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RoboCalls:
I received this one from the McCain campaign last night. Ugh, painful to listen to. But hey, on the bright side, at least I didn't have to go to the post office this time.
huskerfan:
So, is McCain still honorable if he uses the same tactic that sunk his 2000 campaign and the same tactic he repudiated?
10.17.2008 12:40pm
Justin (mail):
John McCain can't be responsible for any offhand remark made by any of his patriotic supporters.
10.17.2008 12:40pm
Joe Kowalski (mail):

John McCain can't be responsible for any offhand remark made by any of his patriotic supporters.


If you read the TPM article, you'll find that the robocall is specifically sponsored and approved by the McCain Campaign &the RNC:

The call concludes by saying it was "paid for by McCain-Palin 2008 and the Republican National Committee."

What gets me is that McCain's best excuse for this is that Obama "forced" him to go down this road because he wouldn't do the 10 joint townhalls this summer. Right.
10.17.2008 12:54pm
Thales (mail) (www):
The interesting thing will be if Obama pulls it off despite this kind of slimy campaigning (as looks very likely)--maybe it will be the end of Rovian tactics and the emergence of a more enlightened GOP?

I mean, I support Obama wholeheartedly, but I'm an independent and could write very good copy for the McCain campaign, and I would even believe a lot of it--why are they taking this route? It (along with the nomination of Palin) seems self-destructive.
10.17.2008 12:54pm
Passerby:
If Obama would have just agreed to do more town hall style debates, McCain would not have to run 100% negative ads and deceptive robocalls.

This is clearly all Obama's fault.
10.17.2008 12:54pm
EH (mail):
What gets me is that McCain's best excuse for this is that Obama "forced" him to go down this road...

Ironically this demonstrates another facet of leadership of Obama: even McCain follows his orders!
10.17.2008 1:10pm
Steve:
All of my McCain-supporting friends are positively embarrassed that he keeps using that line about the town halls. I always tell them, not to rub it in, "that's the party of personal responsibility for ya." If only my opponent hadn't forced me to run all these negative ads!
10.17.2008 1:10pm
MarkField (mail):
Thankfully, McCain has repudiated every single Republican attack which has been out of line.
10.17.2008 1:11pm
EH (mail):
Thales: I hope so. That Obama doesn't engage the bullying tactics of the GOP has been one of the real innovations in his campaign. McCain's participation in the Rove machine will go down as one of the more humiliating transformations in modern times, though not quite on par with O.J.
10.17.2008 1:16pm
_quodlibet_:
Whenever I need to give out a phone number to a political organization, I always give out my VoIP number, so any calls go straight to voicemail.
10.17.2008 1:20pm
MarkField (mail):
Random point, but it's as relevant here as anywhere. The Supreme Court has reversed the 6th Circuit's order regarding the OH voter rolls. Per Curiam Order here.
10.17.2008 1:22pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Just a short time ago McCain was the Democrat's favorite Republican because basically McCain is one of them. He has thrown a few bones to his tattered conservative base on abortion and taxes, but in the main, he agrees with fundamental Democrat dogmas. This is one reason why McCain has been so palsied in his responses to Obama. How can he play the immigration issue when he agrees with Democrats on the need for amnesty? He is a multiculturalist through and through. Moreover, he clearly believes in an expansive government. He clearly believes in fiat money. How can anyone think McCain is anything but a liberal? Why would anyone want to vote for an ersatz liberal when they can have the real thing?
10.17.2008 1:22pm
PC:
This is a bit frightening. When did robots become intelligent enough to start calling people? Are they going to be doing canvassing next?
10.17.2008 1:24pm
Norman Bates (mail):
So the ad says that:

(1) Obama worked closely with Bill Ayers which is not only true but an understatement since Ayers helped start Obama's political career, worked directly with Obama on the steering committee of a large foundation, and helped secure Obama some other powerful and lucrative foundation positions. Obama also socialized on at least several known occassions with Ayers and his terrorist wife, Bernadine Dorn, who once graced top billing on the FBI's ten most wanted list.

(2) that Ayers was a terrorist which is not only true but an understatement since Ayers has never expressed any regret for the actions of his youth but is on record as regretting he did not do more. Ayers is also on record as expressing sympathy with the 9/11 terrorists. Obama had to know all this during his long and close association with Ayers.

(3) that Ayers terrorist activities resulted in the murder of Americans which is not only true but an understatement since Ayers's group specifically targeted police and the military. There is hard evidence linking Ayers directly to these murders. Unfortunately it was not admissible as evidence in a criminal trial so Ayers and Dorn walked.

It is true that Ayers was the scion of a very wealthy and indulgent father who bought his son a place in Chicago society but this hardly negates any of the above charges.

So I am curious why anyone would be outraged by a political ad that contains no untruths and paints a picture of a man who will associate with any type of low life to advance his political ambitions.

The only aspect of this ad that bothers me is its annoying intrusion into citizens' homes via unsolicited phone calls. I gather this was Professor Kerr's main complaint but most posters up to now seem to have missed this.
10.17.2008 1:24pm
A Law Dawg:
The interesting thing will be if Obama pulls it off despite this kind of slimy campaigning (as looks very likely)--maybe it will be the end of Rovian tactics and the emergence of a more enlightened GOP?


No. The lesson that will be learned (whether it is correct or not) is that McCain should never, ever, have declared Jeremiah Wright off the table.
10.17.2008 1:25pm
Justin (mail):
Joe K.,

You either missed the last debate or missed the joke.
10.17.2008 1:29pm
EH (mail):
Dawg: I'd say there's a good chance that the Law of Unintended Consequences may teach the Democratic Party (or all parties) not to nominate someone with a Wright or a Liddy in their past.
10.17.2008 1:31pm
Oren:
Mark, thanks for the link -- seems the SCOTUS takes standing much more seriously than the 6CA.
10.17.2008 1:42pm
Joe Kowalski (mail):
Justin: Thanks, it's amazing the additional insight that a little extra coffee will provide..;)
10.17.2008 1:46pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
bates:

a man who will associate with any type of low life


I guess you were thinking of this:

what does it say about McCain's character that he pals around with an unrepentant convicted felon who's talked openly about killing federal officials?
10.17.2008 1:48pm
Observer:
Jukeboxgrad: Do you not see a difference between talking about killed people and actually killing people?

Aside from this, everything illegal that Ayers did, he did out of hatred for America; everything illegal that Liddy did, he did out of his love for America. Is this a comparison you really want to make?
10.17.2008 1:59pm
Fub:
I received this one from the McCain campaign last night. Ugh, painful to listen to.
I feel so left out. The robocall I got yesterday claimed to be from the federal government. It said they'd help with my mortgage if I would just press "1". I figured maybe something was wrong, since I payed off my mortgage years ago. So I pressed "1" to tell them I thought they'd made a mistake.

The guy that answered said they wanted my bank account information so they could help with my mortgage. I told him I didn't need their help, but maybe they could send the carpet cleaners they called about yesterday. He got all pissed off and hung up.

But I don't expect the government stop these robocall phishing operations no matter who is elected. They never have yet. There's no reasonable excuse for that, since the call originators are trivial to track down if you have a phone line which gets incoming billing and routing data. Makes me wonder who is getting paid off.
10.17.2008 2:04pm
Sarcastro (www):
Observer yup! Ayers totally wanted to kill everyone in America but making us pull out of Vietnam! Not like that Libby guy who wanted us to go into in Iraq! Going in is the opposite of pulling out and doesn't kill hardly anybody!

And I see no problems at all with over the top claims about Obama. I think they're all true cause I read about how they were conclusively proven by somje guy on the internet! This ad is just what McCain needs to win like the straight-shooting champion he is!

Policy debates are for suckers!
10.17.2008 2:08pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
jukeboxgrad:

Of course McCain pals around with low life. Let's remember he's a RHIO. He shares most all the same dogmas as the Democrats as well as some of their obnoxious habits. Let's remember that a short time ago McCain was the Democrat's favorite Republican. He will be back in their good graces after he loses.
10.17.2008 2:09pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Whoops make that RHINO.
10.17.2008 2:10pm
Sarcastro (www):
I like A. Zarkov's new argument. McCain's going to lose, but he's not on our side to this election really doesn't count!

Do-over in 2012 - Joe/Palin! The True Conservatives America deserves!
10.17.2008 2:14pm
Adam J:
Observer- Ah... so trying to illegally kill people out of love for America is good, while trying to illegally kill people out of hatred for America is evil. That's the stupidest distinction I've ever heard. If you want to see just what kind of patriot Liddy really is, I suggest looking at the interview he gave here.
10.17.2008 2:15pm
Thales (mail) (www):
"[E]verything illegal that Liddy did, he did out of his love for America. Is this a comparison you really want to make?"

Yes, breaking into the opposing party's headquarters in order to subvert the democratic process, and engaging in various crimes to prevent true information from leaking from the White House was clearly done out of love for America. No doubt Timothy McVeigh would make the same claim for his despicable acts.

Why don't we just hold people responsible for their own actions and allow them to associate in some capacity with people with whom they disagree or whom have done bad things in the past--why is that scary or threatening?
10.17.2008 2:15pm
A Law Dawg:
Why don't we just hold people responsible for their own actions and allow them to associate in some capacity with people with whom they disagree or whom have done bad things in the past--why is that scary or threatening?


Because many believe that "Birds of a feather flock together" has merit.
10.17.2008 2:23pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Sarcastro:

Are you asserting that McCain is conservative? If so tell how, and provide a metric that shows he's closer to the Republicans than the Democrats? Let's remember Democrats got to vote in some (or all) the Republican primaries. To what extent this fashioned McCain's victory for the nomination remains to be worked out. At this point I advance it as a hypothesis.
10.17.2008 2:23pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Sarcastro:

BTW, there's noting "new" about my argument. I've said that all along. I'm also an independent, not a Republican.
10.17.2008 2:25pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Defending Liddy is a losing proposition. If you don't like Ayers, you shouldn't like Liddy either. Of course Ayers could have killed me or other innocent people, whereas Liddy's targets were his political opposition. Nevertheless violence is not justified.
10.17.2008 2:28pm
Sarcastro (www):
A. Zarkov Deregulation, muscular foreign policy, tax-cuts that trickle down, pro-life, pro-gun. Sounds like a socialist to me!
10.17.2008 2:29pm
A Law Dawg:
Let's remember Democrats got to vote in some (or all) the Republican primaries. To what extent this fashioned McCain's victory for the nomination remains to be worked out. At this point I advance it as a hypothesis.


You believe this even though Iowa and NH had their Dem and GOP primaries simultaneously, and Florida was a closed primary?

The race was over for McCain after Florida, and it was definitely over after California went for McCain on Super Tuesday. CA's primary was closed as well.

Sorry, the notion that "Democrats poisoned us with McCain" just does not hold up.
10.17.2008 2:31pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Sarcastro:

With the exception of the war, those positions were adopted for the campaign to throw a bone to the conservative base.
10.17.2008 2:40pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
"Sorry, the notion that "Democrats poisoned us with McCain" just does not hold up."

I think you need more analysis to make that conclusion. You might be right, but you haven't proved it.
10.17.2008 2:42pm
Sarcastro (www):
[A. Zarkov hmmm.

I know he voted for the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, but checking out his voting record, he doesn't seem to be the tax-cut hawk I took him for from his speeches. And he voted for Sarbanes Oxley, though took that back in 2007.

Socially, he seems pretty doctrinaire when it comes to God and Gays, though not Guns, Global warming or Illegal Immigration.

Guess you were right. Still, he is the more conservative candidate, and lord does he have the base behind him after Palin. I therefore see his current electoral status as a repudiation of current conservative policies.]
10.17.2008 2:51pm
A Law Dawg:
I think you need more analysis to make that conclusion. You might be right, but you haven't proved it.


My evidence refutes your only stated reason for thinking that Democrats elected McCain to be the GOP nominee, so what's your proof?
10.17.2008 2:55pm
Mahan Atma (mail):
McCain's position on abortion pretty clearly puts him on the conservative side. He's not a doctrinaire conservative, but he is conservative. It is accurate that he voted with Bush 95% of the time.

Oh wait, I forgot - Bush isn't a conservative either...
10.17.2008 3:06pm
A guest:

Of course Ayers could have killed me or other innocent people, whereas Liddy's targets were his political opposition. Nevertheless violence is not justified.



Your larger point is fine, but wouldn't you say political opponents are still innocent people?
10.17.2008 3:12pm
Syd Henderson (mail):
So the new McCain strategy is to piss people off with robocalls>
10.17.2008 3:28pm
Dan M.:
Wow, I never realized Liddy was that crazy. Still, he's a shock jock whose worst crime is burglary. And maybe conspiracy to commit murder. I'm certainly not a fan of his glee over the War on Drugs, or his 'kill 'em all' attitude about war which totally ignores political implications. I'm not really concerned about his statements about federal agents, though. I can't say I have a lot of love for the ATF or for cops who conduct no-knock raids on the wrong address, kick in people's doors, wave guns around, terrorize children and murder pets. No love lost.

I'm less concerned that Bill Ayers was a terrorist than I am that he's a radical Communist with a radical education agenda that Barack Obama has helped foster. But Bill Ayers' Commie bullshit is popular around the country. My wife is taking an Curriculum class to get her counseling degree and it's the biggest load of the type of Commie bullshit that Ayers pushes. There's no way I am comfortable with someone as president who has directed money to further those causes.
10.17.2008 3:38pm
PC:
Your larger point is fine, but wouldn't you say political opponents are still innocent people?

Not if they are Democrats.
10.17.2008 4:13pm
Anderson (mail):
everything illegal that Liddy did, he did out of his love for America

Thanks, now I have to clean up the puke from my keyboard.

"Everything illegal that _____ did, he did out of love for ______." Patriotism covereth a multitude of sins?

Liddy was a thug, and countries whose rulers get away with using such thugs, do not remain democracies for long. I don't forgive Hitler's thugs for their patriotism -- why should I forgive Nixon's for theirs?
10.17.2008 4:25pm
Sarcastro (www):

Everything illegal that Lucifer did, he did out of love for Humanity.



This is a pretty cool game you made there Anderson!
10.17.2008 4:27pm
Anderson (mail):
Whoops make that RHINO.

"Whore" has a silent "W," Mr. Zarkov.
10.17.2008 4:33pm
PC:
I don't forgive Hitler's thugs for their patriotism -- why should I forgive Nixon's for theirs?

That is a completely unfair comparison. Nixon wasn't Hitler, Obama is.
10.17.2008 4:34pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
"Your larger point is fine, but wouldn't you say political opponents are still innocent people?"

Absolutely. But I have to say that planting a bomb somewhere is really reprehensible because it does indiscriminate damage. As far as I know Liddy did nothing like that.
While he did target innocent people, he didn't do it in an indiscriminate way. If Liddy had planted a bomb someplace that would put him in the same class as Ayers.
10.17.2008 4:50pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
bates:

There is hard evidence linking Ayers directly to these murders


McDonnell's death is an unsolved crime. No one was ever arrested. What "hard evidence?" And why are you using plural? Are you counting Oughton, Gold, and Robbins? Those weren't "murders."

Ayers has never expressed any regret for the actions of his youth


Yet another extremely durable meme that's not quite true. The claims about "unrepentant" are based on somewhat shaky evidence. The typical reference is a NYT interview Ayers did, but he says those statements are being taken out of context. And no one seems to recall that he also said this:

'We did go off track … and that was wrong,' Ayers now says.
10.17.2008 5:38pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
observer:

Do you not see a difference between talking about killed people and actually killing people?


You're accusing Ayers of "actually killing people." Names, please.

everything illegal that Ayers did, he did out of hatred for America; everything illegal that Liddy did, he did out of his love for America


I wonder if you're really unable to see how subjective and self-serving your statement is.
10.17.2008 5:38pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
dawg:

many believe that "Birds of a feather flock together" has merit


I wonder if that also applies to the "birds" who celebrate the man who said this:

The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government. ... And I won't be buried under their damn flag.
10.17.2008 5:38pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
zarkov:

Let's remember Democrats got to vote in some (or all) the Republican primaries. To what extent this fashioned McCain's victory for the nomination remains to be worked out.


I think that's a fair question. And although it doesn't matter much now, I think it's worth mentioning the corresponding point: Rush's 'Operation Chaos,' and the way it arguably did some damage to Obama, and maybe almost cost him the nomination.

I have to say that planting a bomb somewhere is really reprehensible because it does indiscriminate damage.


The idea of "indiscriminate" is somewhat subjective. I think it's worth knowing this:

The bombing attacks were mostly against government buildings, along with several banks. Most were preceded by communiqués that provided evacuation warnings
10.17.2008 5:39pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
mahan:

Oh wait, I forgot - Bush isn't a conservative either...


The inaptly named 'conservatives' are indeed having a very profound identity crisis, and they need a long break to figure things out. So it's really good for them and everyone else that they're going to get one.
10.17.2008 5:39pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
pc:

Nixon wasn't Hitler, Obama is.


It's just another sign of how erratic the McCain campaign is. They can't figure out if Obama is Hitler or Osama.
10.17.2008 5:39pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
jukeboxgrad:

"The bombing attacks were mostly against government buildings, along with several banks. Most were preceded by communiqués that provided evacuation warnings..."

Note the use of the weasel word "mostly." That means some might not been warned. Putting a bomb almost anywhere the public can access makes it indiscriminate. Even in non-public places still has the potential for indiscriminate harm. In this context the meaning of "indiscriminate" is hardly subject.

Why are you trying to make excuses for the Weathermen?
10.17.2008 5:55pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Sarcastro:

"Still, he is the more conservative candidate,..."


Of course he is, but almost anyone is more conservative in Senate compared to Obama.

"I therefore see his current electoral status as a repudiation of current conservative policies."

The voters are certainly rejecting Bush. But I think they are rejecting Bush's policies, not all of which are conservative. They don't like his expansion of government, or immigration policies, or runaway spending.
10.17.2008 6:14pm
Pat C (mail):

pc

It's just another sign of how erratic the McCain campaign is. They can't figure out if Obama is Hitler or Osama.



Wait a minute, I thought Obama was Paris Hilton ? Now I'm totally confused.
10.17.2008 6:52pm
Pat C (mail):
What really scares me is, how many other people have associated with Bill Ayers all these years? It's like a plague of termites in our house having all these Bill-Ayers-Associaters around. No wonder the country is going to heck.
10.17.2008 6:54pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
zarkov:

Why are you trying to make excuses for the Weathermen?


I'm not. I dislike bombs, and not just the ones that fall out of airplanes being piloted by people like McCain. However, I think there's a moral difference between making an effort to evacuate a target, as compared with not making an effort. Therefore I think it's relevant to know that WUO apparently made some kind of an effort. This is consistent with the fact that aside from Oughton, Gold, and Robbins (who killed themselves in an accident), there are this many documented cases of WUO killing someone: zero.
10.17.2008 7:30pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
pat:

how many other people have associated with Bill Ayers all these years? It's like a plague of termites in our house having all these Bill-Ayers-Associaters around.


In 1997 Ayers won Chicago's "Citizen of the Year" award. So the third-largest city in the country is obviously a hotbed of radicalism.
10.17.2008 7:30pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
This analysis shows where McCain lies on the liberal conservative axis. Read the site for the methodology. McCain turns out as more conservative than I thought, but he is well to the left of Bush. Hillary and Obama are almost coincident. Thus McCain is well to the right of the Democrats in the Senate, but to the left of most Republicans. This analysis shows that the Senate has become highly polarized as to ideology. There is essentially no overlap. Even Specter comes out to the right of the Democrat Senators.

If the Democrats get a super majority in the Senate then the Senate will really lurch left as the Republicans will be neutered. They might as well go home and watch television. The US government will become a one-party state, and only the courts can stand in the way of a total power grab.

Some will welcome this change, but I for one do not want either party to rule. I like divided government.
10.17.2008 7:38pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Sorry the link does not go directly to the graphs. Go to this link instead. I had to do some tricks to get this right.
10.17.2008 7:43pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Interesting. Scroll down to the "DW nominate with bootstrap standard errors" graph and you can see the McCain really is an outlier from the Republicans. Obama is more representative of his party than McCain is of his. This validates my original inutition.
10.17.2008 7:48pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
zarkov:

Obama is more representative of his party than McCain is of his.


Thanks for that interesting material. I notice that this refutes the extremely popular claim that Obama is the most liberal senator.
10.17.2008 8:08pm
MarkField (mail):

This is consistent with the fact that aside from Oughton, Gold, and Robbins (who killed themselves in an accident), there are this many documented cases of WUO killing someone: zero.


This is true only if you also exclude the Brinks robbery. Ayers was long gone from the Weather Underground by then, and I guess we could debate whether it was even the WU which carried out that robbery, but assuming it does count, then we have to count those deaths.
10.17.2008 8:27pm
byomtov (mail):
painful to listen to


He's your guy. I'd expect you to enjoy listening to his ideas.
10.17.2008 9:43pm
Floridan:
"everything illegal that Ayers did, he did out of hatred for America; everything illegal that Liddy did, he did out of his love for America"

Which, I would say, makes Liddy a more dangerous person.
10.18.2008 12:02am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
mark:

I guess we could debate whether it was even the WU which carried out that robbery


I think's it's reasonable for you to bring it up, but I've been relying on the following description:

The Brinks robbery of 1981 (October 20, 1981) was an armed robbery carried out by Black Liberation Army members Jeral Wayne Williams (aka Mutulu Shakur), Donald Weems (aka Kuwasi Balagoon), Samuel Smith, Nathaniel Burns (aka Sekou Odinga), Cecilio "Chui" Ferguson, Samuel Brown (aka Solomon Bouines), and several former members of the Weather Underground, now belonging to the May 19 Communist Organization (David Gilbert, Samuel Brown, Judith Alice Clark, Kathy Boudin, and Marilyn Buck), and an unknown number of accomplices.


If a crime was committed by "several former members" of the GOP, "now belonging to" Organization X, it's probably not fair to blame the crime on the GOP. And the robbery happened in 1981, which is years after the main period of WUO activity.
10.18.2008 1:50pm
Dan M.:
Florida, are you really suggesting that Liddy is now a more dangerous person than Bill Ayers?

Bill Ayers is working in the university system to completely undermine our education system so that we can radicalize our children and become Communists. And it's working. Communist Bill Ayers is vice president for curriculum of the American Education Research Association. Politicians, including Barack Obama, have helped him push his radical agenda.

What is G. Gordon Liddy doing that's so dangerous? He's a talk radio host and a mild fascist with some oddly conflicting ideas about freedom in America. I don't see any politicians that have been helping him push his agendas, whatever they are, even if they are appearing on his radio show and going to fundraisers at his house. And the only "radical" agendas that Liddy seems to have are his enthusiasm for the War on Drugs, and his misunderstanding of the politics of war.

If John McCain had worked on a foundation with G. Gordon Liddy that gave out grants to push some radical view that G. Gordon Liddy has, then I'd be concerned about McCain's relationship with Liddy.
10.18.2008 3:50pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
dan:

are you really suggesting that Liddy is now a more dangerous person than Bill Ayers?


You and McCain should try to do a better job of coordinating your talking points. According to McCain, Ayers is "washed up."
10.18.2008 5:12pm
Dan M.:
jukebox,

John McCain is too nice. He doesn't want to accuse the entire education system in this country of veering toward Communism because of people like Bill Ayers and his protege Barack Obama. Do you know why America spends more per capita on education than any nation in the world and has the worst achievement in math and science? It's because of ideas about education perpetuated by people like Bill Ayers.
10.18.2008 9:42pm
byomtov (mail):
Do you know why America spends more per capita on education than any nation in the world and has the worst achievement in math and science? It's because of ideas about education perpetuated by people like Bill Ayers.

I heard W had a sure-fire plan for Iraq that would have gotten everything done and the troops home in six months, but Bill Ayers somehow got a hold of it and messed it up.

He also caused the financial crisis by making banks use 95%+ leverage. And don't get me started on how he screwed up the response to Katrina.

This is some seriously bad dude. No wonder McCain is making such an issue of him.
10.18.2008 11:50pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
Bill Ayers somehow got a hold of it and messed it up.


This is all terribly confusing, because I thought the main source of all our troubles was The Clenis™.
10.19.2008 1:08am
Dan M.:
Again, you guys miss the point entirely. Bill Ayers is actively working to radicalize our education system. That movement seeks to make "social justice" indoctrination a more prominent part of education. It didn't start with him, and he's only a part of the movement, but he's a prominent part of it, and Barack Obama has participated in that movement. If you can similarly link John McCain to a radical movement, and specifically through G. Gordon Liddy, then go right ahead.

So, yeah, I'll admit, I don't care that Obama was friends with Bill Ayers, and I don't care that he attended some fundraiser or whatever the hell it was at Bill Ayers' home. But if other people DO care, then that's a legitimate attack. I personally find Obama's actual work with Bill Ayers to be much more damning.

And, yeah, if you think people are concerned about McCain's relationship with Gordon Liddy, make a fucking ad about it. But if you are making an actual argument that McCain's relationship with Liddy is a genuine concern, then please give me a radical view of Liddy's that McCain has promoted. But even if McCain had somehow in the past supported Liddy's crazy "kill 'em all" approach to war, he could give an Obamarific defense of Liddy by saying something like "G. Gordon Liddy is a guy that, almost 40 years ago, while I was overseas fighting for my country, burglarized the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee at the behest of a sitting president, Richard Nixon, that resulted in a felony conviction and a 20 year sentence. His sentence was commuted by Democratic president Jimmy Carter, a friend of mine and Barack Obama's. I'm not ashamed to know Gordon Liddy."

In fact, John McCain already said it himself. He told Dave Letterman, "I'm not in any way embarrassed to know Gordon Liddy." So go ahead, criticize John McCain for everything that Gordon Liddy has ever said. And if John McCain lies about his associations like Obama has, then I'll criticize him, too.
10.19.2008 3:09am