a few years ago.

That said, it seems to me that Ira has dodged the political bullet but not the war. Still, I think the highly -- if necessarily -- anecdotal cases pushed repeatedly here are not particularly fruitful.

I think the broader and politely asked question regarding the extent to which controversies seem to be copiously listed on BPL pages of conservatives and not on pages of liberals is the criticism that Ira should address.

But one must take these things in context. The World Book Encyclopedia I grew up with was infected with a certain world view comfortable for its time. Have you read a textbook lately. In some ways Wikipedia, if equally biased is a little less condescending, and the whole idea of its pretense to objectivity is pretty silly.

I find it a useful tool. I am not persuaded that it provides a balanced view of its subjects but if a bunch of lefties with time on their hands, along with a few tokens want to create an encyclopedia that slightly eases my research burden in fighting left leaning polices, all power to them.

Brian
5.18.2009 11:55am
Miss Voxel 8:
Wikipedia does persecute for political reasons: Climate change dispute 2
5.18.2009 2:21pm
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
Ken Arromdee moans,
At best you could say that someone at Wikipedia abused the rules to not list a book that common sense says shouldn't have been listed anyway.

The issue is not whether the book belongs in the list -- the issue is that the Wikipedia rules were broken by not presenting the different sides of a "significant" dispute -- and not even acknowledging that a significant dispute exists. I proposed a simple, fair solution: list the book along with a statement that the listing is disputed and links to external websites where the dispute is discussed or debated. My proposal was ignored.
And the article is now rewritten and the book can be legitimately excluded from the new version of the article without abusing rules at all.

The rules are still being abused, because a significant group thinks that the book should be included in the list.
The personal blogs problem is a legitimate complaint in the sense that the rules don't have an exception for "notable" versus "crappy" blogs,

Well, thank you -- a concession at last.
but I'm having a hard time coming up with any sympathy for the creationists, because the rules should contain such an exception, and the result should be that the science blog is used and the creationist one is not.

The Wikirules make no such distinction between "science" (as you call it) blogs and "creationist" blogs, so you are just pissing in the wind. Also, I am not a creationist and the issues I raised on Cheri Yecke's bio were not about "science" v. "creationism."
Moreover, this complaint is also obsolete, because we now have WP:PARITY. This rule allows creationists to be critiqued using sources such as blogs.

You missed this part of WP:PARITY, which also allows those critiques to be rebutted by sources such as (personal) blogs --
For example, the lack of peer-reviewed criticism of creation science should not be used as a justification for marginalizing or removing scientific criticism of creation science, since creation science itself is almost never published in peer-reviewed journals. Likewise, the views of adherents should not be excluded from an article on creation science because their works lack peer review. (emphasis added)

Anyway, WP:PARITY is irrelevant here because creationism itself was not an issue. Here were the issues as I posted them on the discussion page of Cheri Yecke's Wikipedia bio: [link] --
(2) There are no sources for the following two items:

1. ^ Yecke: "every local district should have the freedom to teach creationism if that is what they choose" Minnesota Public Radio, June 9, 2003. (from reference section)

"The versions of the Minnesota Science Standards circulated by Yecke contained language used by the pro-intelligent design Teach The Controversy campaign which casts doubt on evolution while offering intelligent design as a competing theory. The version that was circulated among the public did not include these revisions."
Larry Fafarman 11:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You just make up rules as you go along. You should join Wikipedia -- you have the arbitrary, capricious, discriminatory, bigoted, fascist Wikipedian mentality.
5.18.2009 2:37pm
Ken Arromdee:
The issue is not whether the book belongs in the list -- the issue is that the Wikipedia rules were broken by not presenting the different sides of a "significant" dispute -- and not even acknowledging that a significant dispute exists.

The rules were, technically, broken, but that isn't important because the book doesn't belong there anyway, so breaking the rules had no effect except that someone didn't have to invoke IAR to keep the book out.

I proposed a simple, fair solution: list the book along with a statement that the listing is disputed and links to external websites where the dispute is discussed or debated. My proposal was ignored.

That doesn't help. If you claim the book's status is disputed, you now need a reliable source which says that the book's status is disputed.

The rules are still being abused, because a significant group thinks that the book should be included in the list.

The actual rule abuse was very minor and had nothing to do with significant groups, which was not a rule abuse.

The Wikirules make no such distinction between "science" (as you call it) blogs and "creationist" blogs, so you are just pissing in the wind.

I don't think you read what I wrote. I just pointed out that the rules should contain such a distinction, not that they do contain a distinction. You are correct that the rules make no such distinction right now, but that is just a loophole in the rules.
5.18.2009 5:21pm
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
devil's advocate said (5.18.2009 11:55am) --
I think the highly -- if necessarily -- anecdotal cases pushed repeatedly here are not particularly fruitful.

Do you know what an "anecdote" is? One definition (Collins Essential English Dictionary) is, "a short amusing account of an incident." The horror stories about Wikipedia are often not short and are amusing only if you have a sick sense of humor.

I invite you to read my blog's 54 articles bashing Wikipedia, in three post-label groups of articles [1] [2] [3]. Wikipedia's bad reputation is based on the accumulation of bad experiences -- "anecdotes," as you call them -- of many individuals.
The World Book Encyclopedia I grew up with was infected with a certain world view comfortable for its time. Have you read a textbook lately.

One of Wikipedia's biggest mistakes as an online open-editing encyclopedia was in trying to look like a standard printed encyclopedia. For the following reasons, an online open-editing encyclopedia can and needs to handle a greater number of controversies than a standard printed encyclopedia --

(1) -- with a potentially unlimited number of contributors, a larger number of controversial ideas -- particularly unorthodox ideas -- are going to be entered

(2) -- online encyclopedias, unlike printed encyclopedias, can link instantly to external sites where controversial ideas can be discussed or debated, eliminating the need for cluttering up the text with long discussions or debates of controversial ideas

Another big mistake that Wikipedia made was the preposterous assumption that it is possible to reach a consensus position on an irreconcilable controversy. It can't be done.
5.18.2009 5:35pm
devil's advocate (mail):
Wow, Larr . . .

To quote a controversial source, i.e. Wikipedia:


The word anecdote ("unpublished", literally "not given out") comes from Procopius of Caesarea, the biographer of Justinian I, who produced a work entitled Ανεκδοτα (Anekdota, variously translated as Unpublished Memoirs or Secret History), which is primarily a collection of short incidents from the private life of the Byzantine court. Gradually, the term anecdote came to be applied to any short tale utilized to emphasize or illustrate whatever point the author wished to make.



Even if you don't take this for gospel, sure, I know an anecdote can be amusing but the most common definition checking several sources is "interesting or amusing" and I did not use the word anecdote, I used the word anecdotal (as in anecdotal evidence) which has a slightly different connotation:

based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation

In the context of my endorsement of the more systemic allegations in Jeremiah's post I think you can draw a reasonable contextual inference about the particular sense in which I use anecdotal, and it is not by way of saying that this constant chatter about whether anyone can put a link from judicial watch on Valerie Jarett's page is amusing.

I'm not suggesting there is no bias inherent in the protection of Jarett's page from mention of association with Resko. I'm quite sure there likely is. I just don't count on Wikipedia for my opposition research.

I tried to read through some of your criticisms and I find them a bit obscure. I do get the idea that controversial topics are surrounded and defended by folks who are convinced of their own objective viewpoint. Now given that the anecdotal controversies are in the area of political biographies, creationism and climate change, it doesn't surprise me that there is actually an orthodoxy represented by these would be neutrals.

So I think this is a valid criticism of Wikipedia, but I still find Wikipedia useful. And this whole thing plays out like the academy. The lefists took over and form an ideological cordone. It will take years for other points of view to claw their ways back. In the meantime the legitimacy of the entire construct is openly suspect. But degree granting, fund raising, even a little bit of actual pursuit of the truth grinds on at these universities even under this cloud. So take what is useful and leave the rest.

Brian

PS - There was a link my Miss Voxel 8 to another obscure dispute over editing the form of footnotes in articles related to climate change. The whole dispute seemed to be carried out over process and not substance so I still have no idea why this can be characterized as a "persecution for political reasons" - albeit it wouldn't surprise me that this was some offshot of Al Gore's goosesteppers.

The climate change articles read just like the world book would on the subject actually. very dressed down but completely in the bag.

Brian
5.18.2009 8:49pm
wyswyg:

Regarding "political bias" -- in some cases, such as climate change and evolution, there appears to be a misconception that these are fundamentally political issues for Wikipedia's purposes, and thus that Wikipedia's treatment of them should be "balanced" and "unbiased" towards all sides of political disputes.



Don't be absurd, the only person mentioning these topics is you. The political bias shows itself in the different treatment of political figures. The Wikipeda treatment of John Edwards is a classic of the genre.
5.18.2009 9:02pm
wyswyg:

The Wikipedia entry was at the top of my Google search, and then I was able to follow links from it to other related articles.



It's my understanding that Google puts Wikipedia at the top of all search results where a Wikipedia answer exists. That's a reflection on Google, not on the quality of Wikipedia whether for good or ill.
5.18.2009 9:05pm
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
Ken Arromdee moans,
The rules were, technically, broken,

Well, that's very serious, because the rules are supposed to be everything on Wikipedia.
breaking the rules had no effect except that someone didn't have to invoke IAR to keep the book out.

The IAR -- i.e., "ignore all rules" -- rule does not say that it can be applied in a discriminatory fashion, so if they want to ignore the rule requiring presentation of the views of all "significant" groups, then they have to ignore the significant group that does not want the book to be listed as well the significant group that does want the book to be listed. And it is an "ignore all rules" rule -- it is not an "administrators can make up their own arbitrary, discriminatory rules" rule.
I proposed a simple, fair solution: list the book along with a statement that the listing is disputed and links to external websites where the dispute is discussed or debated. My proposal was ignored.

That doesn't help. If you claim the book's status is disputed, you now need a reliable source which says that the book's status is disputed.

Wrong again -- it is only necessary to show that a "significant" group thinks that the book should be listed, and King Jimbo himself said,

If your viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents

I named two "prominent" adherents -- the Discovery Institute and William Dembski -- of the view that the book should be listed. Of course, if Wikipedia thinks that they are not "prominent" enough, Wikipedia can always delete the big articles about them.

And we don't even know that the group that wants the book to be listed is the minority.
The actual rule abuse was very minor and had nothing to do with significant groups, which was not a rule abuse.

I showed above that there is a "significant group" rule that was abused.
I don't think you read what I wrote.

I don't think that you read what you wrote.
I just pointed out that the rules should contain such a distinction, not that they do contain a distinction.

Why should such an embarrassing distinction be added when the same effect can be achieved by just breaking the rules, including the "ignore all rules" rule?

See, Ken, I have used the Wikirules to "lawyer" you to death. Like those sleazy Wickedpedian administrators, I have learned how to game the system.

As I said before, Wikipedia sucks and you are making yourself look very foolish by bending over backwards to try to defend that abominable outfit.
5.18.2009 9:59pm
Kent G. Budge (www):
My chief concern, which is the lack of accountability inherent when content can be generated and controlled by anonymous editors, has not been addressed at all here.

Nevertheless, I strongly disagree that Wikipedia is 100% useless. I would characterize it as 50% unreliable,the reliable 50% being articles on noncontroversial topics obviously written by experts. Yes, I believe an intelligent reader can tell which is which.

I consider Wikipedia a reasonably useful place to pick up sources and links on a topic of interest. I'm not impressed with Wikipedia itself as a source. Maybe the source of last resort, which is pretty much how I use it.
5.19.2009 12:37am
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
devil's advocate said (5.18.2009 8:49pm) --
Even if you don't take this for gospel, sure, I know an anecdote can be amusing but the most common definition checking several sources is "interesting or amusing" and I did not use the word anecdote, I used the word anecdotal (as in anecdotal evidence) which has a slightly different connotation

Definitions of "anecdote" vary. My printed Webster's New World Dictionary -- 3rd College Edition defines "anecdote" as "a short, entertaining account of some happening, usually personal or biographical," and "anecdotal" as "of or like an anecdote." The Wikipedia horror stories are so disgusting that they are not even funny, and they are more than just "interesting." Calling these stories "anecdotal" trivializes the case against Wikipedia.
I tried to read through some of your criticisms and I find them a bit obscure.

They are not obscure at all -- they are very clear, detailed, and well-documented, with links to Wikipedia articles and discussion pages. Imagine, making a capricious, discriminatory distinction between "crappy" personal blogs and "reputable" and "notable" personal blogs! It's all documented right here, bozo, and you say it's "a bit obscure"? You're sick.
It will take years for other points of view to claw their ways back.

Other points of view are not going to "claw" their way back, because those who hold those other points of view have given up in disgust.
5.19.2009 8:09am
devil's advocate (mail):
Kent,

Finally, a fellow traveler. I might parse the source issue slightly differently. To me it is a source of first resort but not one of significant dignity such that I would commonly footnote to it or rely on it. But even on controversial topics they can't avoid providing useful links and data which might lead to different conclusions than the prosaic version in the wiki article -- works just the IPCC. Take a bunch of data and then have a few political minders write up a summary that says there's a human footprint as if the myriad of scientists who contributed data and analysis had actually said that.

Now as to reliability, I think that might be slightly oversimplified. Yes I think the reliability generally better on non-controversial topics but this isn't black and white. There is some reliable information on controversial topics and vice versa. Indeed, the effort on controversial topics is to sandwich the indoctrination with actual information. The whole idea is to construct something that is plausible.

so there is a risk that someone will take the entirety as gospel, but that is true of your average NYT story or academic pronouncement about how President Bush put arsenic in everybody's water.
5.19.2009 8:22am
Sigivald (mail):
Ira Matetsky said: A notable improvement within the past couple of years is the use of "noindex" coding so that our back-office discussions such a deletion debates themselves don't show up on Google. The use of "noindex" to keep certain types of not-ready-for-prime-time Wikipedia content off of search engines should be expanded.

Ah, such notable transaprency, eh?

Avatar said: Well, the number of disused rural train stops in England is finite and not increasing rapidly. The number of webcomics that could argue that they deserve a page... well, it's finite, but only technically.

Seriously, folks! There are other places for that sort of thing.


Why?

Space is free for Wikipedia*. Wikipedia is not damaged by having a list of notionally-notable webcomics; it is arguably damaged by having "what's notable and what isn't" argued by a clique of editors and operators who can "ignore all rules" when it suits them.

It's not printed. It's not reviewed by salaried people who will drain it dry with overtime if there's "too much content" for them to check.

Why not have all sorts of marginally important data in Wikipedia, on their own pages, completely not interfering with any other uses?

*Not literally, but close enough as makes no difference.
5.19.2009 7:28pm
MikeT:
I think it's bizzare to say wikipedia is 100% useless, even if I politically agreed with DangerMouse. I almost never use wikipedia to search for current events, you can just use google and get 100's of different viewpoints on any current event using newspapers and blogs. It's an amazing resource when you want to find out information on a particular Civil War battle, or some obscure 13th century Pope, or ...

Out of the millions of articles, how many are really controversial?
5.21.2009 7:04am
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
MikeT said,
I think it's bizzare to say wikipedia is 100% useless, even if I politically agreed with DangerMouse.

I wouldn't say that Wikipedia is 100% useless, but I would say that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
Out of the millions of articles, how many are really controversial?

Wikipedia's biased treatment of particular controversies has shown that Wikipedia is not set up to handle controversies. Wikipedia is untrustworthy.

Wikipedia is the most popular reference on the Internet. Many people are going to get misinformation by relying on Wikipedia for information on some controversial topics.
5.21.2009 6:30pm

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