Against Mandatory "Visits":

Legal academia has a somewhat strange institution known as the “look-see visit.” A professor is invited to a host school for a semester or two with the promise that if he sufficiently impresses the faculty, he will be offered a “lateral” position.

This institution of visits has its virtues: it not only allows the host school to “check out” the visitor, but allows the visitor the opportunity to discern whether he would likely be happier at the host school than at his current position.

For those reasons, visits can be a mutually beneficial endeavor. However, many law schools require that all lateral candidates "visit" before they can be considered for a lateral position, and this has significant downsides:

(1) In practice, it has a significant disparate and discriminatory impact on women. Some visitors spend three or four days a week at the host school, and then fly home for long weekends. Others pack up the family for the semester or the year. (And some just leave their family almost entirely for a semester or two.) Men are far more likely to be willing and able to do this than are women, because men (a) tend to be less intensively involved in child care, and (b) their spouses are more likely to be movable for the short-term. (Anecdotally, women professors are relatively more likely to be married to high-powered lawyers, doctors, or other professionals than are men professors.) I know of one women professor who received quite a few impressive visiting offers over the course of a few years--but she had several small children, and her husband was on the partnership track at a major law firm. Exactly how was she supposed to “visit”? Yet, none of these schools would consider her without a visit.

(2) The requirement of a visit reflects, more generally, a devaluation of family life. Even if a professor could leave his spouse and kids for three for four days a week, or the entire semester or year, or move them and disrupt their schooling and social ties for a semester or two, in favor of a career opportunity, should he be asked to?

These strong disadvantages could perhaps be justified if visits were truly invaluable to the host school in making employment decisions. But that is highly doubtful for several reasons:

(1) In other academic fields, faculties manage to make hiring decisions without requiring visits. Indeed, even within legal academia, many law schools make the bulk (or all) of their lateral hires without requiring, or even asking for, visits.

(2) In my anecdotal experience, many law schools that claim to require visits for lateral candidates only truly require visits for candidates who are coming from schools significantly lower down the food chain. If, however, top 20 school has a chance to land a scholar from top 10 school, or even from a similarly ranked school, a scholarly presentation and a day or two of interviews suffices in practice. This makes the mandatory visit seem less like an academic prerequisite for hiring laterals, and more like a hazing ritual imposed by the higher-ranking schools on their "lessers".

(3) Relatedly, judging from conversations with friends who have had look-see visits at a range of top 20 schools, the faculty of the host schools rarely make much of an effort to get to know the look-see visitor. For example, one friend tells me that only two professors actually spoke to her all semester during her visit. Another relates that he didn't know 3 of the 5 members of the appointments committee, and none of those three made any effort to get to know him during his two-semester visit. I've heard quite a few stories along these lines, but no stories that tend in the opposite direction. If the faculty, including the appointments committee, is going to judge a lateral candidate solely on the basis of his or her c.v. and a presentation anyway, as generally seems to be the case, why require the visit to begin with?

Finally, one anomaly of look-see visits is that they are usually arranged by year 1’s appointments committee, but the visitor doesn’t arrive until year 2, when the composition of the committee may have changed significantly, or even entirely. The committee, for example, may have gone from one committed to bringing in a critical race theorist to one devoted to hiring only law and economic ph.d.s. And thus the poor visitor, enticed by the previous year’s committee's blandishments, finds that the current committee just wishes he would go away. (Some law schools are trying to avoid this problem by having the entire faculty vote to invite a look-see visitor.) By contrast, if a lateral candidate is invited to do a presentation and one or two days of interviews, the same appointments committee that invited him will be deciding whether to forward his candidacy to the full faculty.

So, again, I have nothing against visits, look-see or otherwise, and I've enjoyed the three that I've done, and would do them again (but not now, when I have two small children). But I don't see any good reason why look-see visits should be mandatory for lateral candidates.

UPDATE: I forgot to mention that some law schools not only insist on look-see visits, but refuse to consider the candidate's candidacy until after he has gone back to his home institution. So, it's not uncommon for a school to ask a candidate to uproot his life to visit, reroot his life at his home institution, and only then learn whether he's going to be asked to uproot his life again to join the institution he visited.

anomdebus (mail):
Not to disagree with you, but if you can't visit the workplace without disrupting your family and your spouse is not very movable, wouldn't that preclude being able to work there as a regular employee? (see your example in your 'In practice' paragraph)
1.30.2009 6:55pm
hawkins:
Are all visiting professors on a try out of sorts? Is that the entire purpose?
1.30.2009 6:56pm
Hoosier:
This is not required in other fields, of course. But a number of universities have visiting faculty who are essentially brought in for the same purpose. Some even have "institutes" which award "fellowship" for this purpose, although no one comes out and admits this.

This can also have advantages in disciplines besides law. But the sense I had at my (amazingly over-rated) alma mater was that this should never have been done. Bring a scholar in from, say, Philadelphia, and have them spend a year in South Bend, Indiana? Wow.

My suggestion, if they would listen: Make an offer after the conference interview. Don't ever let them visit before they've signed the contract.
1.30.2009 6:56pm
Hadur:
In my experience as a student at an extremely fancy-pants law school, the visiting professors typically gave the most interesting and engaging lectures and displayed the most amount of care for individual students. This is almost certainly because they are in "impress everyone" mode.

Whatever the harm to the faculty class, the visiting faculty system seems to greatly benefit students.
1.30.2009 7:07pm
A reader (mail):

Not to disagree with you, but if you can't visit the workplace without disrupting your family and your spouse is not very movable, wouldn't that preclude being able to work there as a regular employee? (see your example in your 'In practice' paragraph)


Not necessarily. Being willing and able to move permanently is often different than being willing and able to uproot your life for a semester or a year with no guarantee that you'll be in the new location permanently at the end of the period. For the spouse, it's the difference between finding a new job and taking a leave of absence from one job and then finding a temporary job or forgoing income and for the kids it's the difference between changing schools and switching schools potentially twice in one school year.
1.30.2009 7:18pm
CDU (mail) (www):
Not to disagree with you, but if you can't visit the workplace without disrupting your family and your spouse is not very movable, wouldn't that preclude being able to work there as a regular employee?


There's a big difference between asking your spouse to find two new jobs (one near the visiting school and perhaps one more back near the original school if it doesn't work out) for a possibility of helping your career, and asking them to find a new job once, when it will definitely benefit your career.
1.30.2009 7:21pm
vc_site:
Law schools haze law students, so why wouldn't they haze wanna be law professors who want to work with their "betters"?

BTW, I agree with the significant downsides for law school visits, and I am not surprised by the reasons given for the visits being unlikely to be truly valuable to the host school in making employment decisions.
1.30.2009 7:26pm
Specast:
Ditto to what Hadur said: my experience is that visiting professors bring their A game in a way that tenured preofessors sometimes do not. Seems to me that this, combined with being able to "test drive" a prof before hiring, makes requiring a look-see visit a no-brainer for the universities.

Maybe law professors need a union.
1.30.2009 7:33pm
commontheme (mail):
If an employer wants to require mandatory visits, so be it.

That's the way the free market is supposed to work.
1.30.2009 7:53pm
Raționalitate (www):
That's the way the free market is supposed to work.

Free market? In universities?? Ha, that's a good one! Do away with the state funding, the state-mandated credentialism, the tax breaks, and the grants, and then we'll talk about how the free market is supposed to work.
1.30.2009 8:01pm
John (mail):
This is a hopelessly sexist post.

Women can desert their families just as easily as men.

Unless, that is, you believe that somehow a family must have a woman around but needn't have a man.
1.30.2009 8:05pm
Raționalitate (www):
Unless, that is, you believe that somehow a family must have a woman around but needn't have a man.

It isn't about what a family "must" have, it's about what a family does have.
1.30.2009 8:24pm
AMichiganWolverine:
I find the visiting faculty to not be nearly as good as the permanent or adjuncts.
1.30.2009 8:24pm
anomdebus (mail):
I was speaking closer to the specific example and not a general example. I emphasized "not very movable", not mentioned in the post, to talk about a subset of those affected.
I would think the example of a partnership track lawyer would be very resistent to moving as it doesn't seem likely that leaving before making partner would help him elsewhere. If he had made partner, that itself might limit where he can go, though he would probably have more leeway (note: this is speculative future in the context of the problem stated).
1.30.2009 8:41pm
JB:
If an employer wants to require mandatory visits, so be it.

That's the way the free market is supposed to work.


The free market works better the more information is out there. Should more lawprof candidates realize the nature of this system, there's a better chance of reaching a more socially optimal solution. Notice that Bernstein is not advocating a ban on these, just pointing out their flaws.
1.30.2009 9:10pm
frankcross (mail):
All true, but the value of the visits, I would think, is for the visitor. I think a rational person would want to examine a situation closely before uprooting and taking a new job.
1.30.2009 9:33pm
Donna B. (mail) (www):
I remember my daughter's complaints about a visiting prof and the subsequent organization of the students in her (3L) class that resulted in all of them sending individual letters stating that hiring this prof would harm the school and its graduates.

Perhaps those who are asked to visit are borderline in some way or another.
1.30.2009 10:29pm
sdfsdf (mail):
The post is correct in its points. Since this is indeed a free market, why, then, do law schools continue to require visits except from high-ranked-school applicants? I've talked with several law schools about moving jobs to there, but dropped it a couple of those times because I wouldn't be willing to do a try-out semester. It seems to me that a law school which was willing to make a straightforward offer would have a competitive advantage. So why doesn't it happe more?

We at Indiana are on the lateral market this year. I wonder if we require a visit? I'll have to refer Prof. Dau-Schmidt to this webpage.
1.30.2009 10:29pm
gasman (mail):

In practice, it has a significant disparate and discriminatory impact on women.

I think you are confusing discriminatory with differing impact. The schools likely have no interest in unfairly burdening women, and likely do have reasons to lower barriers in general (to obtain a more balanced or diverse workforce for whatever reason that might be desirable).
But if anyone has made discriminatory choices it is perhaps then the very women you cite who have done those things listed: value family/child time, or marry spouses with high power and low mobility careers.
People are free to make many choices in their lives. But that does not mean that they are free from the consequences of those choices. If career women wish to equal their male counterparts then they need to start marrying down and getting husbands who are on the daddy-track rather than partnership track.
1.30.2009 10:49pm
Ex parte McCardle:
As Hoosier said earlier, there are some other departments, at least at certain institutions, that operate this way. I did a Ph.D. at Yale in the Department of Music, and this is the way the Yale Music department hires senior faculty. It's especially significant at Yale, since junior faculty are generally not considered for tenure or promotion to senior rank. Without requiring the visit, senior faculty the Yale department chooses to hire would be brought on board without any first-hand sense of their collegiality, teaching skills, etc.
1.30.2009 11:11pm
TruePath (mail) (www):
I generally support increased flexibility in the workplace for personal preferences/lifestyle so I agree that when unnecessary these visits shouldn't be required. However, I only accept this in the same sense that I believe that schools ought to make accommodations for those of us who have s.o.'s in different states (e.g. TTh teaching assignments or some other mechanism for freeing long weekends). Hell, academic institutions should even try to accommodate faculty who really really don't like waking up in the mornings (the same way they might accommodate people who have child care duties in the morning).

What bothers me about this post is the implicit notion that somehow child care warrants special treatment that other life choices don't and the explicit claim that the choice women make with their spouses to have the greater share of child care responsibilities somehow means that it's discrimination not to cater to these choices.

I mean ultimately raising children is a choice you make because you prefer that lifestyle. Sure it takes a lot of time and work but it's time and work you choose to undertake. If I choose not to have children why should I have to pick up the slack so you can pursue what you want to do in your private life. It might be subtle but indeed I'm subsidizing your personal pursuits with every dollar the university donates to fund child care (one less for facilities/pay) and with every preferential treatment not given to the rest of us. For instance in graduate school having child care obligations was considered a valid excuse for being unable to teach in the morning but living far away and not liking waking up late wasn't. That meant that people like me (who choose not to have kids partially so I don't have to deal with crap in the morning) endure a greater share of the morning teaching slots to subsidize your private life.

What really pisses me off though is that universities subsidize faculty child care but won't subsidize my trips to visit my wife (she's still in grad school).

Don't get me wrong, it should be possible to raise a family and work as a professor or take most other jobs. However, it should be general flexibility to tolerate any choice in lifestyle not a blatant demand that those of us in the minority subsidize your lifestyle choices. If you want more flexibility in hours or travel or whatever then fine but it should be open to anyone for any reason, maybe at the cost of taking on extra unpleasant duties.

---

As for the discrimination issue it's just not a valid argument. I mean if men are statistically more likely to miss morning meetings because of hangovers do you need to offer 'hangover excuses' or eliminate morning meetings do be non-discriminatory? Of course not!

Now true, far more women have child care responsibilities than do men. Yet statistically women are far more likely to desire children then men so it's at least possible that women might find child care more rewarding than do men. Do you even know whether the trade off women (statistically) make favoring reproduction and child care over career is a net positive or negative in terms of utility?
1.30.2009 11:35pm
Allan L. (mail):
I suggest the "visit" be re-characterized as a "sabbatical". Problem solved.
1.31.2009 12:02am
TruePath (mail) (www):

I know of one women professor who received quite a few impressive visiting offers over the course of a few years--but she had several small children, and her husband was on the partnership track at a major law firm. Exactly how was she supposed to “visit”? Yet, none of these schools would consider her without a visit.


And suppose my wife does research in the amazon rainforest during the summer so I spend every summer with her out of contact with any phone or other means of communication. I suspect not being able to reply to inquires or otherwise interact over the summer would bar me from many positions my summer dwelling wouldn't interfere with. Is that similarly unfair?

Life involves choices and we make these choices in light of the tradeoffs they involve. Children and spousal careers are no different in this matter. We should strive to eliminate all unnecessary tradeoffs but there is no reason to treat childcare any differently than any other choice or obligation people choose to undertake in their free time.

Alright, I'll stop repeating myself here but as someone who has chosen not to have children (but is trying to manage a long distance marriage) it really gets to me when people seem to be assuming that their lifestyle choice should be given given special benefits that they would deny me.
1.31.2009 12:06am
tired of blogs:
TruePath -- There's a long term payoff for you for your apparently considerable suffering at the hands of those with children: our kids will be paying for your benefits and healthcare in retirement, whereas you are contributing nothing to ours.

Also: I'm very sympathetic with your notion that people in long-distance marriages ought to receive consideration in course scheduling, and that others' child-related needs shouldn't necessarily trump that. In my scheduling experience, though, people with kids are generally happy to teach on Mondays and Fridays because they have to be in town for their kids to attend school anyway.

Some of your other comparisions seem a bit silly, too: hardly anybody likes waking up in the morning (including parents), but parents have less of a choice about it than most (young kids wake up when sunlight comes through the windows, whether that's at 8am or 6am) and, moreover, have a legal responsibility to get their kids to school at a certain time. In an occupation where we have the rare luxury of being flexible about our work schedules, it seems unsporting to equate that with a hangover or wanting to sleep in.
1.31.2009 2:10am
Randy R. (mail):
"Unless, that is, you believe that somehow a family must have a woman around but needn't have a man.

It isn't about what a family "must" have, it's about what a family does have."

Ahem -- please don't forget that not all families consist of husband and wife. Some are husband and husband, or wife and wife. I guess this is a good argument for gay marriage!
1.31.2009 2:15am
Cornellian (mail):
Anecdotally, women professors are relatively more likely to be married to high-powered lawyers, doctors, or other professionals than are men professors.

I'm guessing the earnings of said high-powered lawyer or doctor more than make up for the decreased mobility.
1.31.2009 2:28am
Bill Poser (mail) (www):
The one virtue that I can see to having potential hires visit first, if the faculty aren't going to interact with them, is that it does provide information about their teaching that probably isn't available from another school.
1.31.2009 2:52am
Kyle K. (mail) (www):
Just one more example of how law schools are out of step with the rest of academia. As the husband of a woman who's bound and determined to receive a tenure-track faculty position (in the hard sciences), I'm saddened that law requires this "visiting" status. Shouldn't "job talks" (or the law equivalent thereof) be sufficient?
1.31.2009 2:59am
Tatil:

The schools likely have no interest in unfairly burdening women

Maybe, but if the traditions are set by the males who used to be in charge and who were not sensitive towards such different impacts or who were not aware of them, it is the only rational to analyze them to see whether they still serve a purpose or whether their advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
1.31.2009 3:33am
Tatil:

our kids will be paying for your benefits and healthcare in retirement, whereas you are contributing nothing to ours.

Considering considerable portion of his taxes is going towards their education or subsidize SCHIP type programs for kids, it is only fair that they might contribute to his retirement benefits later. :)
1.31.2009 3:37am
wb (mail):
As Hoosier noted,"This is not required in other fields, of course. But a number of universities have visiting faculty who are essentially brought in for the same purpose."

Our department very rarely will make a direct hire of a tenured faculty. Our experience has been that an offer from us to another top 5 department generates a substantial counteroffer, and in the end we expend a great deal of effort and miss other opportunities, and seldom get the target senior faculty. The typical solution is to expect the senior person to spend a year on a visiting appointment, (I guarantee that there is lots of interaction), and to make an offer if there is a good fit and very solid intent to move to join us.

The upshot is that junior faculty have a far higher probability of gaining tenure than they do at the other top five departments. We like this result.
1.31.2009 7:29am
Eli Rabett (www):
Congratulations. Eli takes it that you or your wife or both have been offered visiting positions at high ranking places.

OTOH, as Jimmy Carter once said life is not fair.
1.31.2009 8:32am
Hoosier:
wb

That's been my experience as well: If a potential "opportunity hire" is currently employed at U of X, and we want to bring him to U of Y, what happens? More often than not, he uses our offer to get a significant raise, a course reduction, an endowed chair, or all three from U of X.

We have thus wasted a year of committee time on him, and yet, if we want someone in that field, we will still have to run another search. So at least two years to fill a line.

And yet we keep doing it. As do other universities.

My suggestion has been ignored by the admin, because they're stupid. I say that we offer "look-see conjugal visits." This would make U of Y seem a whole lot more attractive than X. I mean, do you know any senior research U faculty that don't need what we'd be offering?
1.31.2009 8:47am
Joseph Slater (mail):
I'll take this opportunity to say I think David Berstein is absolutely right in his post.
1.31.2009 11:49am
catullus:
Requiring visitors to return to their home institution before voting on whether to offer them a lateral position is utterly asinine. The only rationales I can see for this practice are (1)to ensure that the faculty judgment on hiring is not clouded by close association, and (2)to avoid the embarrassment that comes from confronting the rejected visitor. However, tenure decisions involve these same problems and faculties have no problem making those decisions.
1.31.2009 1:30pm
randal (mail):
I've gotta agree with John - this post is sexist, not the policy. The policy is not remotely "discriminatory". There is no reason for policy to cater to decisions that individuals may freely make, especially when the sexes are easily free to make them. The fact that statistically, men and women tend to make slightly different choices doesn't make a policy discriminatory.

Is extending the hours of on-campus food service discriminatory, on the theory that men will take more advantage of it than women, even though both groups end up paying for the service?
1.31.2009 11:37pm

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