Peter Robinson has a piece in Forbes.com today on the discovery by David Brooks, Christopher Buckley, and David Gergen that President Obama is actually a liberal:
A couple of implications here are worth noting. The first is that a deep, recurring pattern of American life has asserted itself yet again: the cluelessness of the elite.
Buckley, Gergen and Brooks all attended expensive private universities, then spent their careers moving among the wealthy and powerful who inhabit the seaboard corridor running from Washington to Boston. If any of the three strolled uninvited into a cocktail party in Georgetown, Cambridge or New Haven, the hostess would emit yelps of delight. Yet all three originally got Obama wrong.
Contrast Buckley, Gergen and Brooks with, let us say, Rush Limbaugh, whose appearance at any chic cocktail party would cause the hostess to faint dead away, or with Thomas Sowell, who occupies probably the most unfashionable position in the country, that of a black conservative.
Limbaugh and Sowell both got Obama right from the very get-go. "Just what evidence do you have," Sowell replied when I asked, shortly before the election, whether he considered Obama a centrist, "that he's anything but a hard-left ideologue?"
The elite journalists, I repeat, got Obama wrong. The troglodytes got him right. As our national drama continues to unfold, bear that in mind.
I was actually present at that interview with Thomas Sowell and I recall that was the moment at which it began to dawn on me that there was simply no factual basis for believing that Obama was anything except extremely liberal.
I don't know that I would agree with Peter that the main problem here is the cluelessnes of the elite, although that is at least part of it. The passion for these ObamaCons and their desire to believe against all evidence that Obama was a moderate I think was spurred in large part because of their revulsion against Sarah Palin. In that sense, the polite establishment position was to distance oneself from the yahoos in the Republican Party in favor of the urbane Obama (although I'm not quite sure how Joe Biden fits in here). Whatever the motivation, the desire of many to believe that Obama was a moderate was really just a triumph of wishful thinking and a desire to believe that was true, rather than any actual facts.
I think that there were a few other factors that drove the willingness of Brooks, Buckley, Gergen, et al., to believe that Obama was a moderate, despite all evidence to the contrary. First, Obama himself seems like he should be a political moderate because his personality comes across as so calm and moderate. Most people, whether far-right or far-left tend to have more extreme personalities as well. Obama doesn't come across as a radical bomb-thrower (remember Brooks's fawning profile of Obama's discussion of Niebuhr?). So there is a tendency to infer from Obama's calm personality that he is a moderate. Second, some of the ideas that are floating around (like new tax increases and aggressive regulation in the midst of a recession and unrestrained budget-busting spending) just seemed so implausible that I think there was a tendency to discount them as something that Obama simply wasn't serious about and that perhaps they were nothing more than political posturing. Turns out it looks like he was serious about them.
As I confessed back in the fall, until I really looked at his positions carefully (prompted by Sowell's comment) that Obama's extremism really sunk in to me. For those with more of a personal crush on Obama (or a desire to want to believe in him) it looks like it took a longer time for this to sink in.
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Hardly a rational sequence of logic there. Not at all unusual among the pundit/clueless class. They get ZERO sympathy from me.
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And, FWIW, others look at the same Obama statements that you do, and do not conclude there is any "extremism."
You made my point...and a lot more succinctly.
Gergen &Brooks???
I think I can answer that one.
Put you right in their with all the Kewl Kids who were trying to be among the intelligentsia.
Dandy way to come to a conclusion
You think the dems and msm had your number? PALIN THE MORON! SPURN PALIN OR BE FOREVER BANNED FROM THE BEST PARTIES!
Nah. All a coinkydink.
2. The other motivation is that they're just opportunists who wanted to be on the winning side.
3. The elite goes much higher than hacks like Brooks. They clearly wanted BHO to win, otherwise they could have easily had their MSM friends destroy his candidacy.
Obama is "one of us". Well read, well spoken, well educated. He also is very good looking in a suit. He is cool, he is hip, he has a toned and beautiful intelligent wife.
In short, he is everything those in the "bobo" class want to be.
Granted I am a race traitor (many of those I interact with cannot understand how I voted for the yahoo). But I can understand the feeling of solidarity our class has with Obama.
So Brooks did not see someone who showed little indication of conservatism and moderate politics his entire career. He saw "one of us" and voted his class accordingly.
Or, maybe it's when your trust fund is tanking and you might have to go get a real job for the first time in your life.
The fact is that the people who labelled Obama as a "socialist" are proclaiming victory pursuant to nothing other than their own judgment. Well, that's great, but in other news, people who are unaccustomed to changing their mind seldom feel that they have been proven wrong.
The whole thing was about race. A white guy so clearly talking out of both sides of his mouth would have been mocked as a joke, even considering Palin and media bias and Bush fatigue and everything else.
Obama campaigned quite openly as a liberal Democrat and he won. People who thought of him as a "moderate centrist" mistook personality for policy. After all, nice people can't possibly have politics other than mine, can they? Or maybe they thought he didn't mean what he said. "Disillusionment" isn't a synonym for "I saw what I wanted to see."
(There wasn't a point to this post, other than to rag on Biden, which is its own justification. As someone on NRO's Corner pointed out a while ago, the actual "historic" moment on election day was that America believed it was a good idea to have Joe Biden one heartbeat away from the Presidency.)
NO Guns!
ALL Gays!
NO Smoking!
SURRENDER to Terrorists!
LEGISLATE no more jobs for White Men!
EUTHANIZE All the infirm!
That's right, ladies and gents! For the low, low price of paying attention only to financial policy, you too can make YOUR PRESIDENT an Xtreme Liberal! Pay no attention to social issues and ignore any future non-liberal policies once you've created your narrative!
You, too can feel the hope you will win in 2010 AND 2012 because America was bamboozled! It's easy AND fun!
Xtreme Liberalism, Xtreme Liberalism, Xtreme Liberalism!
Start blaming today!
Check this out to see why he not only a liberal but is a flaming liberal:
Obama's Radicalism
Or, to put it another way, I bet even the Communist Party USA has an internal wing of members it views as "extreme", whereas the distinction may not make a lot of difference when considering the global spectrum.
Obama proposes that the top rate now be 39%, which it was as recently as that dark period of communism known as the 90s.
Were Truman, Nixon and Eisenhower radical extremists?
An intellectually honest person simply cannot look at the modern history of this country and posit Obama as a "radical." He certainly is more "leftist" (I love how that word is now common parlance btw, as if Obama emerged from an equatorial jungle wearing fatigues) than Bush, but it is truly ridiculous to say that falling to the left of Bush makes one some sort of revolutionary.
Please try to debate the ideas rather than devolve to name calling.
Our so-called "center-right" nation now overwhelmingly trusts Democrats over Republicans on economic issues - by a 48-20 percent margin.
One of these days, the Republican Party leadership will reflect its membership--and probably start winning elections with regularity. And at that point, we'll make a point of rubbing the noses of the elites in the crap that they gave us because Governor Palin reminded you that there's someone besides the elite in America.
What concerns us are creeping nationalization of industries, cap-and-trade and the inevitable corruption it will introduce, while reducing us to a Third World nation, his enthusiasm for disarming law-abiding adults for the benefit of Mexico, and his willingness to destroy any economic future for our children.
It's a revulsion against the utter quagmire so-called Republican conservatism got us into by the end of 2008.
An economy destroyed, at least in significant part, by unregulated free market financial chicanery. Budget-busting by a Republican Congress and Republican President, including huge new deficits (and NOW you're concerned ?!). An ill-planned war in the Middle East - fine in concept, disastrous in execution. And, most contemptibly, an attempt to make Richard Nixon's "Imperial Presidency" look like Disneyland in comparison, complete with claims to unfettered wiretapping, unlimited and indefinite detention of anyone deemed suspect, and torture.
After that, even a leftier Obama than expected is, quite frankly, a huge relief.
The really, really ludicrous thing is how many of the superior class, or as an earlier commenter referred to, the "bobo" class, figured Biden would be a better Veep than Palin.
Recovering Law Grad said:
And RLG cited nothing more than tax rates to make his argument. Well, I'll repeat: Check this out; it ain't just about taxes!:
Obama's Radicalism
And torture? Obama's CIA director Panetta refused to characterize waterboarding as torture.
Yes, those far left radicals James Baker and Alan Greenspan are agitating for bank nationalization. You know who isn't supporting nationalization? Comrade Obama.
Seriously, don't conservatives throw cocktail parties? I'm friends with some conservatives who know how to make a drink and have a good time. There certainly were a bunch of conservatives in D.C. -- and yes, Georgetown -- in recent years. How come they don't have seductive cocktail parties?
In fact, I would guess a near majority of cocktail parties in Georgetown are right-of-center. As opposed to, say, Tenleytown or Bethesda, where that charge might actually make some sense.
As a former DC resident (Adams Morgan, more liberal cocktail parties), I agree with your geographic breakdown. But in the right-wing blogosphere, it's only conservatives going to liberal cocktail parties and then getting converted. Maybe the liberals just have the better hors d'oeurves.
The faux-populist stuff from the right is getting pretty deep these days. I guess all those pointy-headed elites in Ohio just didn't understand what a genuine article "Joe the Plumber" was when the state went for Obama.
They do, but you have to bring you own wetsuit.
Shorter Clayton Cramer: stooopid Americans are too stooopid to know what's good for them. If they just stopped thinking for themselves and listened to non-elites like myself they'd have much better opinions.
Please substantiate this premise.
But I agree with several posters that pegging obama as hard-core leftwing socialist is only possible from a certain vantage point (on the far right).
Sarcastro:
For the low, low price of paying attention only to financial policy ...
who is calling Obama Xtreme liberal "... for paying attention only to financial policy"?
as Orin Kerr commented a few days ago, the shtick falls flat if you have to invent stuff to make fun of.
Left-wing bloggers like Atrios and Glen Greenwald are keenly critical of liberals who are corrupted by conservative cocktail parties. They call them journalists.
The "wanted to vote for a cool black guy" theory of the 2008 election fails to account for, among other things, the complete thumping the Democrats gave to the Republicans at pretty much every level of government (see, e.g., Congress) for the second straight election.
Thanks goodness for balance! Although I am not one myself, I always knew that conservatives could be decent hosts.
Adjusting for inflation, the tax bracket at which the 90% rate kicked in for 1963 was over $2.7 million in annual income. From 1972 to 1981 the top rate for earned income (primarily salary and wage income) was 50%.
Michael Steele calls that the "bling-bling" effect.
His liberal voting record, his associations with extremists in Chicago (Ayers, Wright, etc) and his creepy authoritarian speeches should have given it away. To us that were paying attention, it did.
The funny thing is that conservatives like Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber saw then what these so-called elites are seeing now, and apparently the former are the dunces and the latter are the enlightened ones. Once again, they've been proven to be wrong, but they'll never give credit where credit is due - to conservatives like Palin and Joe the Plumber.
Also Brooks et al can take comfort in the fact that even though Obama is liberal he, unlike his predecessor, is at least a pragmatic politician. That tends to temper one's ideological tendencies and thus far I think that has been the case. Perhaps there is some buyers' remorse out there but it's unfounded and irrational.
These labels ceased to have meaning long ago.
Why do you think that so much of his personal history from birth certificate, to medical record, to transcripts and thesis is censored? HE IS HIDING THINGS! He has been managed by a team of Chicago pols and he is the product of that process.
I believe Obama is lazy and has history that wouldn't be acceptable in a professional ball player. It isn't that he is evil, it's just that he has no idea what he is doing. He is the very sheltered high school kid who finds he can force the nation to move in directions urged by comic book heroes.
In the very short run, we can only hope that "journalists" will do what the wouldn't do when they should have.
If this is true, and if the CBO knows what day it is, then doing more is worse than doing less and doing more than has ever been done before is worse than anything ever done before.
To put it in more moderate terms, some of this might not actually be necessary.
As some have pointed out, we got here without problems of too-few college grads, lack of regulation on energy policy, and with chaotic health care arrangements. Which is to say, fixing those isn't going to address the problems. And those are the focus of the stimpak, not the actual problems.
Is it true that we're going to have 250,000 more federal employees, or is that the total between feds, state and local?
Out of curiosity, who are these nefarious Chicago pols who are pulling the strings behind the scene? I've long suspected Ozzie Guillen's involvement, and I note with some interest that Matt Forte's ascension of the ranks of fantasy football coincided almost exactly with Obama's triumph in the Democratic primary. It's suspicious, at least.
I really have never understood the Obama "temperament" thing. He doesn't seem any more calm or poised than any other politician who has never had a public blowup. And when he gets into his call-and-response "fired up/ready to go" thing, or puts on preacher-man voice and starts talking about the rise of the oceans slowing, well, he doesn't look calm or moderate at all.
There's probably some racism here. You see a black guy and you expect him to be angry. When he's not yelling at you, you call him "calm and moderate." I submit that "temperament" is the new "articulate."
I would be more concerned if he had eight the election.
First of all, he wouldn't have given $1 trillion dollars to liberal interest groups. He also would be trying to fix the financial crisis before trying to bring in the socialist paradise.
Anyone who voted for Obama expecting anything other than what he is delivering now is a chump.
Most of the posters here seem to think he is some kind of moderate Republican.
Let's make sure that I understand the argument.
You thought that Bush's deficits were bad (although not bad enough to propose less spending). So now you think that even larger deficits are okay.
Seriously, why didn't we just elect the CBO as president. We'd probably be out of the recession already.
Are you saying that he wouldn't have put forth a similar massive stimulus bill? Or is your complaint merely with the particulars of which interest groups are getting the pork?
Keep in mind that in October, 2008 McCain had no problem voting for Bush's $700 billion dollar bailout bill, which was just as loaded with pork. Indeed, if McCain is to believed, it wouldn't have passed without his leadership.
I certainly agree that comparing those rates to today's rates isn't apples-to-apples, as I alluded to in my parenthatical. But this supports my argument: what Obama is attempting do is nowhere near as radical as a 90% income tax on people making more than $2.7mm/year. Obama's plan cannot seriously be called "extremist" if it wasn't as aggressive as what we had during the wildly liberal 1950s. When your tax policy is to the right of Eisenhower, how can you be a radical communist?
(As to the actual rates, here's where I'm getting my info: www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts)
Democrats put this "loot the next generation for the benefit of our rich friends" bill together at the time when their own economists were telling them the economy would pull out if in a few more months.
Democrats are just thieves.
E.g., a stimulus package that consisted of 1/3 tax cuts, an Iraq withdrawal that the GOP roundly supports, and intensifying our involvement in Afghanistan. Sounds pretty moderate to me!!
True, Obama has spent lots of money. However, this is a deep, deep recession, and the majority of economists believe federal spending is the most effective way to end a recession. Thus, the increased spending shouldn't necessarily brand Obama a radical half-commie liberal pinko, like many commenting on this blog would have us believe.
Well, cut taxes of course!!! Don't you know that cutting taxes and getting involved in foreign wars ALWAYS solves America's problems...especially when not accompanied by any spending cuts. The deficit just magically vanishes, government will magically get smaller, though we shouldn't ask conservatives or centrists to do it, there's too many important things to be done by government. On the other hand attempting to stave off a recession is VERY unimportant compared to protecting America from non-existent WMD's that Iraq doesn't have the rocket capability to send anywhere near America anyway.
1) I don't think his endorsement was because he believed Obama to be a moderate, but that Obama was, apolitically, more suited to the job (temperment, education, leadership). Indeed, I believe he entertained the possibility that he'd govern like a tax-and-spend-and-tariff liberal, and just said he hopes that doesn't happen (with some bravado of overstatement).
2) I don't think his recent article criticizing Obama says that he thinks McCain can at all be properly said to be "admit"ting that Obama "may have indeed done worse--a lot worse."
Hint: two substantial bombings in recent American history were delivered by Ryder truck.
I think that the list could be continued for a long time.
Maybe a good starting place would have been Rush's idea of chopping up the "stimulus" amount by votes in the last election, spending the Democratic portion as increased government spending, and the Republican share as actual tax cuts (instead of the pretend "tax cuts" in the "stimulus" package that were instead redistributionist refundable tax credits to those who aren't paying income taxes already). That would have been fairly centrist.
I'm not convinced that a centrist wouldn't take the exact same approach that Obama is, given the state of things. I would like to know what people would consider a "centrist" response to the current crisis.
A centrist, or a rational person, would do any number of things differently then BO is doing. First he would exercise some leadership by being a positive person rather than expressing the constant negativity as he has done over the last several months. Yes we have a crises! But the day to day drumming is not a positive thing. People, including investors, are not going to buy or invest if our president doesn’t believe in the future and make them believe in the future. He has, on occasions, made some positive remarks. But they have not been convincing. By in large his daily verbal rants on the economy have terrorized the populace and have helped freeze the markets. FDR at least said “You have nothing to fear but fear itself”. Would that Obama were so comforting.
In addition, with the nation already plunging deep into debt to rescue the financial system and stimulate the economy, Obama's proposals for many hundreds of billions in additional spending on universal health care, universal postsecondary education, a massive overhaul of the energy economy, and other liberal programs are grandiose and unaffordable, to say nothing about the possibility of rampant runaway inflation. These alone, though further down the pike are near enough so that a rational person knows they will stall and reverse any recovery. Additionally, the “stimulus proposals” are hardly adequate. We need tax reduction where they will do some good, e.g., Capital gains, dividend taxes, rather than reducing incentives by raising them. We need to encourage investment by our entrepreneurs. At the present they are afraid to invest because they are fearful of the “leadership” in Washington.
Well, you asked what a “centrist” would do differently. There you have a good chunk of it.
What unmitigated horseshyt!
Did Mr. Peter Robinson, man of the people that he is, dash off that column before or after he finished slopping the hogs this morning and rebuilding the baler on his combine?
Oh wait, Mr. anti-elite is a "fellow at the Hoover Institute.
Since when do payroll taxes not count as real taxes? Where does this nonsense come from? People who pay payroll taxes pay taxes!
It is true that even workers who do not earn enough to pay federal income taxes are still eligible for a tax credit. It is simply false to say that these are the ONLY workers who are seeing their taxes go down.
One thing that's really looking-up: all the treacly earnestness seems to have given way to a huge dose of sarcasm from all quarters. That's change I can believe in!
How come Bush's refundable tax credits (the child tax credit, for example) count as "tax cuts", but Obama's are "transfers from tax payers to non-tax payers"?
They are NOT taxes! Gore told me they go into a lockbox for my future.
I am an Asian-American and have no such guilt to cope with, and hence can call it as I see it.
No one paid the top marginal rate because it was so easy to avoid it. That’s why the AMT was enacted, why spaghetti western’s got made, why tax attorneys were sexy and made dentists and doctors. The tax system as you know it was enacted by Tip O’Neil and Reagan, it cut taxes, broadened the base and annihilated all the hum drum easy shelters. Go read General Utilities for an elementary example of why no one paid those rates.
How pragmatic are carbon taxes?
"That reminds me -- have we privatized Social Security yet? Because I think that's something a moderate President would be interested in approaching."
Good point. I'd be very supportive. Buy low, sell high. Progressives in the 22nd Century will wonder why we didn't.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/06/opinion/06brooks.html?_r=1
Pretty dramatic reversal. Brooks still things they are trying to do "too much ... too fast" but he's "optimistic".
It seems to be a general human failing to decide, and hen attend to those things that fit the decision, instead of seeing first and deciding later.
I am an Asian-American and have no such guilt to cope with, and hence can call it as I see it.
I'm a descendant of pre-Civil War white Americans and I feel no such guilt. I'm responsible for my own actions, not the actions of my ancestors. I voted for Obama for reasons having nothing to do with race.
Obama is a classic conservative, seeking to emulate the greats of the past - Lincoln, FDR, Clinton (personnel-wise) rather than striking out in a novel direction. Just because those currently in power in our institutions tend to label themselves progressives to avoid confronting their own mortality (as their supporters in the rising generation do avoid confronting their own conformity and authority-worship), it does not therefore follow that actual progress is something they seek or even consider possible.
Rather there is a somewhat desperate clinging to the eternal verities and focus on demonizing heretics, embodied by the consistent comments here pointing out how unconservative self-described conservatives actually are and have been. This is entirely true, but arises from the fact that the actual conservatives (and reactionaries) have already taken the progressive and liberal labels.
My first thought on reading this post was that no one here had paid attention to Brooks for about a year. He was so not an 'Obamacon' during the election; on the contrary, he just jumped all over the place on a more or less daily basis.
Watching him on The News Hour was painful: he realized the Bush years had been a disaster, but he wanted to note all the many good things Dubya achieved; he thought McCain was a decent guy, but he noted that McCain was not behaving decently; he thought Palin was a terrible and insulting veep choice, but he was not sure anyone should hold that against McCain. And on and on.
Seconded. (Or thirded.)
I see. And that's relevant because now the 90% (or 50%) rate kicks in where?
It's mighty thoughtful of you to contribute so generously to the Sarcastro project, but dial it down a little. It's not your job to provide the satire.
"Seconded. (Or thirded.)"
Dissent. Unless you can explain to me how the category "right" is relevant in this context.
Contrast Buckley, Gergen and Brooks with, let us say, Rush Limbaugh, . . ., or with Thomas Sowell.
Not that much of a contrast with Thomas Sowell (Harvard undergrad, Columbia masters, U Chicago PhD).
And if rich conservatives don't hold parties, that not the fault of liberals, rich or otherwise.
Admittedly Limbaugh is a dropout (from Southeast Missouri State). He's just the perfect Republican role model isn't he? I can see why the Democrats are gloating about how Republican office holders all have to grovel before him.
Republicans supported Palin for precisely the same reason. Despite it being painfully obvious she wasn't up to the job, they supported her anyway because they regarded her as one of them.
After the last few weeks, it is pretty clear she was the most qualified for the job of the four people on the major party tickets.
One can certainly still argue not qualified enough, but considering the unmitigated disaster the Obama administration has already proven itself to be, that is a rather pedantic quibble.
Thomas Sowell's not afraid about not fitting in. But Thomas Sowell's the exception. Everyone else is a snob, or resentful of snobs.
What a joke.
Nope. As Mark Steyn said, more or less, "NOK,D". Not Our Kind, Dear
Also, thinkers get a bit nervous when doers show up. And the intelligentsia are notable for doing very little.
If so, only recently. See: the 20th Century.
How ironic. Your "Palin Rumors list" is a joke. It includes statements that are "demonstrably false," and which you've failed to correct even though this has been pointed out to you on multiple occasions (example, example, example).
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hinton:
For some strange reason you seem to be trying to divert attention from her biggest problem: she's a liar (proof, proof).
So, while the tax rates during the Eisenhower years were much higher, taxpayers had a great many ways to avoid paying that rate. Most of those avoidance techniques are no longer available.
Yes, Bush made a proposal. And let's pay attention to what happened next (from the same article you cited):
So far so good. And eventually the House passed a bill. Let's pay attention to what Oxley (R) said about what happened to that bill:
Yes, so I guess "the Democrats stopped it" by exerting mind control over Bush, who ended up opposing the bill.
And they also exerted mind control over Republicans in Congress. The bill we're talking about is H.R. 1461: the Federal Housing Finance Reform Act of 2005. What eventually happened to that bill? It died in committee in 2005. Here was the "Last Action:"
Can you remember back that far? At the time, the GOP controlled both houses of Congress, which means it controlled the House Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs. And that's where the bill died: in that committee. Please explain how Democrats are responsible for the fact that the bill was killed by a GOP-controlled committee.
And here's why the bill died: conservatives opposed it:
Last time I checked, AEI was not controlled by Democrats. Why are you claiming the bill was blocked by Democrats?
They were something worse than "half-hearted." Bush said "the low-income homebuyer can have just as nice a house as anybody else." And he suggested that it's a good idea to give loans to people with "bad credit histories."
But of course I'm sure there was quite an outcry from the GOP when he made those statements. I just can't find it. Can you? And speaking of finding things, can you find examples of Democrats praising the GSEs for making loans to people with "bad credit histories?" I can't.
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calderon:
$250K in today's dollars is the equivalent of about $32,000 in 1951. So what was the marginal rate for a couple showing income of $32,000 in 1951? Answer: 51% (pdf). A lot higher than what Obama is proposing for the same (inflation-adjusted) income level. So if Obama is a socialist, I guess Ike and JFK were uber-socialists.
So it's not just that the top rate was much higher back then. The other rates were higher, too.
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lucius:
You're essentially making a statement about the effective tax rate. I can find figures for that going back to 1979. Can you find that data for "the Eisenhower years?" I can't.
By the way, there are still plenty of ways to dodge taxes. That's how we end up with a situation like this:
Just because something was accepted at one time in past doesn't mean it can't be extremist now. (I'm sure we both can think of extreme examples like slavery, feudalism, monarchies, etc., but the princples applies to more sundry items as well) For example, if someone proposed marginal income tax rates of 90% on income of $2.5 million or higher now, I'd considered that "extremist" now since no other nation (including Denmark and Sweden) has income tax rates that are close to being that high. There's also a significant difference between increasing taxes on 5% of the population and .01% of the population (or whatever the number is that was making more than $2.7 million back in the fifties and sixties)
As far as what people say about Obama's "extremism" now, I'd generally agree it's overblown at the moment. A couple of examples of economic actions I plausibly think Obama might do in the future that I'd consider extreme would be (1) nationalizing banks and not privatizing them by the end of his term; (2) removing the FICA cap, so as to increase income taxes by 12.4% on all income over X dollars. Politicizing the census bureau seems problematic as well and a page from Chicago-style politics.
Indeed, all tax rates were higher back then. So Obama is proposing across-the-board tax increases at all income levels, right?
By the way, there are still plenty of ways to dodge taxes. That's how we end up with a situation like this:
Those dastardly rich people. Taking advantage of lower tax rates for qualified dividend and capital gains income written into the income tax code. They should be jailed for following the incentives provided by the law.
Now you can just bank with UBS.
People who have so much that they don't earn it, shift it, dividend it, don't move money.
Do we want a tax on wealth?
Just asking.
BTW. Saw a few moments of a C-Span piece of some writers discussing O. It was at a bookstore with the usual pony-tailed guys and granny-skirted women.
One writer said she'd googled O's speeches and found a phrase from Saul Bellow. "He read Saul Bellow!" He read Saul Bellow. Terrific. Better if he'd read Heinlein and Asimov.
Another writer mentioned the books John McCain and Sarah Palin had read, total, might be one or two, or perhaps he meant one or two from The Anointed One's list. But, given the kyukkyuk of knowing, superior, required in that context, laughter from those whose idea of productive activity is to visit a bookstore along with several dozen of those who think just like them. I was impressed, I can tell you.
Another writer was making a pretty good case the O didn't start becoming African American until he got interested in politics. He was interrupted by Susan Jacoby who segued to the wonderfulness of having read Saul Bellow.
Yeah. Fabulous advertisement for the superiority of the intelligentsia.
Right. Black candidates have always enjoyed a huge electoral advantage over their white opponents because of guilt over slavery. Just look at the diproportionate number of black governors and senators we've had in recent years. Why, it's positively overwhelming.
Where do you guys get this stuff? Do you think about it for even two seconds before you post it?
It's part of their collective consciousness, aka Shitegeist.
Nobody said "always". Where do you get this crap?
More to the point, do you think nobody noticed?
Skip the de-caf, man.
I hope you convince the GOP to take the position that Obama should raise taxes on everyone, and not just on the rich.
Nice job with the straw man. That wasn't my point. I didn't suggest that anyone should pay more taxes than what's required by "the law." My point is that there's something wrong with "the law" when the 400 richest Americans pay the same rate as someone earning $123,000. And my point also is that there are still plenty of ways for the rich to dodge taxes (contrary to what lucius suggested).
Works for me. If we're going to be raising taxes let's do it on everyone. We'll raise more revenue and have a better opportunity to pay off the deficit. Though since Obama and the Democrats control the presidency and Congress, how about you work on convincing them to do an across-the-board tax increase and I'll work on convincing 2 GOP senators.
Nice job with the straw man. That wasn't my point. I didn't suggest that anyone should pay more taxes than what's required by "the law." My point is that there's something wrong with "the law" when the 400 richest Americans pay the same rate as someone earning $123,000. And my point also is that there are still plenty of ways for the rich to dodge taxes (contrary to what lucius suggested).
Strange. I must have missed the part of your post where you argued that lower taxes on income from savings was a bad idea (which is the cause of the lower tax rates on the wealthy). But of course, your post doesn't say anything about higher taxes on savings and instead talks about ways to "dodge taxes." It's hard to understand how something can be a way to "dodge taxes" when it's explicitly provided and intended under the law.
As a general rule, TAANSTAFL is true. Whether Harsh Mistress would "work", is another question.
Point is, some views of how people function are more useful than others. Bellow is a great novelist if you like great novelists telling you how things go in somebody's life, somebody who had to be made up.
Better read biography.
However, the point I was making was that a bunch of the intelligentsia look really, really faux-superior, and actually inadequate.
No one questions that the White House has been "on the ball" in political, ideological and rhetorical terms. That David Brooks finds a way to change his mind - with the barest of caveats and with the cosmetic note that what the WH offered was "sophisticated and fact-based" (which description itself relies upon taking this WH version of events and motives at face value, questioning none of it) - is not surprising in the least.
So yes, it's clear beyond any doubt whatsoever that the WH is "on the ball" in political, ideological and rhetorical terms. Beyond that, there is nothing of note that is clear, beyond the fact that Obama is clearly in over his head vis-a-vis Iran, in relation to Russia, as pertains to a series of foreign policy appointments (e.g., Samantha Power, Chas Freeman), relative to ideologues of note appointed in other areas (e.g., Browner, Holdren, Holder), as pertains to other areas as well.
But he does have that cadenced rhetoric down.
And he does have an action team ready to confront David Brooks and other perceived dissenters in the media who voice opinions that are "off message."
And you find that reassurring?
So you are saying that liberals didn't know that Obama was a liberal, but voted for him anyway? Doesn't make sense.
"unmitigated disaster" Strange, because Obama's approval ratings are in the high 60s. IF that's a disaster, what do you call W, who was in the low 30s?
michael B: "And he does have an action team ready to confront David Brooks and other perceived dissenters in the media who voice opinions that are "off message."
Unlike W, who of course never went after dissenters. And who always appointed very competent people, like Condi Rice, who could play Putin like a violin, or Bolton, who was so very effective in handling the UN, or, well, I could go on, but it's the results that matter -- Bush screwed up the war in Iraq and the US economy. If you want unmitigated disaster, save the phrase for his presidency.
In this world, all taxes are evil always, all regulation of any kind is evil, and anything that doesn't fit into the Ozzie and Harriet viewpoint of the 1950s is untenable.
W lowered taxes, so that's good. His wars are good (and conversely, any wars started by a democrat such as Clinton are per se evil). The American people were so smart to outwit the liberal press and vote W into office twice, but they suddenly became stupid dupes and voted in Obama.
And so on. (yawn) It was all so predictable -- a conservative can do no wrong, a liberal no right. You guys lost, and you can't stand it. So all you have left is invective. Good thing the majority of Americans can see through all this smoke.
Interesting Video On Fannie Mae And Freddie Mac
All I'm saying is that evidently he has people there who can speak conservative (i.e. couching his policies in terms conservatives understand and targeting them to conservative concerns), whereas the Rovian strategy that relied on peeling off a certain percentage of Reagan democrats and/or moderate liberals eventually showed itself incapable of speaking liberal when necessary, or at least at giving liberals sufficient reason to keep listening.
Obama may eventually fall victim to the same dynamic - I suspect its sort of baked into the cake of our current political climate and will only lift when a clear challenger on the world stage emerges that necessitates moving beyond our present pettiness - but so far the response to Brooks beats anything the Bush White House managed after his first two years in office.
Randy,
You've got the game to move beyond the strawmen.
You could make a nice bonfire with all the strawmen you put together.
Well thought out, appropriate regulations have a place. You need to realize that the time after time unintended consequences of well meaning regulations have caused and continue to cause an immense amount of harm.
Regulations are often used by larger, better capitalized companies to drive there smaller competition out of business. Or as is the case with the compact fluorescent mandate and higher efficiency appliance mandates to take lower cost alternatives away from the consumers.
Regulatory Glamour--and Its Casualties
it is so hard to get conventional reporters to give a damn about the devastating effects of the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act
Of course they do. However, there are some conservatives who are saying that our economic problems arise from too much regulation of the financial markets. Alan Greenspan, who was against regulation, has now come to realize that we should have had more.
In the past eight years, there were many voices on the right claiming that we should have fewer regulations of our food supply, because we can trust business to regulate itself. The result? Salmonella in peanut butter.
And if you can name one Democrat that the conservatives actually approve of, well, please be my guest. (Zell Miller doesn't count).
The Bush administration massively increased the amount of regulations while they were in office.
If you argue otherwise you simply have not been paying attention.
In fact there are reasonable arguments (remember our friend unintended consequences) that some of these regulations (the mark to market provisions of SOX) substantially increased the speed and severity of the current financial crisis.
A few thoughts before I re-enter the fray..
Please don't reply with the tiersome and discredited "if we only had the right people doing the regulations everything would be ok" mantra.
Putting effective regulations together is not easy. Massively increasing the size of the regulatory state makes that task much more difficult.
Obama's assertions to the contrary, the 43rd president was the biggest regulator since Nixon.
Sorry, but this is very confusing. I thought the GOP position is that when tax rates go up, revenue goes down. Are you saying this GOP claim is incorrect?
That's because I only implied it, instead of saying it explicitly. Now I'll say it explicitly: lower taxes on income from savings is a bad idea. And here's some evidence. Bush cut the capital gains tax rate. Now let's compare the Clinton years and the Bush years. Under Clinton, the Dow tripled. Under Bush, it dropped 25%. Clinton created record surpluses. Bush created record deficits. This isn't proof of causation, but it makes it hard to argue that taxing capital gains is going to wreck the economy.
Poor people "dodge taxes" by simply breaking the law. But rich people are much too genteel to do it that way. Instead, they "dodge taxes" by making campaign contributions to people who then modify the tax code in a way that makes those contributions very worthwhile. Then these folks get together to congratulate each other (video). We have the best government money can buy.
===================
duracomm:
When you quote someone and omit words that are part of the original passage, it's customary to use an ellipsis. You chopped out the following words, without leaving any clue that you had done so:
I guess this is your way of letting us know that text you paste in shouldn't be trusted.
You are also failing to address what I demonstrated here. The GSE reform bill was killed by the GOP.
You need to realize that the time after time unintended consequences of (allegedly) well meaning deregulation has caused and continue to cause an immense amount of harm.
That's true, but your statements and citations ignore the importance of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act. Which led directly to Enron and to the massive abuse of credit default swaps. The real architect of this meltdown is Phil Gramm. And some of his key efforts were supported by Clinton. See here and here.
As someone did a nice job of explaining here, the key problem is not regulations that were removed, but the failure to impose appropriate regulations:
And the failure to regulate credit default swaps is a very important element in how we ended up where we are.
What does he seek to do with this power? Not much, really. Push things vaguely in the direction where the people he thinks are most important (i.e. the ones whose opinion of himself he most values) will receive as much rent as possible without triggering a backlash that would make the rest of the voters withdraw their support. Those rent seekers are the real leftists in our society, but they are leading him, not visa versa.
This philosophical pragmatism actually makes him more dangerous today, since Americans would rebel against someone with a transparently left wing ideology. However, since the vast majority of the populace is unable to think conceptually, they are snowed by Obama's apparent reasonableness - he's just trying to figure out what will "work" to "fix" this enormously "complicated" situation. When these efforts fail, there will be a muddled blaming of left-of-center policies, but it will probably be after much long-term damage is done.
Of course, McCain shares many of these traits, with one exception (ok, two: he isn't nearly as charming): the perception of McCain is that he is vaguely rightist, so, as he lead us down the same path of further economic interventionism and foreign policy appeasement, the masses would have more reason to blame individualistic philosophy. We would be only slightly better off than we will be after Obama, but the cause of freedom would have suffered more in the long term.
This is why I held my nose and voted for Obama. I was actually hoping he _would_ be more of an honest liberal. But, I'll take what I can get (and lock in my fixed rate mortgage now, before the coming inflation spike).
Agreed Duracomm. So why didn't conservatives complain about those regulations? Probably for the same reason they didn't complain about the ballooning deficit he created -- because he was a Republican, and Republicans can do nothing wrong.
If Clinton or Obama had issued those exact same regulations, no doubt the rightwing-ephere would be howling, just as they are suddenly howling about the extensive powers the chief executive has, and the deficit spending.
Here's my point: Bill Clinton was actually pretty moderate, yet the right wing developed a cottage industry of hatred towards him. Then when Hillary looked like she was going to be the nominee, another industry cropped up to paint her as the next communist-in-chief. Ditto for Edwards and all the other Democratic nominees.
So regardless of who ever actually is in the White House, as long as they are Democrat, the right wingnuts will hate him/her, and demonize that person.
After all, they haven't any real ideas anymore, so name calling is all they have left. they've gone through socialist, now communist, soon fascist. What word will they use after fascist isn't enough?
Au contraire. As the Washington Post explained today, part of Obama's agenda is to spend money building high speed rail to connect important travel points.
Once a network of bullet trains is established, his power will be consolidated and complete,and that will enable him to usher in the final stage of world domination.
That's fair enough, as far as it goes in terms of political/rhetorical miles. But it doesn't take much to coopt someone like a David Brooks, or a C. Buckley, a Joe Scarborough, etc. In Brooks' rejoinder alone (his Thursday post, following his commentary from only two days previously) he refers to "facts" and "sophistication," but we're forced to take him at his word, which in turn is based upon him taking the administration's action team at their word.
Iow, yes, as far as it goes, which reflects as much depth and transparency as can be seen in a film of oil skimming on a pool of H²O. When the pundit and opinion class reflects as little transparency and depth as the political class, especially so given the current administration and what they've evidenced in more empirical terms, it's less than impressive.
Galactus?
Which provides excellent support to my statement
Jukes comment nicely supports my point because regulations are what often drives the development of instruments like credit default swaps. Unintended regulatory consequences strike once again
That last one, substituting exposures, is important to heavily regulated investors.
I think "revulsed" (neat word) is what the folks say when they really mean frightened.
She really had an executive job. She and her husband performed well in the private sector. She did a hell of a job against the old-boy establishment, more than most governors did.
Against which we had O and Biden. One whose closest approach to executive experience was the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a complete failure, and Biden who's been known for decades as not being bright at all, and something of a loose cannon. He'd be dangerous except that nobody takes him seriously.
One who seemed most comfortable hanging with radicals and machine pols.
When it came to electability, Palin had to be Alinsky-ed. And she was.
Worked pretty well.
Those who did it already know decent people despise them, so there wasn't any further downside.
This is pretty Orwellian. Yes, after regulations are written there are smart people who come along and figure out clever ways to get rich by circumventing the regulations (and never mind that this eventually leads to the kind of disaster we're now dealing with). But this doesn't mean that the proper solution is to get rid of regulations. The proper solution is to figure out how to make them simple and effective. That task is difficult, but it's also possible and necessary.
Unfortunately I don't have time to respond to your entire post (guess I'll need to go full John Galt at some point) but wanted to flag this. Clinton &Congress (odd how many people always omit the legislature) passed a large capital gains tax cut in 1997, which you fail to point out.
At the start of the Clinton years, the maximum capital gains tax was 28% (pdf). In 1997, it became 20%. In 2003, it became 15%. So Clinton cut the rate, but then Bush cut it again.
During Clinton's first term, when the 28% rate was in effect, the Dow more than doubled. Which makes it hard to argue that a rate that high will kill the Dow or the economy. Especially when you notice that in Bush's first term the Dow was flat, and in his second term it dropped by 25%. Even though the rate was much lower (20% and then 15%).
One blogger noted that the media loved Carter and hated Reagan, while Wall Street disliked Carter and liked Reagan. The media were wrong both times and Wall Street was right. Today, the media like O and Wall Street doesn't.
Just sayin'.
And they (Democrats) also exerted mind control over Republicans in Congress. The bill we're talking about is H.R. 1461: the Federal Housing Finance Reform Act of 2005. What eventually happened to that bill? It died in committee in 2005. Here was the "Last Action:"
Oct 31, 2005: Received in the Senate and Read twice and referred to the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs.
Can you remember back that far? At the time, the GOP controlled both houses of Congress, which means it controlled the House Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs. And that's where the bill died: in that committee. Please explain how Democrats are responsible for the fact that the bill was killed by a GOP-controlled committee.
And here's why the bill died: conservatives opposed it:
H.R. 1461: A GSE "Reform" That Is Worse than Current Law - HR 1461--a bill that was supposed to create a “world class regulator”--is in fact a world class failure. Not only does it fail to improve significantly upon the regulatory authority of the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO), but it actually increases the opportunities for Fannie and Freddie to exploit their subsidies in order to expand into other areas of residential finance. While the bill makes some modest improvements to the weak regulatory structure of OFHEO today, these improvements do not bring the authority of the new regulator of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to the level currently exercised by federal bank regulators. Moreover, the deficiencies of the bill so far outweigh its modest regulatory improvements that the taxpayers and the economy generally would be better off with current law. Under these circumstances, unless there is a reasonable chance that the bill can be strengthened on the House floor, in the Senate, or in conference, it does not deserve to proceed further in the legislative process.
Last time I checked, AEI was not controlled by Democrats. Why are you claiming the bill was blocked by Democrats?
"They were something worse than "half-hearted." [efforts by Bush to control problem.] Bush said "the low-income homebuyer can have just as nice a house as anybody else." And he suggested that it's a good idea to give loans to people with "bad credit histories."
First, let's refer to a statement by President Bush on H.R. 1461 and why he opposed the bill. Bush was pretty clear why he opposed what had become of H.R. 1461 when his administration issued a Statement of Policy on 10/26/05 which included the following statements:
"H.R. 1461 fails to include key elements that are essential to protect the safety and soundness of the housing finance system and the broader financial system at large. As a result, the Administration opposes the bill."
and:
The dramatic growth of the housing GSEs over the last decade, as well as recent accounting and operational problems, underscore the importance of protecting the broader financial markets from systemic risks caused by their actions. The housing GSEs' outstanding debt is approximately $2.5 trillion, and they provide credit guarantees on another $2.4 trillion of mortgages. By comparison, the privately held debt of the Federal government is $4.1 trillion. Housing GSE debt is issued largely to support sizable portfolio investments that are unnecessary to fulfill the GSEs' housing mission. Given the size and importance of the GSEs, Congress must ensure that their large mortgage portfolios do not place the U.S. financial system at risk. H.R. 1461 fails to provide critical policy guidance in this area."
The Statement of Policy also stated:
"The Administration strongly believes that the housing GSEs should be focused on their core housing mission, particularly with respect to low-income Americans and first-time homebuyers. Instead, provisions of H.R. 1461 that expand mortgage purchasing authority would lessen the housing GSEs' commitment to low-income homebuyers. Likewise, provisions that divert profits will lead to increased risk-taking and decreased market discipline, while exacerbating systemic risk.
The Administration remains committed to bringing real reform to the housing GSEs and looks forward to continuing to work with Congress to ensure that the needed reforms are part of any final legislation."
From what I can find, the problem was that H.R. 1461 never had the requisite changes that Bush wanted to see. For more on that, there's an excellent chronology on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, with information on H.R. 1461 provided by the Wall Street Journal. Although House Editorials, there's plenty of information that can be gleaned that provides illumination on H.R. 1461 and how inadequate some believed it was. First, see what the WSJ had to say on 05/09/05 about Congressman Oxley's legislation. Here is what was written in regards to MBSs held by Fannie and Freddie:
"The sensible policy response is to wind down their portfolio of MBSs. As Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan has testified, repurchased MBSs do little or nothing to fulfill the companies' Congressional mandate to promote housing. Apart from a small amount needed for liquidity, they merely pad Fannie's private profit while increasing the public risk to taxpayers if something goes awry. Mr. Greenspan and Treasury Secretary John Snow have thus recommended that the portfolio of MBSs be limited via law or Congressional policy guidance."
and specifically on objections to H.R. 1461:
"Enter Mr. Oxley, who wants to toss the MBS question to the new regulator that Congress is creating to monitor Fan and Fred. That regulator in turn would be able to pare back the MBS portfolios only if they posed a threat to safety and soundness. By the time any regulator came to that conclusion, of course, a crisis would be well under way -- or such a judgment might trigger one. This means there are effectively no MBS portfolio limits in the Oxley bill."
In another House Editorial on 10/25/05, the WSJ writes about H.R. 1461 which was reported out of the House Committee on Financial Services by a vote of 65-5:
"In the event of a more serious misstep, Uncle Sam would be on the hook for some or all of the liabilities of these two federal nephews. This implicit taxpayer backing is the reason Fannie and Freddie can borrow at bargain-basement prices in the first place, and it is one of the reasons that Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan has argued that Fan and Fred pose a "systemic risk" to financial markets."
"Chairman Oxley seems oblivious to all this, focusing instead on raising PAC contributions and showing he can pass a bill by giving Mr. Frank whatever he wants. His bill does nothing to empower Fannie and Fred's regulator to reduce the size of their $1 trillion-plus portfolios of mortgage-backed securities, which pose this systemic risk."
There were attempts to have to have the regulator proposed in the Oxley bill have more abilities to reduce risk. The WSJ also stated in their 10/25/05 Editorial:
"His (Oxley's) bill does nothing to empower Fannie and Fred's regulator to reduce the size of their $1 trillion-plus portfolios of mortgage-backed securities, which pose this systemic risk.
Senator Richard Shelby's Banking Committee has passed a bill that would give the new regulator this power. But if the Oxley bill passes in its present form, that power will be stripped out of the Senate bill in conference. So Congressman Ed Royce (R., Calif.) has proposed an amendment to the Oxley bill -- to be considered by the House Rules Committee today -- that would insert a single line into the 238-page bill allowing the new regulator to weigh systemic risk when evaluating the safety and soundness of Fan and Fred activities."
From what I can find, Royce's amendment was not approved.
Clearly, there was concern from some quarters that H.R. 1461 was not going to be able to provide the ability to reduce risks to public funds and economic stability when GSEs hold such a large quantity of Mortgage Backed Securities.
But of course I'm sure there was quite an outcry from the GOP when he made those statements. I just can't find it. Can you? And speaking of finding things, can you find examples of Democrats praising the GSEs for making loans to people with "bad credit histories?" I can't.
Not concerning bad credit histories, as far as I can find. But there was a effort that went back as least as far as the Clinton Administration that espoused finding different ways to get people in homes, even if they did not have the income to make the monthly payment. The National Homeownership Strategy: Partners in the American Dream released in 1995, had the following paragraph:
"For many potential homebuyers, the lack of cash available to accumulate the required downpayment and closing costs is the major impediment to purchasing a home. Other households do not have sufficient available income to to make the monthly payments on mortgages financed at market interest rates for standard loan terms. Financing strategies, fueled by the creativity and resources of the private and public sectors, should address both of these financial barriers to homeownership."
At the very least, there was a recognition of the need for the "creativity and resources" that would be needed in the case of households who did not have sufficient income to make the monthly payments on mortgages. What would seem to be a necessary prudent step - make sure potential homeowners have enough income to make the monthly payments, was in effect minimized as something the public and private sectors could address. And apparently they did, in their own unique way.
Not researched is how much in campaign contributions the key players for H.R. 1461 received. That would be interesting.
Democrat and Republican House members both were responsible for crafting H.R. 1461 such that it would not provide reforms that the Bush Administration felt were needed to reduce the risk of GSEs holding Mortgage Based Securities. It was roughly the same in the Senate. From what I can gather President Bush concluded that a bad bill was worse than keeping things the same. This certainly does not make excuse Bush's statements concerning minimizing the credit worthiness of potential homeowners.
How ironic, since the GOP (and you) is bending over backwards to connect Obama with the Dow. Even though that comparison looks bad for the GOP when you do the same thing with Clinton and Bush.
It's also likely this comparison will end up looking bad for the GOP when you do the comparison with Bush and Obama. If the Dow is above 6,000 on 1/20/17 (which is when Obama leaves office, assuming he wins a second term), he will have exceeded Bush's performance. Why? Because the Dow dropped 25% during Bush's term.
================
fury:
Both houses of Congress were in the hands of the GOP when 1461 died. So if there was something wrong with 1461, most of the blame for that belongs to the GOP.
================
michael:
Yes, Clinton inherited the end of the Cold War. And what Bush inherited from Clinton were record surpluses, which Bush managed to turn into record deficits. And what Obama has inherited from Bush are two unfinished wars, and the biggest financial crisis in about eighty years. If you want to include context, then try to be a little less selective about what you include.
Both houses of Congress were in the hands of the GOP when 1461 died. So if there was something wrong with 1461, most of the blame for that belongs to the GOP.
That's a reasonable statement for sure. I hope my comments did not convey that Repubs were without blame, as they have much to do with what went wrong.
No, they didn't. And I hope my further comment did not convey that you were conveying that! But sorry if it did.
Correct, so Clinton sharply cut the capital gains tax rate, and the stock market indices rose dramatically afterwards. (As explained below, I'm not claiming causation here)
During Clinton's first term, when the 28% rate was in effect, the Dow more than doubled. Which makes it hard to argue that a rate that high will kill the Dow or the economy. Especially when you notice that in Bush's first term the Dow was flat, and in his second term it dropped by 25%. Even though the rate was much lower (20% and then 15%).
Sure, and the stock market and economy were poor after George Bush I raised taxes, so raising taxes is bad. For that matter, I think the real key was when Reagan passed the flat/regressive Social Security Reform Act of 1983. After that passed, GDP increased, and so clearly the course of action we should follow is an increase in the payroll or other flat/regressive taxes.
More seriously, without having at least a multiple regression (thought those are subject to their own problems) or some other kind of statistical analysis that can separate out trends, all the Googling in the world isn't going to support any thing. Trying to claim two gross examples as "evidence" of low taxes on savings being bad is post hoc ergo propter hoc at its worst.
"Dramatically" is relative. During Clinton's first term, when the maximum capital gains tax rate was 28%, the Dow grew 111%. During Clinton's second term, when the maximum capital gains tax rate was 20%, the Dow grew 55%. During Bush's first term, when the rate was 20% and then 15%, the Dow was flat. During Bush's second term, when the rate was 15%, the Dow dropped 25%.
I'm not claiming that a 28% rate guarantees that the Dow will go up. I'm claiming that this history tends to indicate that a high capital gains tax will not necessarily wreck the Dow. Which is a helpful thing to know, since the GOP mantra seems to be that any taxes above current rates are the work of socialist devils who are scheming to end the world.
If you are sensitive about "post hoc ergo propter hoc" I hope you will direct some of that sensitivity to the many people who are claiming that the Dow is down because Obama was elected (or that he is in some way responsible for the current Dow). Even though the market started dropping over a year ago. It declined 43% in the last 15 months of Bush's term.
And to that, you respond with what everyone knows, concerning the DOW?
As to Obama, he has effectively established a sneerocracy, deflecting and refracting any coherent criticisms into the void and morass of media fuckheads and apparatchiks such as Chris Matthews, Olberman, et al., enforcers and PR types. All those links are simple images, reflecting the fact that Obama himself is an image and a facade, reflected both on the foreign policy front and the domestic front.
"But this doesn't mean that the proper solution is to get rid of regulations. The proper solution is to figure out how to make them simple and effective. That task is difficult, but it's also possible and necessary."
(a) Good luck with that.
(b) Good luck with that, for real. I think you're entirely correct here.
Wrong. I didn't respond to "that …with what everyone knows, concerning the DOW." In my response to you, which is the third part of my comment here, I said this much about the "DOW:" nothing whatsoever. My comments about the Dow were addressed to others, not you.
Why are you making things up? Oh, I forgot. It's what you do. That's a good example of something "everyone knows."
By the way, do you really think "everyone knows" that under Clinton the Dow tripled, and under Bush, it dropped 25%? I doubt it. And if it's true that "everyone knows," then the many Republicans who are in a hurry to tie the current president to the Dow are even more shameless than I thought.
Your repeated attempts at traducements aside once again, the following:
You're making things up. I didn't suggest people generally know specific figures, I did suggest people generally know of the surpluses that resulted during Clinton's eight years and the rise in the Dow. That is what I alluded to.
Which is why I briefly listed the factors, the general context, I did: that Clinton's entire presidency took place immediately after the end of the Cold War and immediately before 9/11 and further, that that fact serves to invoke an entire set of reality-based contexts that additionally serve to rebuff any purely abstracted analyses.
Really? Let's review. You said this:
I responded to you as follows:
And then you said this:
In other words, you claimed that I responded to you by saying something about the Dow. Trouble is, my response to you said this much about the Dow: nothing whatsoever. You simply made that up. Because making things up is what you do.
And you just did some more of that. You just said this:
Instead of taking responsibility for misstating what I said, you're now trying to cover your tracks by misstating what you said. You did not "suggest people generally know of the surpluses that resulted during Clinton's eight years." Your statement about what "everyone knows" made no reference to "the surpluses that resulted during Clinton's eight years." It only made reference to "the DOW."
So after pretending that I said something I didn't say, you're now pretending that you said something you didn't say. Keep up the good work!
What's especially important about this is not whether or not I mentioned the Dow (in my response to you). What's especially important about this is your failure to pay attention to what's actually been said, not just by others but even by you. And what's even more important than your failure to pay attention is your failure to take responsibility when it's pointed out that you've been failing to pay attention.
Wrong - entirely (and trivially, btw) wrong. You're attaching meaning to what was said in a manner that was never intended. You're own failure thus is hi-lighted in the fact of your nosepick presumption and insouciance.
Thanks for the continued laughs and bemusement though, a jukebox_sneer staple.
What an obstreperous solipsist and clown.
I'm not "attaching meaning to what was said." I'm simply paying attention to "what was said." And if there's a gap between what you intended and what you said, then it's up to you to take responsibility for that gap. Maybe someday you will. Maybe it will be the same day you address your chronic problem with making false statements.
But in the meantime, what you said (about what I said and about what you said) is false. Gratuitous insults and a grandiose vocabulary do not hide this, but they do a nice job of reminding us that you have nothing else to work with.
If what you intended and what you said are not the same thing, then that's not my "failure." It's yours.
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