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The Role of the Vice-President:

N.Y. Times:

In interviews, many women, citing their own difficulties with less demanding jobs, said it would be impossible for Ms. Palin to succeed both at motherhood and in the nation's second-highest elected position at once.

"You can juggle a BlackBerry and a breast pump in a lot of jobs, but not in the vice presidency," said Christina Henry de Tessan, a mother of two in Portland, Ore., who supports Mr. Obama.

Her thoughts were echoed by some Republicans, including Anne Faircloth, daughter of former Senator Lauch Faircloth of North Carolina. Being a governor is one thing, Ms. Faircloth said, and Ms. Palin's husband, Todd, seems like a supportive spouse. "But running for the second-highest office in the land is a very different kettle of fish," she said.

Many women expressed incredulity — some of it polite, some angry — that Ms. Palin would pursue the vice presidency given her younger son's age and condition. Infants with Down syndrome often need special care in the first years of life: extra tests, physical therapy, even surgery.

In fact, all Palin has to do is campaign until the first week in November. After that, she can spend all the time she wishes with her family. The only constitutional role the vice-president has [besides breaking tie votes as "President of the Senate] is to be available in case the president dies or becomes incapacitated. To be prepared for that, Palin should get occasional briefings on national security issues. Beyond that, the vice-presidency is perhaps the ideal job to "juggle a BlackBerry and a breast pump," because a vice-president need not do anything.

Put another way, unless the vice-president takes on role not constitutionally assigned to her (as recent veeps, most prominently Dick Cheney, have), it's a far less demanding job than being governor of Alaska.

UPDATE: BTW, Obama has two little girls, and given that the president does have real, pressing issues to deal with, as well as an inevitable worldwide travel schedule, it will be far hard for him to be a good dad while president than for Palin to be a good mom while being veep. But that's not really the voters' problem, and it would be foolish to take this into account when voting.

dearieme:
Yeah,it really will be worth a pail of p***.
9.2.2008 2:08pm
tvk:
I tell ya, the presidency of the Senate gets no respect.
9.2.2008 2:10pm
Norman Bates (mail):
It's fun to watch liberals get desperate.
9.2.2008 2:13pm
Steve P. (mail):
Seconding tvk. I mean, isn't the vice president actually a member of the legislative branch?
9.2.2008 2:13pm
loki13 (mail):
DB-

Just out of curiousity (really), if the only job of the VP (other than Presidency of the Senate) is to be ready if the President dies or is incapacitated, do you believe Palin is ready to be President if McCain dies or is incapacitated on the first day of his administration?

IOW, is your argument that she can become President without a problem, or that she's unlikely to be President, and VP is a bogus job anyway?
9.2.2008 2:14pm
Richard Riley (mail):
David, that is special pleading and you know it. Let's say an interviewer asks her, "Governor, how do you see your job and your role as President McCain's Vice President if he's elected?" Do you think it will wash for Palin to answer along the lines you suggest here? ("Katie, under the Constitution I don't really have to do anything, and I don't really plan to!")

Gore and Cheney have raised the profile of and expectations for the Vice President, and explicitly moving back to a bucket of warm piss just isn't in the cards.
9.2.2008 2:14pm
Radovan Karadzic (mail):
how many ties did Cheney have to break?
9.2.2008 2:15pm
Mad Max:
Horse hockey. My mom, alone, managed to be an excellent mother as well as a physician, which is far, far more demanding than being VP.
9.2.2008 2:15pm
loki13 (mail):
BTW, my modest proposal: can we switch the name of this blog to the "Palin Conspiracy" until the election? Wasn't there a convention or something going on?
9.2.2008 2:16pm
smitty1e:
Now, look: this is a Karl Rove production.
Are we to believe the thought is not to groom Mrs. Palin for a few years in the Executive Branch, and then run her as the American Margaret Thatcher in 2012/6?
You go, lady.
9.2.2008 2:17pm
Hanah Volokh (mail) (www):
She does have to preside over the Senate and break ties there. An extremely demanding job. :)
9.2.2008 2:17pm
Federal Dog:

The fact that The NY Times claims that "many" (how "many?") women have expressed this opinion does not automatically make that claim false, but independent and professional sources would be necessary to justify reliance on that claim.
9.2.2008 2:21pm
Cornellian (mail):
Beyond that, the vice-presidency is perhaps the ideal job to "juggle a BlackBerry and a breast pump," because a vice-president need not do anything.

Well, technically, the President doesn't have to do anything either. He can basically take a four year vacation and there's nothing in the Constitution that prohibits him from doing so other than Congress's power to impeach and remove him for being such a slacker, and they can do that with the VP as well.
9.2.2008 2:21pm
Per Son:
The amount of sexism surrounding Palin is disgusting. For what it is worth, I would never vote for McCain. I'll point out a few things:

1. That she is a mother of 5 children (why should this matter? Would this matter for a man? My guess is she that knows how to juggle her family life. Maybe the dad will be a stay at home dad. Who knows).

2. That women will vote for her, because she is a woman. (My guess is that most Hillary voters are quite liberal, and very few only would vote for Hillary on the basis of her gender. It is so sexist to assume that women in droves will vote for Palin simply because she is female).

3. Biden needs to be soft on Palin. (Many people have stated that there will be backlash if Biden is too tough on Palin. Why, because Biden should be softer on account of her gender? Yeesh. I am sure she can hold her own).

My other big peeve is this so-called "walking the walk" pro-life BS. The impression that conservatives give are that all pro-choicers would just go and abort if they had a sick/disabled child in utero, or that pro-choice unmarried pregnant women are off to the clinic. Walking-the-walk pro-choice style is simply acknowledging that people have choices.
9.2.2008 2:21pm
Davidbernstein (mail):
R.R. I think it should be moved back. The president's officers are supposed to be confirmed by the Senate. The Vice President has no business, e.g., running a foreign policy operation.

But in any event, the expectation is that the VP will go to funerals around the world and whatnot, but there's no reason the president, citing Palin's family responsibilities, can't keep her in D.C.
9.2.2008 2:22pm
Boyd G (www):
Women can work full-time, care for their children, cook meals, clean the house, do the laundry, in fact, they can do everything.

Until, that is, the woman in question is a Republican running for Vice President. Then she can't even do two of the items on the above list.

I think I understand NOW now.
9.2.2008 2:23pm
dr:
Seconding Richard Riley. I hope for the McCain campaign's sake that the candidate herself doesn't attempt the "Look, I'm just here 'til November" argument. Because the implicit continuation of that argument is "And then I'll go back to my fishing hole in Alaska and look after Trig and help Bristol and wait for that 3 am phone call where they tell me I'm President."

Really, man. There are plenty of good ways to defend this decision by McCain. Some of them have even been aired here. This is not one of them.
9.2.2008 2:24pm
great unknown (mail):
loki13:
This is a libertarian blog, after all.

I am intrigued with what the Palin bashers would say if questioned about the "day-to-day duties of a VP." When Palin said she didn't know what a VP does on a day-to-day basis, the vast ignorant intelligensia arose in a wave: "She's denigrating the Vice-Presidency". It is true, of course, that Clinton was indeed a vice President.
9.2.2008 2:24pm
Cornellian (mail):
She does have to preside over the Senate and break ties there. An extremely demanding job. :)

Well she'd have to remember to bring a coin to work every day.
9.2.2008 2:25pm
Per Son:
Who says that this smear against Palin ("cannot work because she is a mother") is perpetrated by just liberals? The cited article refers to some Republicans, and others whose affiliations are not listed.
9.2.2008 2:26pm
krs:
Hanah beat me to it.

Per Son, I don't think the "walking the walk" talk implies that pro-choicers would automatically abort disabled or unplanned children... just that someone who's taken a political stand faced a tough moral choice and made a choice consistent with her political stance. Perhaps people are making too much out of it, but it is noteworthy.
9.2.2008 2:27pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):
Here's an idea-

Every three years or so, the Times runs an article in their Arts and Entertainment section that glorifies graffiti, portraying it as a precious urban/minority art form.

The next time the Times runs one of those articles, lets all meet in front of their new building they eminent-domain'd themselves into, and tag the living sh*t outta the place... how could they possibly press charges?
9.2.2008 2:28pm
DerHanh (mail):
Per Son - from the article - You can juggle a BlackBerry and a breast pump in a lot of jobs, but not in the vice presidency," said Christina Henry de Tessan, a mother of two in Portland, Ore., who supports Mr. Obama.
9.2.2008 2:31pm
Mad Max:
Who says that this smear against Palin ("cannot work because she is a mother") is perpetrated by just liberals?

It's not. Auster is in a real tizzy about it.
9.2.2008 2:31pm
anon101:
I'm a woman and a mother and I believe than women can both work and be mothers (in this case, be VP and a mother to 5). But it does seem odd that she would want to run for VP position in this particular time in her life -- with a few month old Down syndrome baby (babies are VERY demanding during the first 6 mo of their lives or so; let alone a baby w/Down Syndrome) and a pregnant teen (why would she want to put her daughter in the position that she is in now (under intense media scrutiny))?
9.2.2008 2:31pm
Davidbernstein (mail):
Cornellian, the president has the constitutional responsibility to be commander in chief of the army, and to execute the laws of the U.S. The vice-president has nothing, beyond being a voteless "president of the Senate."
9.2.2008 2:32pm
Per Son:
KRS:

I guess I believe that too much is being made out of it, as I know several women who all had to make similar choices. Some chose to keep the baby, others got abortions. I saw all of them as making tough moral decisions in light of their moral/political beliefs - all of them being pro-choice. I don't give them any extra kudos. Some pro-lifers have made a similar argument - it was easy for them to keep the child period - anything else to them would be murder.
9.2.2008 2:33pm
Mad Max:
it does seem odd that she would want to run for VP position in this particular time in her life -- with a few month old Down syndrome baby (babies are VERY demanding during the first 6 mo of their lives or so; let alone a baby w/Down Syndrome)

No more odd than the countless women lawyers and physicians and other professionals who are back to work with a 3 month old baby at home.
9.2.2008 2:34pm
great unknown (mail):
Glenn W. Bowen:
That kind of attack may comprise mutilating a corpse. As a libertarian (small l), I just lean back and watch the market educating the foolish investors in Sulzberger Jr.'s prostituting a once-great journalistic institution into a sadder (and hopefully wiser) understanding of what the American public really wants.
9.2.2008 2:34pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):

3. Biden needs to be soft on Palin. (Many people have stated that there will be backlash if Biden is too tough on Palin. Why, because Biden should be softer on account of her gender? Yeesh. I am sure she can hold her own).


I've watched Biden for years in amazement, often times while struggling to stay awake.

Despite his party's warnings to him, and preparation, Biden will underestimate Mrs. Palin.

Mrs. Palin will bury this guy and she could do it whether or not Biden underestimates her or not- that's just a matter of degree measured in feet of earth piled on top of him.
9.2.2008 2:35pm
RSF677:
Well, Joe Biden continued working as Senator following the death of his wife and serious injuries to his sons. Additionally, John Edwards had an 8 year old and a dying wife and still ran for President. I think both of those situations are more serious than Palin's situation, but I heard anything about it disqualifying them for office. Palin at least has a spouse.
9.2.2008 2:36pm
loki13 (mail):
DB-

I'm still awaiting an answer. Is your critique that Palin could step in on day one and handle the Presidency, or that we don't need to worry because the VP doesn't do anything?

The first would be persuasive, if you care to make it. The second- not so much.

(Ex. It's okay that the understudy can't sing. The lead hasn't been sick in two years!)
9.2.2008 2:37pm
Ben P (mail):
I'm not immediately sure about the Vice President, but I would assume it is as true for the vice president as it would be for her if she was president.

She may have to balance being VP (and possibly president) and a mother, but she would have a lot of help doing so. Each of her kids will get their very own personal secret service agent to follow them around and presumably drive them places and ensure that the kids aren't getting into trouble. They aren't exactly babysitters, but few parents could afford someone to watch each of their kids nearly full time.

Now, maybe one could quibble about quality of care etc, but isn't that pretty much the whole rationale in providing the President with all of the comforts he gets in the Whitehouse? If he's not burdened with managing the everyday details that we all have to manage he can devote that much more attention to his job and presumably have a higher quality of life than someone who does an equivalent amount of work but has no support staff.
9.2.2008 2:37pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):
great unknown-

Yes, it does seem they're devouring themselves from the inside.
9.2.2008 2:38pm
LarryA (mail) (www):
Given Palen's record as governor, I have a feeling that there will be a lot more politicians of all stripes wishing she was less active, than wishing she was more involved.

Note also that, as a child of the vice president, Trig will have the best medical care available.
9.2.2008 2:38pm
Suzy (mail):
I agree with "dr"--of all the ways to defend the nomination, this one strikes me as least persuasive. She should be fine for the job of VP because she won't have to do anything important? Wow, that's even more condescending than the claims that she can't do it because she'll be too tied up with the "women's" work of caring for kids.
9.2.2008 2:39pm
Per Son:
Mr. Bowen:

You may be right. Experienced or not, ready for the job or not - Palin is no shrinking violet, and the worst mistake is to underestimate her and play the "I am so smart game." We'll see.
9.2.2008 2:39pm
js5 (mail):
all of this talk about Palin has taken away from the ultra-problematic policies of McCain (which is not to say Obama's are any better).

I read a good analogy in the paper this morning. "Voting for McCain because of Palin is like buying a ticket to see Hannah Montana because Jimmmy Hendrix is on guitar. No matter how great Hendrix really is, he's still having to play crappy Hannah tunes..."
9.2.2008 2:41pm
ronbailey (www):
Wait a minute - McCain's whole argument against her relative inexperience is that she will be actively learning on the job. If you are saying she'll spend her hours sitting around waiting for McCain to drop dead, then you just undercut your candidate's point.

You might want to rethink how you're going to play this.
9.2.2008 2:42pm
dr:

No more odd than the countless women lawyers and physicians and other professionals who are back to work with a 3 month old baby at home.


Perhaps you're right, though it's worth noting that she went back to work when her baby was 3 days old.

I won't weigh in on whether or not she should be working, much less running for VP, with a 3-month-old special needs child at home. It's her family, and it's her decision to make. But I think her choice here might give many Americans -- both right and left -- pause. I don't think it's illegitimate for Americans to question that choice as they consider how they intend to vote.
9.2.2008 2:42pm
Mad Max:
the worst mistake is to underestimate her and play the "I am so smart game."

I can't wait for the pi$$ing contest about the relative merits of the University of Delaware vs. the University of Idaho...
9.2.2008 2:43pm
Mad Max:
it's worth noting that she went back to work when her baby was 3 days old.

So did my mom. That was in the days before maternity leave, of course.
9.2.2008 2:44pm
Suzy (mail):
Normally I would not think it appropriate to bring her choices about her children and family into judgment of her qualifications for office. However, I do think the rules change when a candidate explicitly recommends herself to us on the basis of these family judgments.
9.2.2008 2:44pm
Mr. Bingley (www):
Has no one ever been able to "balance being VP and a father" before?
9.2.2008 2:45pm
plutosdad (mail):
This is really bizarre. I knew under Clinton the Democrats set feminism back a few decades, I thought they learned from that. I expect these arguments from people on the Right, not the Left.

"why would she want to put her daughter in the position that she is in now"
Well then no parent would ever run for office until their kids were 25. On second thought maybe that's a good idea..
9.2.2008 2:45pm
LarryA (mail) (www):
I'm still awaiting an answer. Is your critique that Palin could step in on day one and handle the Presidency, or that we don't need to worry because the VP doesn't do anything?
I think Palin, right now, is better prepared than Obama. Also, a huge plus, I believe she's humble enough to ask questions instead of thinking she has all the answers. Palin may be from Alaska, but I think Obama has yet to leave Chicago.
9.2.2008 2:46pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):

You may be right. Experienced or not, ready for the job or not - Palin is no shrinking violet, and the worst mistake is to underestimate her and play the "I am so smart game." We'll see.


After watching Biden in hearings involving the committees he serves, the impression I usually take away from his performance is he's an insouciant hothead who spends a lot more time winding up rather than delivering- "five words or less" ain't in his vocabulary.

I don't know how much debating he has to do, or has done, over the terms in the senate he's served. I do know that he's perennially elected in a state one could walk across in a day.
9.2.2008 2:47pm
rarango (mail):
The Palin stuff Otra Vez :(

We should reduce these arguments to numbers so we don't have wade the respective background:

(1) = lack of experience
(2) = motherhood thing
(3) = unmarried PG daughter
(4) = "Troopergate" allegations
(5) = insufficiently vetted thing

OK--There's my contribution to brevity--as if anyone was actually going to change their vote from McCain to Obama because of the Palin pick--yeah right.
9.2.2008 2:48pm
plutosdad (mail):
Actually I think she'll do a great job. After all she led the refugees of the 13 colonies rather well, and at the time she had cancer!
9.2.2008 2:48pm
great unknown (mail):
Mad Max:
T'aint happening. At this very moment, Palin is rehearsing her Reagenesque "There you go again" headshake with the McCain staff.
9.2.2008 2:48pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
If y'all have been paying attention, I wouldn't have nominated Palin to begin with. That said, I can't see any reason why someone can't have one, two, or twenty children and be vice-president, given that the vice-president has no set responsibilities. She can review a few hours worth of briefing papers in the V.P. mansion every day easily enough.

Let's face it, much of the public "debate" over v.p. choices results from the fact that most Americans think the V.P is a vice-president like the vp of a corporation, with responsibilities just short of the president, when in fact the v.p. properly has little to no role in the day to day functioning of the government.
9.2.2008 2:49pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
And, btw, Obama has two small children. Much harder to be a decent dad while being president than to be a decent mom while being veep.
9.2.2008 2:50pm
D.R.M.:
Her husband works seasonally as blue-collar labor in Alaska. Does anybody actually think he's going to keep doing that in DC?

Now, anybody really doubt that the Vice President can arrange to have a full-time nanny to assist?

So, we've got a full-time dad, assisted by a full-time nanny, plus whatever time the Vice-President can spare from her duties. Does anybody really think Trig isn't going to get enough care?

So, what's left? Sexism. Since she's the mother, not the father, she should be staying home with the kid no matter what, even if the kid is going to be just fine, because she's the mother.
9.2.2008 2:51pm
Per Son:
DB:

But lets face it - it is hard writing those articles and teaching when you can play with little Natalie.

(If you could not tell, I have baby-itis and am planning on working on my first soon).
9.2.2008 2:53pm
Big E:
In fact, all Palin has to do is campaign until the first week in November.

Ok, but who is running Alaska.


In other news I'm giving even odds that Palin won't be on the ticket come Nomvember.
9.2.2008 2:54pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
I too was raised by a single working mother, with the help of a nanny during my infancy and a grandmother later. Palin has the help of a good husband and older children who can help with the younger ones. I largely raised myself, and that worked out fine.

Palin would not have agreed to serve as VP unless she was assured it would be a productive role, and I would expect her to become McCain's chief domestic adviser, next only to Cindy. I see those two ladies, and perhaps Condi Rice if she is asked and agrees to stay on as Secretary iof State, making McCain a much better president.

Palin is already better prepared to step into the presidency, if necessary, than Truman was when he did, and she's a lot more intelligent than Truman.

Leaving aside that I am a Libertarian, I see McCain gathering a much better set of advisers than Obama is. Obama might make a good president if he were libertarian. He is a lot better than his party or their positions.
9.2.2008 2:54pm
dr:

Has no one ever been able to "balance being VP and a father" before?



This is exactly why I said I wasn't going to weigh in on whether she should be running for VP. As I said, it's her choice. But people have every right to evaluate a candidate based on her personal choices -- and they do. And for most Americans, there's a difference in the demands on the father of young kids -- e.g., Obama's two daughters -- and the mother of an infant, much less a special-needs infant. I think it's fair to use Palin's choice as one more data point in our evaluation of her.

I say this, by the way, as a work-from-home dad who looks after two kids under 6. I'm sure Mr. Palin is entirely capable of taking care of the Palin clan himself while his wife learns all about presidenting. But when my kids were born, my wife stayed home with them/us for the longest her maternity leave would allow, and I wouldn't have wanted otherwise. So yes, this plays into my thinking about Ms. Palin.
9.2.2008 2:55pm
Syd Henderson (mail):
anon101:
I'm a woman and a mother and I believe than women can both work and be mothers (in this case, be VP and a mother to 5). But it does seem odd that she would want to run for VP position in this particular time in her life


How many opportunities do you think she'll have?
9.2.2008 2:55pm
Prufrock765 (mail):
Something that has been puzzling me about these "she's-not-ready" criticisms of Gov Palin:
Could a critic of Palin please state specifically either the personal characteristics or the professional attainments of Obama that make him better qualified to be President than Palin?

Additionally: I think we can all agree that being VP is pretty good training for being president. Given that, could a critic also state how soon Palin, assuming that she is elected VP, will presumably have acquired sufficient experience to surpass that which Obama now has?
(Let's assume that she has the normal compliment of intellectual gifts and resolve that an average VP would have).

Palin may be an empty skirt in way over her head. But I don't quite see the justification for the glee about her short resume that is coming from the "O and Joe" camp.
9.2.2008 2:56pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):

OK--There's my contribution to brevity--as if anyone was actually going to change their vote from McCain to Obama because of the Palin pick--yeah right.


Or vice versa; the effect Palin has had, IMO, is to solidify the party, not to garner swing votes, etc.

If the republicans lose, we still have a party, we still have Palin, and say, Bob Jindal- excellent personel for election cycles beyond this one.

It's a lot better than the gooey non-conservative mess the party was prior to the VP announcement.
9.2.2008 2:57pm
js5 (mail):
has anyone heard of Olympia Snow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_Snowe

why in the heck didn't McCain consider her???? She's got practically everything Palin doesn't have. It would have been a lock.
9.2.2008 2:57pm
Melancton Smith:

I'm a woman and a mother and I believe than women can both work and be mothers (in this case, be VP and a mother to 5). But it does seem odd that she would want to run for VP position in this particular time in her life -- with a few month old Down syndrome baby (babies are VERY demanding during the first 6 mo of their lives or so; let alone a baby w/Down Syndrome) and a pregnant teen (why would she want to put her daughter in the position that she is in now (under intense media scrutiny))?


Math Question: If Trig is 4 months old in August, how old will he be next January?

Perhaps she might have already weighed the pros and cons and evaluated her particular son's particular special needs and made an informed judgement. I know, I know, "informed judgement" doesn't seem possible without the Government interfering according to some.
9.2.2008 2:58pm
loki13 (mail):
dr,

FYI, Sarah Palin announced that Todd would be staying at home to take care of the kids if she won the governorship. He continued working. She said that she had made that promise without consulting him; apparently he wasn't enjoying the full-time Mr. Mom status. So while he is capable, he has not chosen to do so. I do not hold this against the Palins; many (most?) American families have both parents work. But it is another data point in the ever-growing constellation of data we are learning about Alaska's governor.
9.2.2008 3:00pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):

Ok, but who is running Alaska.


I would assume the Lt. Governor, if need be.
9.2.2008 3:00pm
loki13 (mail):
Todd Palin is also, apparently, one heckuva snowmobiler.
9.2.2008 3:01pm
Sarcastro (www):
Only the mother can take care of the baby! This this responsibility is only Ms. Palin's.

It is also well known that white house child care is some of the worst on the planet.

Won't someone please think of the children?
9.2.2008 3:03pm
Seamus (mail):
The only constitutional role the vice-president has [besides breaking tie votes as "President of the Senate] is to be available in case the president dies or becomes incapacitated. To be prepared for that, Palin should get occasional briefings on national security issues.

I don't believe Truman got even those occasional briefings. (If he had, the atom bomb wouldn't have come as news to him when he succeeded to the presidency.)
9.2.2008 3:05pm
Bored Lawyer:
Since these issues are being raised about Palin's child care plans, should they also not be asked about Obama's? After all, he has two small children, his wife works full-time as a lawyer, and he is both a Senator and candidate for President. Who is watching his daughters while they are so busy?
9.2.2008 3:05pm
great unknown (mail):
loki13:
my information is that he quit his job on the pipeline (about $100K annually) to avoid conflict-of-interest and/or scheduling issues and now works part-time for his union. adn.com
9.2.2008 3:12pm
Melancton Smith:

Only the mother can take care of the baby! This this responsibility is only Ms. Palin's.

It is also well known that white house child care is some of the worst on the planet.

Won't someone please think of the children?


It's true, it seems we are suggesting that a conservative is going to want to have the Government raise her children? LOL. OMG, I'm turning into Sarcastro!
9.2.2008 3:12pm
Sarcastro (www):
Bored Lawyer Dude, didn't you notice? Obama's a guy. We don't care about their families.

It's tradition, like when no one cared about Biden's ability to take care of newly motherless children when he came into the senate.
9.2.2008 3:14pm
GMS:
anon101:
I'm a woman and a mother and I believe than women can both work and be mothers (in this case, be VP and a mother to 5). But it does seem odd that she would want to run for VP position in this particular time in her life


I agree. She should have waited until next year to run.
9.2.2008 3:15pm
pluribus:
Suzy:

Normally I would not think it appropriate to bring her choices about her children and family into judgment of her qualifications for office. However, I do think the rules change when a candidate explicitly recommends herself to us on the basis of these family judgments.

I missed the part where she "explicitly recommended herself to us on the basis of these family judgments." Please play the "explicit" part back for me. I happen to agree with Obama that all of this is irrelevant. A candidate's family should be out of bounds, and particularly a candidate's kids. If Dems don't let this puppy rest, it may well turn around and bite them.
9.2.2008 3:16pm
Mad Max:
Dude, didn't you notice? Obama's a guy. We don't care about their families.

Yeah, but he also asked about Michelle Obama. Oh wait, never mind, she's a guy too... more of one than Barack, anyway...
9.2.2008 3:16pm
krs:
"You can juggle a BlackBerry and a breast pump in a lot of jobs, but not in the vice presidency," said Christina Henry de Tessan, a mother of two in Portland, Ore., who supports Mr. Obama.

According to the Blackberry site, their devices weigh about 4-5 ounces.

According to Amazon, the top 2 hits for "breast pump" have shipping weights of 2.2 pounds and 14.4 ounces


Given the disparity in weight and the unwieldy shape of a breast pump, I would think that anyone other than an accomplished juggler would have difficulty juggling a Blackberry and a breast pump. I'm not sure what the vice presidency has to do with it.

Also, I think Ms. Henry de Tessan has a lot to learn about being a head of state. I'm not sure what scenarios she imagines where the vice president will be called upon to juggle a Blackberry and a breast pump. If McCain and Medvedev are in diplomatic negotiations, and Medvedev says "I will only withdraw my troops from Uzbekistan if your vice president can defeat mine in a juggling contest of Blackberries and breast pumps," McCain and Palin would probably ask a few questions, balk, or respond with a counterproposal rather than just blindly agreeing to the contest.
9.2.2008 3:18pm
Sarcastro (www):
[Mad Max: Not sure if you noticed, but I was kind of agreeing with Bored Lawyer there.

Though it was neat that you met my frustration with the left's sexist tactics by calling Barak Obama a girl as an insult.]
9.2.2008 3:21pm
ronbailey (www):
@Prufrock765

"Could a critic of Palin please state specifically either the personal characteristics or the professional attainments of Obama that make him better qualified to be President than Palin?"

Professional attainment: Took on and defeated the strongest political organization of his era, a task the entire GOP failed at - twice.

Personal characteristic: Showed comparative restraint by keeping his family relatively small. Has shown absolutely no tendency to use his office as a club to beat down rogue family members or political adversaries. Previous rivals typically speak highly of him, in rather stark contrast to Ms. Palin.
9.2.2008 3:23pm
loki13 (mail):
great unknown-

That article was from over a year and a half ago- you know, when they were trying to live up to campaign promises. Todd works a week on / week off schedule as a sloper (on the production line) for an oil company. He works part time as a commercial fisherman during his weeks "off". These are admirable traits- but not those of a stay-at-home dad.

Sources- official Alaska government website, any article printed in the last year.
9.2.2008 3:23pm
D.R.M.:
By the way, the VP does have a statutory responsibility as a member of the National Security Council.

Anybody really think thirty hours a week is insufficient study time on national security to prepare for the Presidency?

So, assume about ten hours/week average of ceremonial duties, thirty hours/week average of national security work, and next-to-zero hours a week of constitutional duties (there's a President Pro Tempore, after all). Anybody really think, along with full-time professional child-care assistance, you can't juggle that with the needs of her kids? Really?
9.2.2008 3:24pm
Clastrenster:
It's nice to know that a job with scads of free time and no substantive responsibilities, like being the Vice President of the US, allows for both extensive quality time with your 5 children and the opportunity to learn the executive branch ropes, just in case. It's almost like it sounds too good to be true.
9.2.2008 3:29pm
PaulD (mail):
I find it odd to listen to liberals raise objections that they would never apply to one of their own. It appears that they are raising objections that they really don't believe in, but think will ring true among religious-right voters. As a religious conservative who lives in a region that is politically dominated by religious conservatives, I can only say that I and others with whom I have spoken are delighted with Palin and we are not the least bit concerned about the fake (and hypocritical) handwringing that has taken over the leftwing of the blogosphere.
9.2.2008 3:29pm
Angus:

If the republicans lose, we still have a party, we still have Palin, and say, Bob Jindal- excellent personel for election cycles beyond this one.

This is another phenomenon that mystifies me. Jindal hasn't really done much other than be both Republican and non-white, yet is worshiped (and I mean that term) by conservatives on the internet. Really, his most impressive trait is job-hopping.

His typical pattern is to accept one job and then immediately start applying for one higher up. His average stay in a position is something like 18 to 20 months. He makes dramatic moves and splashy decisions, then leaves just as the results come in, leaving the resulting problems for his successors to fix.
9.2.2008 3:32pm
DCP:

Let's face it, much of the public "debate" over v.p. choices results from the fact that most Americans think the V.P is a vice-president like the vp of a corporation, with responsibilities just short of the president, when in fact the v.p. properly has little to no role in the day to day functioning of the government.



Couldn't agree more. People really need to review the history lessons on the VP.

And I find it a bit ironic that after 16 years of complaining about VPs who overstepped their bounds (Gore and Cheney), Democrats are suddenly concerned over this. Are they worried she won't have the full time and energy to transform herself into another Dick Cheney?

Questions about her abilities to assume the Presidency in the event of McCain's death are legitimate. Questions about her ability to cast the tie vote in the Senate (which will probably never happen given a 55-45 split in favor of the Democrats) or participate in these occaisional glorified photo ops are not.

With a few notable exceptions, I've always thought of the VP as an emasculated First Lady
9.2.2008 3:33pm
Clastrenster:
Three cheers to PaulD for finally stating the obvious. Dems are terrified by this brilliant off-the-cuff choice. Though to be fair, Dems would be flogging themselves if their candidate was a pro-life book-ban-wannabe lawyered-up possibly-reformed-gillnet-violating Malthusian nightmare which, in a way, makes the overwhelming support of McCain's choice even more admirable.
9.2.2008 3:35pm
PaulD (mail):




"Could a critic of Palin please state specifically either the personal characteristics or the professional attainments of Obama that make him better qualified to be President than Palin?"

RonBailey wrote in response:

"Professional attainment: Took on and defeated the strongest political organization of his era, a task the entire GOP failed at - twice.

Personal characteristic: Showed comparative restraint by keeping his family relatively small. Has shown absolutely no tendency to use his office as a club to beat down rogue family members or political adversaries. Previous rivals typically speak highly of him, in rather stark contrast to Ms. Palin."

Mr. Bailey: Is that really the best you can come up with on behalf of Mr. Obama. I think that is quite telling. It is also quite telling that Obama supporters perceive the need to defend Obama's qualification against the qualifications of McCain's VP choice.
9.2.2008 3:35pm
Smokey:
Cornellian:
Well, technically, the President doesn't have to do anything either. He can basically take a four year vacation and there's nothing in the Constitution that prohibits him from doing so other than Congress's power to impeach and remove him for being such a slacker, and they can do that with the VP as well.
Congress would have a tough time impeaching a President for being a slacker, after the precedent set by Benjamin Harrison.

As President, Harrison only worked from 9 a.m. until 1 p.m., Mondays through Fridays. After lunch he would go for walks, play billiards, or do whatever he felt like doing.

The Vice President does even less. Let's face it, folks, the Democrats are blowing a gasket over Palin, bringing up these absolutely lame arguments. If it was a Democrat candidate, they'd be falling all over themselves, pointing out how capable women are. By falsely claiming that Palin isn't up to the job, Democrats are not only insulting women, they're showing their desperation and fear of a woman who has achieved everything she's set out to do.

It's crystal clear now that the Democrat Party has been entirely insincere in their claims that they support women's rights, and that they're anti-racist [note Bill and Hillary's racist campaign innuendoes, and the pass that Sen. Robert Byrd got when talking about "white niggers," and his never-repudiated KKK membership, and Jimmy Carter recently referring to Obama as "that colored boy" [and yes, Carter said "boy."]

The Democrat Party talks the talk. But they don't walk the walk! Now that they're facing the real deal in Governor Palin, they're getting apoplectic. 'Rat desperation is fun to watch.
9.2.2008 3:37pm
Clastrenster:
The Dems are going down with this one!
9.2.2008 3:38pm
Mad Max:
[Jindal's] typical pattern is to accept one job and then immediately start applying for one higher up.

Hey, just like Obambi!
9.2.2008 3:40pm
Steve P. (mail):
js5 — Olympia Snowe suffers from the same issue as McCain's original preferences of Tom Ridge or Joe Liberman. Namely, she's pro-choice, and many prominent Republicans made it extremely clear that was a non-starter.
9.2.2008 3:44pm
Hoosier:
the effect Palin has had, IMO, is to solidify the party, not to garner swing votes, etc.

Also, it seems, to kickstart his fundraising. he's doing better after the annoucement.
9.2.2008 3:45pm
EH (mail):
So, we've got a full-time dad, assisted by a full-time nanny, plus whatever time the Vice-President can spare from her duties. Does anybody really think Trig isn't going to get enough care?

I doubt it, but doesn't "Mr. Mom + Nanny" go against the culture of the Republican base just a little? Bonus points for settling on an archetype: Who's The Boss? Charles In Charge? Heck, there are just enough kids in play to put together an episode of "Facts Of Life." Maybe we can get Victoria Jackson to play Mrs. Garrett.
9.2.2008 3:46pm
NowMDJD (mail):

But in any event, the expectation is that the VP will go to funerals around the world and whatnot, but there's no reason the president, citing Palin's family responsibilities, can't keep her in D.C.

She can take the kids with her or leave them home with Todd. Same as Barack Obama can take his kids with him when he travels or leave them home.
9.2.2008 3:47pm
NowMDJD (mail):

has anyone heard of Olympia Snow?

why in the heck didn't McCain consider her???? She's got practically everything Palin doesn't have. It would have been a lock.

Maybe because she favors legalized abortion and voted to acquit Clinton in the impeachment trial. She and Spector ar the two most liberal Republicans. That isn't what McCain was looking for.
9.2.2008 3:49pm
loki13 (mail):
Hoosier,

I'll give you that. If there's one positive from this (so far) its the fundraising. Actually, two positives: fundraising and comedy. The threads on the internet have kept me in stitches for four days running, and tonight we get to see the professionals take a whack.

(if Palin actually makes a fer-real gaffe, the comedy floodgates will open. And I think we can all, Democrat and Republican, use more laughter. Who's going to play her on SNL?)
9.2.2008 3:51pm
Seamus (mail):
why in the heck didn't McCain consider her???? She's got practically everything Palin doesn't have.

Unfortunately, one of those things she's got is a pro-choice voting record.
9.2.2008 3:51pm
Glenn W. Bowen (mail):

This is another phenomenon that mystifies me. Jindal hasn't really done much other than be both Republican and non-white, yet is worshiped (and I mean that term) by conservatives on the internet. Really, his most impressive trait is job-hopping.


He campaigned as a reformer, won, and has reformed.

What other job is he doing besides the one he has?

He has said outright he wants to be the governor he is, and see it through.

...reform candidates in LA seldom (maybe never) serve more than one term.

You want an unabashed mercenary job jumper, look to Obama.
9.2.2008 3:53pm
Federal Dog:
""Professional attainment: Took on and defeated the strongest political organization of his era, a task the entire GOP failed at - twice."


What political organization are you referring to?
9.2.2008 3:57pm
William Newman (mail):
On one hand, I'm basically with people like Mad Max, who writes "Horse hockey. My mom, alone, managed to be an excellent mother as well as a physician, which is far, far more demanding than being VP." My own mom went through law school as a single mother with four children, and it seemed to work OK.

On the other hand, though, where the hell have all these indignant pundits and posters been for the past few decades, in controversies involving not informal social expectations for mothers' extra responsibilities to their children, but legally imposed differences in mothers' extra rights to their children? It's not hard to find single fathers who have done as good a job of raising their children as Max's and my mothers did juggling their children. That doesn't stop most people from supporting mothers but not fathers having official rights to win disputed custody, and having de facto rights to put infants up for adoption unilaterally. The justifications given are almost never any measurable difference (like the famous upper body strength for male firefighters), but a certain je ne sais qua. It seems to me that if for years you've supported the police enforcing different legal rights for mothers vs. fathers, justified by vague unstated stereotyped reasons, it leaves you in a weakened position to be honestly indignant about different informal expectations which follow from the same reasons.
9.2.2008 3:58pm
BGP (mail):
Senator Snow is a fine Senator. A bit boring. Certainly not a fresh new face, not someone who isn't beholden to the system, and someone who is an outsider.

If you want to compare the speaking styles of the two, go ahead.
9.2.2008 4:01pm
Smokey:
Angus:
This is another phenomenon that mystifies me. Jindal Obama hasn't really done much other than be both Republican Democrat and non-white, yet is worshiped (and I mean that term) by conservatives Liberals on the internet. Really, his most impressive trait is job-hopping.

His typical pattern is to accept one job and then immediately start applying for one higher up. His average stay in a position is something like 18 to 20 months. He makes dramatic moves and splashy decisions, then leaves just as the results come in, leaving the resulting problems for his successors to fix.
There ya go, Angus. Fixed it for you.
9.2.2008 4:01pm
MartyA:
Hussein and the neo-communist pimps he works for are terrified!
9.2.2008 4:05pm
James Blakey (mail):
My other big peeve is this so-called "walking the walk" pro-life BS. The impression that conservatives give are that all pro-choicers would just go and abort if they had a sick/disabled child in utero, or that pro-choice unmarried pregnant women are off to the clinic. Walking-the-walk pro-choice style is simply acknowledging that people have choices.

I think most people Pro-Choice AND Pro-Life abort. I have seen statistics that say 90%+ of all Downs babies/fetuses are aborted.
9.2.2008 4:07pm
Jim at FSU (mail):
I agree, if this question can be asked of Palin, it can fairly be asked of Obama and his young children.
9.2.2008 4:07pm
js5 (mail):
Two quick comments then.

1. The assertion that libs are 'running scared' is opposite to what drudge is showing: Obama hitting 50% for the first time. The libs aren't running scared, they're doing what they're going to do; attack the choice.

With this in mind, conservatives are also attacking such an absent-minded choice. Very few people can articulate what makes her so fit for the job (even despite the apparent lack of skills needed). Conservatives are arguing that she too has no experience, that there were more obviously better choices for McCain, and as I've been reading thier reactions all weekend, are questioning if her conservative credentials are little more than 'not having an abortion'. As I've said above, even if McCain had chosen Ron Paul or Pat Buchanan, it still does not negate the idiocy of McCain's policies. There are at least a dozen+ other person infinitely more qualified than she is. Conservatives (like myself) are disgusted that McCain's pick shows he's more interested in winning an election than running a government.

2. Consider for a moment that Palin could verywell be a proxy choice for vp. She has the greatest reasons to excuse herself from the spot and nobody could blame her for it. In turn, McCain KEEPS the right-wing christian vote which is what the pick is intended to do anyways: right-wing christians wanted the confidence that he was on thier side, and this choice gave them what they wanted. IF Palin does leave (and this is a debate for another thread), McCain keeps this vote, but he is also free to choose a more moderate person (not unlike Lieberman who he is still probably wanting). If he picked a moderate, he could likely get the PUMA's to switch to his side (especially if it is Snowe), he would retain full media coverage up-to, during, and throughout his mission to find a new VP, plus WHEN he picks a new VP, and leaves little time for leftist bloggers to do thier research. Further, it would build confidence back into his base that the next potential leader of the free world is a competent, experienced, and reasonable person to sit in such a position. Romney or Snowe would lock the white house for him.

In consideration that so little time was put into picking her, that she was chosen against his wishes, that he talked to her only once before making the choice, I'm wondering if this could actually be worthwhile looking into. I dont' believe in conspiracy theories and the like, but the building blocks for this conclusion are certainly recognizable at this point in time.
9.2.2008 4:22pm
EH (mail):
Who's going to play her on SNL?

I think Casey Wilson is the best fit for looks but Kristen Wiig is probably the better impressionist. Only a week and a half until we find out!
9.2.2008 4:25pm
private:
An odd thing strikes me when I look at a photo of Palin with her husband and four of her children. Photo was taken on the day when McCain announced Palin as his choice: There's Palin, center stage, and husband off to the left in the photo. Her three daughters are lined up, and the oldest daughter is holding the baby.

My thought when I saw that picture was: Interesting that the little baby got dumped on big sister to have to take care of him.

Now, NO, I am NOT promoting the absurd idea that the oldest daughter is the baby's mother! Nor am I thinking that there's anything particularly wrong with having an older child care for a new baby in the family.

However, it's a hell of a burden to dump on a teenager. And one might wonder if the teenager figured, "If I've got to take care of some baby, I'd rather it be my own baby." Count the months, and it seems that the older daughter got pregnant at about the time her mother gave birth, or just before or just after. Getting pregnant has been used as an escape for eons by young women. It may or may not be a smart choice, but it's one that women make.

However, regardless of these thoughts, I have no doubt that Gov. Palin will know how to find someone to take care of her children if she should become VP. As governor of Alaska, she also has had to make child care arrangments. ... Obama has found someone to care for his kids; his wife, even, has found someone to care for those same kids. Take a look around you, gentlemen: There aren't many of you valuing the people who actually provide the care for your children. These days, most big-shot men don't even have wives who care for children. These days, big-shot men -- conservative and liberal -- tend to have big-shot women for wives. Think Michelle Obama. She ain't sitting home and baking cookies for the PTA.
9.2.2008 4:25pm
Federal Dog:
Leftists are obviously very deeply threatened by Palin: If they were not, they'd be calm and reassured by the nomination. The over-the-top emotionalism of their hysterical rumors and attacks speaks for itself.
9.2.2008 4:28pm
elim:
why didn't mccain pick a pro-choice leaning to the left repub who has been in the senate for a long time as a running mate (snowe)? doesn't the above question answer itself? we love women in important positions as long as they are dried out or incapable of having children-I think the Dems are going to be bit in the rear on that wonderful position.
9.2.2008 4:30pm
theobromophile (www):
My other big peeve is this so-called "walking the walk" pro-life BS. The impression that conservatives give are that all pro-choicers would just go and abort if they had a sick/disabled child in utero, or that pro-choice unmarried pregnant women are off to the clinic. Walking-the-walk pro-choice style is simply acknowledging that people have choices.

I think you're reading far, far too much into it.

Pro-choicers always bring up the tough situations - teenage girl pregnant, mom with a demanding job and a bunch of kids who finds out that her baby has a genetic abnormality - and often point out that it's easy to be pro-life when you're wealthy, older, and not overwhelmed. As mentioned above, 80% of women who find out that they are carrying a baby with Down's Syndrome abort. Given that about 1/2 of women are pro-life, we know that even pro-life women struggle with this issue.

Modern pro-lifers do not want women to choose between the children they already have and the ones they are about to have, or their careers and their children, or their educations and their children. When the Palin family, in difficult circumstances, chooses life, they are "walking the walk."

The implication is not that pro-choicers don't walk the walk, but that many pro-lifers don't. I'm pro-life, and I've never been pregnant, so I've never HAD to make a difficult decision about my child and my morals, or my education. Most pro-lifers have never found out that their children have Down's Syndrome. Many pro-lifers were never pregnant at age 17 and wondering how they would manage to make a good life for themselves. The situations that test one's mettle are those - and people who walk the pro-life walk are the ones who face those problems and choose life.

In short: it's about us, not y'all. ;)
9.2.2008 4:34pm
Toby:
Private demonstrates, I guess, that he was an only child. As a member of a big family, one that actually considers babies a normal part of life, that picture seemed normal.
9.2.2008 4:35pm
dr:

The over-the-top emotionalism of their hysterical rumors and attacks speaks for itself.


From what I've seen, the "over-the-top emotionalism" is mostly glee, not fear. People on the left seem to regard this as a massive error in political judgment on McCain's part, and one that will likely hurt his electoral chances. Whether or not they're right remains to be seen -- it's never good to underestimate your opponents, and they may be doing just that. But the fact that people are engaging in a giant turkey shoot (with Palin and McCain serving the turkeys) is not necessarily a sign that "boy, them libruls sure is scurred."

It's also a consequence of McCain's "surprise factor" -- the reason it seems like people are scrambling to find bad things to say about Ms. Palin is that people are scrambling to find ANYTHING to say about Ms. Palin. If McCain had picked, say, Lieberman, everyone on all sides of the debate would have had talking points memorized before they hit "send" on the press release.
9.2.2008 4:36pm
Hoosier:
MartyA:
Hussein and the neo-communist pimps he works for are terrified!


Whuh?

loki--I haven't been watching SNL, so I'm not sure who would be the best to play Palin. But, hell, they could get a guest slot for John Goodman, right? I mean, that guy can do anything.
9.2.2008 4:37pm
Hoosier:
Take a look around you, gentlemen: There aren't many of you valuing the people who actually provide the care for your children.

I value my wife.
9.2.2008 4:40pm
Virginian:

Jindal hasn't really done much other than be both Republican and non-white, yet is worshiped (and I mean that term) by conservatives on the internet. Really, his most impressive trait is job-hopping.


Contrast this with Obama's oh-so-impressive stint as a community organizer (whatever the !@#$% that is).
9.2.2008 4:42pm
Mad Max:
Take a look around you, gentlemen: There aren't many of you valuing the people who actually provide the care for your children.

I know exactly what the value is of day care in northern Virginia, and believe me, it isn't cheap.
9.2.2008 4:42pm
Angus:
Thanks for the correction, Smokey, but Obama's 8 year stint as a state legislator is more than twice Jindal's longest stint in one job (3 years as a congressman). Heck, Obama has been in the Senate longer than Jindal has been in any one position.

Apart from that, being nonwhite in the Democratic party isn't all that unusual. Being nonwhite and Republican is, which is why Republicans tout their few minority officials with such vigor. Witness Michael Steele being given prime speaking slots in the 2004 and 2008 conventions and being pushed by various conservatives for the VP slot. His credentials? He was LtGov of Maryland (not elected separately in MD) and lost a U.S. Senate race in a landslide.
9.2.2008 4:44pm
metro1 (mail) (www):
liberal misogyny on display. it's out in the open - they're unabashed about it - and it's ugly.

the party that styles itself the champion of equal rights - the Democratic Party - is brazenly saying a mommy cannot do the work as a daddy. stunning.
9.2.2008 4:45pm
Annonymous Coward:
RonBailey:

"Previous rivals typically speak highly of him"

--Are these the rivals he had kicked off the ballot or the ones he drummed out of the race by having his minions open sealed divorce proceedings?

"Showed comparative restraint by keeping his family relatively small"

--I just threw up a little bit
9.2.2008 4:48pm
Anderson (mail):
Richard Riley really ended this thread about five comments in:

Let's say an interviewer asks her, "Governor, how do you see your job and your role as President McCain's Vice President if he's elected?" Do you think it will wash for Palin to answer along the lines you suggest here? ("Katie, under the Constitution I don't really have to do anything, and I don't really plan to!")

Exactly. If DB's reasoning is so valid, let's hear it from Palin and McCain.
9.2.2008 4:50pm
David Warner:
"Palin is already better prepared to step into the presidency, if necessary, than Truman was when he did, and she's a lot more intelligent than Truman."

Unlikely. Truman, like Reagan, was a smarter cookie than he let on.

The interesting, and perhaps fanciful (maybe 25% chance of being significant), parallel is with TR.

TR was able to repeatedly take on the Platt machine in NY because his mastery of the press created great support among the masses. Palin's background is in journalism, and she was doing something to get those 80% approval ratings that allowed her to take out the Murkowski machine.

Both were kicked upstairs to the VP slot at a young age, and were not taken seriously by those in the know.

TR spent a big chunk of his formative years in the Dakota Territory, Palin in the closest thing we have left. Both picked up a frontier habit of mind that has a deep resonance with the American Spirit (we're all immigrants, or descendants thereof, after all).

Finally, TR was the first member of his class (upper) to choose a political career in his time. Likewise, Palin is unique for her class (solid middle) among contemporary politicos.
9.2.2008 4:50pm
EIDE_Interface (mail):

anon101:
I'm a woman and a mother and I believe than women can both work and be mothers (in this case, be VP and a mother to 5). But it does seem odd that she would want to run for VP position in this particular time in her life -- with a few month old Down syndrome baby (babies are VERY demanding during the first 6 mo of their lives or so; let alone a baby w/Down Syndrome) and a pregnant teen (why would she want to put her daughter in the position that she is in now (under intense media scrutiny))?


Admittedly 2012 would have been better for the Palin family, but can American wait until then? 4 years of Obama will lead to American destruction.
9.2.2008 4:53pm
EIDE_Interface (mail):

loki13 (mail):
DB-

I'm still awaiting an answer. Is your critique that Palin could step in on day one and handle the Presidency, or that we don't need to worry because the VP doesn't do anything?


I'd rather have a green-Palin then Obama/Biden. At least she'll learn on the job and then do the right thing. You can count on Obama to accidently nuke Pakistan the first week.
9.2.2008 4:56pm
Hoosier:

"Showed comparative restraint by keeping his family relatively small"

--I just threw up a little bit


Yeah. That was odd.

And how do we know it wasn't Mrs. Obama who showed the restraint in question? Mrs. Hoosier and I stopped before five, and, as I recall, she had a lot to say about the matter.
9.2.2008 4:57pm
Mad Max:
Admittedly 2012 would have been better for the Palin family

Why? The kid's Down's Syndrome will be cured by then?
9.2.2008 4:59pm
loki13 (mail):
Hoosier,

Goodman, huh? At this point, there is absolutely nothing that could happen involving Palin that would surprise me.

(Actually, it would be kinda funny if they had the guest host, male or female, play her every week... saying, "None of you know the REAL Sarah Palin. Muahahahaha!)
9.2.2008 5:00pm
Hoosier:
David Warner:

That's an interesting parallel. Hadn;t occured to me that Palin had any similarities with TR. Aside from the glasses. Given my thoughts about TR, I now may have to develop some worries about Palin.

Although, as far as I know, she didn't try to use her pre-gubernatorial job to start a war. So she's one-up on Ted there in my book.

But I would also add to waht you said that Truman was better prepared than he's credited with being. I think there's a tendency to remember that he had only come into office in January of 1945, and that FDR died in April. But he was in the Senate prior to that, and had headed a significant wartime committee.

I'd have to say "advantage Truman" on that comparison.
9.2.2008 5:02pm
Hoosier:
loki--Apropos of your suggestion re: Palin:

Are you old enough to remember the ABC(?) knock-off of SNL, called "Fridays"? They had Mondale played by a black guy. The running gag was that every time he was introduced to someone in the White House, they'd do a double-take.

For those who don't rememebr the 1970s:

A)Lucky bastards!
and
B)There was a pervasive idea that Mondale had disappeared from the radar screen.
9.2.2008 5:06pm
EIDE_Interface (mail):
Magic karma-fu will lead McCain/Palin to a comeback victory!
9.2.2008 5:10pm
Perry:
It really is humorous how fast people can immediately stop caring about "experience". It was issue #1 front and center up until about 2 days ago and now the same people who really cared don't seem to care and the people who didn't care suddenly do.

If experience was the only thing that counted, Strom Thurmond would have become president. But clearly, thats not the case - because we had George W Bush as President.
9.2.2008 5:15pm
Anderson (mail):
Why? The kid's Down's Syndrome will be cured by then?

Via the magic of stem-cell research, no doubt.
9.2.2008 5:16pm
LIly (mail):
As a working mother, I find this line of thought to be vile. Women are their own worst enemies. I have known this since grade school. They'll tear each other to shreds.
9.2.2008 5:20pm
Not good.:
Anyone know how I can filter Bernstein's posts on my RSS subscription?
9.2.2008 5:22pm
Whadonna More:

theobromophile (www):

80% of women who find out that they are carrying a baby with Down's Syndrome abort. Given that about 1/2 of women are pro-life, we know that even pro-life women struggle with [are hypocrites on] this issue.
[...]
When the Palin family, in difficult circumstances, chooses life, they are "walking the walk."


Which is only notable because more than half of "pro-life" women appear to be hypocrites. Other interpretations are possible if pro-choice women (who generally favor birth control education and freedom) have more than their share of fetuses with Downs.
9.2.2008 5:24pm
krs:
Not good, this is how to do it on the regular blog. I don't know how that works with RSS..
9.2.2008 5:28pm
Doc W (mail):
Getting in on the fun a little late as usual. And, boy is this fun--kudos to McCain for that, if not much else.

I caught a snippet of Susan Estrich commenting today on FoxNews (random newschannel surfing choice, I assure you) that she thinks as many as a third of female Hillary voters might be in play for McCain. And although she disagrees with Palin on many issues, she's deeply offended by all the bashing of Palin for running for high office with the baby and other kids.

I suggest we should elect more politicians who are too weighed down with family responsibilities to put in long "work" days. In general, the less they accomplish the more safe we and our wallets are. Also, fewer pols who have spent virtually their entire lives inside the beltway (McCain and Biden) or grooming themselves for high office (his beautiful majesty). Instead, more normal folks. Sort of like Palin.
9.2.2008 5:29pm
loki13 (mail):
Perry,

That's because nobody really cared about experience. It was just something one side had, and (supposedly) the other side didn't. If Jindal had been running against H. Clinton, do you think experience would be the theme? Same with executive experience, or anything else. The issues don't matter anymore, just how they can be used. Look at the latest dustup:

Teenage pregnancy talking point- a bad, horrible, liberal disease that is the downfall of America. Those awful inner city parents are to blame!

New teenage pregnancy talking point- a beautiful blessing of god, and a sign of a healthy family coming together.

It's the other guy syndrome write large. If you do something, it's okay, if the other guy does it, it's deplorable.

(And yes, this is non-partisan. Both sides do it.)

(BTW, this isn't confined to Republicans.
9.2.2008 5:34pm
Smokey:
Sarah Palin is a State governor. That's more executive experience than the other candidates -- doubled and squared. That's a fact. And her constituents love her. What other governor has an 80% approval rating? That comes from giving the citizens what they want. Isn't that the idea?

No wonder the 'Rat Party is terrified: they do not want all women to succeed; they only want women who pass their liberal litmus tests to succeed. They hate all the rest -- and it shows.

Gov. Palin cleaned house on members of her own party. What current governor has done that, and to that extent? Name one.

Sarah Palin has taken on plenty of challenges, and she has achieved everything she set out to do. What has the corrupt Joe Biden done, except lay back in the Senate for 36 years?

I'd prefer Palin to be the candidate for President, and for McCain to be the VP. But either one of them shows in stark contrast that Odumbo is a pathetic empty suit.

"Community activist"??

heh. Get real.
9.2.2008 5:36pm
Clastrenster:
What I hate most about this whole Palin scenario is that it feels like McCain basically threw the election. I've always had a good feel about his on-the-surface politics (even when, like with campaign reform, they completely reverse his earlier positions). For the first time, though, it's like he went SO maverick that he lashed out against himself, joining up with someone that really doesn't share much of his own philosophy, but who plays well to a particular sector of Christian social interventionists-- but the choice was so outlandish that it seems like a higher order commentary on why making "politically calculated" decisions like this are a bad idea. Other than that, I'm sure Gov. Palin would make a fine VP. But the relentless discussion is really sickening (and there's far more repetitive bolstering of the discussion by conservative-leaning media/discussion outlets that makes sense... unless there's a conspiracy afoot after all!). Anyhow, it's way past 4:20, if you get my waft.
9.2.2008 5:37pm
Smokey:
Hoosier:
I'd have to say "advantage Truman" on that comparison.
And he was a haberdasher, too!
9.2.2008 5:39pm
PersonFromPorlock:
EIDE_Interface (mail):

You can count on Obama to accidently nuke Pakistan the first week.

I doubt it. Australia, now....
9.2.2008 5:44pm
Smokey:
Whadonna More:
"80% of women who find out that they are carrying a baby with Down's Syndrome abort." Which is only notable because more than half of "pro-life" women appear to be hypocrites.
Math isn't your strong suit, is it? You're assuming that all women decide to have the babies they're carrying tested. In fact, many religious moms don't. Most of that 80% could be libs. You don't know, do you?
9.2.2008 5:46pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
db:

Obama has two small children. Much harder to be a decent dad while being president than to be a decent mom while being veep.


Obama has this many children with Down syndrome: zero. Obama has this many children who are currently less than six months old: zero. Obama has this many children who are pregnant: zero.

Also, taking care of five kids is harder than taking care of two. Really!

One other factor that's minor (compared with the above) but still worth mentioning. The distance from Wasilla to DC is 6 times greater than the distance from Chicago to DC. Obama's kids can live with dad and still see their old friends and relatives quite frequently. Not so for Palin. Flying 4244 miles (one way) takes a long time, even when your mom is the VP.
9.2.2008 5:49pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
syd:

How many opportunities do you think she'll have [to be VP]?


You're suggesting that this is her last chance to run for VP. Sorry, but that's silly. This is McCain's last chance, but it's not Palin's last chance. She's young. If she's half as good as y'all say, she could have said no this time around and still look forward to plenty of other chances to run for high office, when her kids are older.
9.2.2008 5:49pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
pluribus:

I missed the part where she "explicitly recommended herself to us on the basis of these family judgments."


Ralph Reed said this (regarding her decision to not abort Trig): "It is almost impossible to exaggerate how important that is to the conservative faith community." It's not hard to find other statements like that.

Reed and others want us to look at her family life, except when they don't want us to, and then they whine about 'privacy.'
9.2.2008 5:49pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
drm:

full-time professional child-care assistance


Lots of people are talking about how her kids are going to get great child care from professionals. Sorry, but that only goes so far. A certain amount of direct parenting is required. Period. I see Palin overlooking this, and putting her career before her kids. I would condemn any person who made the decisions she made, regardless of gender and regardless of political affiliation. I see a number of decisions that strike me as poor parenting. I won't repeat them because I explained them here.

Bristol's pregnancy is a big red flag that these kids need more direct parenting.
9.2.2008 5:49pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
paul:

It is also quite telling that Obama supporters perceive the need to defend Obama's qualification against the qualifications of McCain's VP choice.


It is quite telling that you seem to not realize that you're commenting about a person who was responding to a question that specifically asked someone to "defend Obama's qualification against the qualifications of McCain's VP choice."
9.2.2008 5:49pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
smokey:

Jimmy Carter recently referring to Obama as "that colored boy" [and yes, Carter said "boy."]


This isn't the first time that you've made a claim that is clearly, blatantly false. Carter said "that colored boy?" Really? Show us the quote.

Carter did say "boy," because he was talking about Obama's boyhood. Duh.
9.2.2008 5:49pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
bowen:

You want an unabashed mercenary job jumper, look to Obama.


Do you have any idea what the word "mercenary" means? If you did, you wouldn't claim that an HLR president working as a community organizer is "mercenary."
9.2.2008 5:49pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
smokey:

Sarah Palin has taken on plenty of challenges, and she has achieved everything she set out to do.


Are you sure? Last I heard, Wooten is still a trooper.

Also, I have a feeling that one of her goals was to raise kids who knew how to stay not pregnant until they were out of high school. And if this wasn't one of her goals, it should have been.
9.2.2008 5:50pm
Hoosier:
Also, I have a feeling that one of her goals was to raise kids who knew how to stay not pregnant until they were out of high school. And if this wasn't one of her goals, it should have been.

Hack.
9.2.2008 5:53pm
Smokey:
I would feed the troll if I didn't know any better. But it was nice when he was on his long, enforced "time out," wasn't it?
9.2.2008 5:53pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
New teenage pregnancy talking point- a beautiful blessing of god, and a sign of a healthy family coming together.
Speaking of "talking points," how about the buzzword "teenage pregnancy"?

I can't find evidence of when Bristol's birthday is at the moment, but based upon some articles listing her age as 16 and others listing it as 17, we can narrow down when it would be, and if she's 5 months pregnant, we can say that there's a 50/50 chance that when this child is born, she'll be 18.

Now, admittedly, 18 is still literally a "teenager." But an 18-year old is also an adult, not a child. Not quite like getting pregnant at 14, with no father for the child, and living off welfare.
9.2.2008 6:02pm
elim:
JBG, parenting expert to the downtrodden. Do you realize how silly your little lectures sound to someone who actually has kids? While you might claim differently here, I can't imagine you have actually had the heartache of raising real live children given the stupid statements you make.
9.2.2008 6:03pm
Hoosier:
New teenage pregnancy talking point- a beautiful blessing of god, and a sign of a healthy family coming together.

I can't imagine anyone thinks the child is not a "blessing from God." Except me, because I'm agnostic. As to the healthy family coming together: That seems to be what they have done.
9.2.2008 6:07pm
loki13 (mail):
Smokey,

You're confused. Again. That was Mahan Atma (again).

Facts never stopped you, though. Like the colored buy bit. Wow, you and reality need to be introduced sometime.
9.2.2008 6:07pm
Clastrenster:
"Not quite like getting pregnant at 14, with no father for the child, and living off welfare."

Now that's the kind of experience I can get behind!
9.2.2008 6:07pm
Hoosier:
Clastrenster:
"Not quite like getting pregnant at 14, with no father for the child, and living off welfare."

Now that's the kind of experience I can get behind!


I aughted at this, though I frankly have no idea what it means.

Must be time for me to go home--and do some "direct parenting" for the Hoosierkids.
9.2.2008 6:09pm
Kirk:
Obama ... is a lot better than his party or their positions.
Good grief, Jon, did you miss the whole Mandatory Voluntarism scuffle here?
9.2.2008 6:10pm
Hoosier:
loki--I read the Carter quote, and don't recall "colored." Now, I do remember Caretr's mom using that term. I think that was just generational.

I'm not even slightly a Carter fan. But I'd have trouble believing that he is a racist.
9.2.2008 6:12pm
MarkField (mail):

Speaking of "talking points," how about the buzzword "teenage pregnancy"?


Remind me, David: which side of the political divide popularized this term and used it to attack the other?
9.2.2008 6:14pm
Virginian:

I would feed the troll if I didn't know any better. But it was nice when he was on his long, enforced "time out," wasn't it?


I appreciate that he(?) enters a whole bunch of posts all in a row. Makes it easier to scroll past them.
9.2.2008 6:21pm
elim:
child a blessing from god and teenage pregnancy being a good thing? hard to credit someone disagreeing with the former and can't imagine anyone arguing that teen pregnancy is a smart move. however, once the act is done, it would seem that you make the best of it given your values. I guess she could have been thrown from the house, branded with a Scarlet Letter (in a way, she has been by the media) or simply humiliated as a harlot (again, she has been by the media). .
9.2.2008 6:23pm
William D. Tanksley, Jr:
It really is humorous how fast people can immediately stop caring about "experience". It was issue #1 front and center up until about 2 days ago and now the same people who really cared don't seem to care and the people who didn't care suddenly do.


Actually, I think it was issue #1 up until Obama nominated Biden. That, to me, indicates that Obama takes experience seriously and took positive action to remedy his own deficit. This is (you'll recall) the same type of action GWBush took when challenged on the same grounds.

This isn't to say that Obama removed that as an issue, it's just that his action reduced the magnitude of the issue. Now all he has to do is not bring the issue up again himself, and it won't be possible to use it against him in any convincing way.
9.2.2008 6:24pm
Ani Onymous (mail):
David, can you explain what this post is about? You say, "all Palin has to do is campaign until the first week in November. After that, she can spend all the time she wishes with her family." You then describe the "only constitutional role the vice-president has", and conclude, "unless the vice-president takes on role not constitutionally assigned to her * * * it's a far less demanding job than being governor of Alaska."

Basically, why are the CONSTITUTIONAL roles of the Veep the only relevant ones? Are you suggesting that taking on statutorily assigned roles, or roles assumed as a matter of political practice, is inappropriate, because they are roles "not constitutionally assigned to her"? You are aware, certainly, of recent suggestions that the Veep belongs to the legislative branch; I suppose you might be saying something about the roles that are extra-constitutionally, and perhaps unconstitutionally, thrust on the office.

If not, why do we care about how the Constitution describes the role, if we know in fact and in law that it amounts to something more? If you include these extra functions, would you still maintain that it's a far less demanding job than being Governor of Alaska?

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone is limiting their objection to the relative demands of the two jobs. Some who object to Palin probably think she shouldn't keep being Governor, either, beyond serving out her term. Others aren't so much worried about the relative demands of the job, but rather the fact that a screwup as Veep has repercussions outside Alaska.
9.2.2008 6:26pm
Federal Dog:
People do not gin up outlandish rumors out of "glee." That level of desperate smear is born of obvious and palpable fear. No one confident of his political position needs to fabricate wild stories that Palin refused prenatal care, thus causing Downs Syndrome, or was wearing a "pregnancy suit" to fake a pregnancy to cover up for her daughter.

If Palin were actually a liability, McCain's adversaries would simply smile all the way to the polls. Instead, they are in meltdown mode.
9.2.2008 6:28pm
Clastrenster:
Federal Dog is right. Political parties never seize on their opponents glaring mis-steps, especially not in an election cycle when cooler heads make voter's beds!
9.2.2008 6:35pm
dr:

People do not gin up outlandish rumors out of "glee." That level of desperate smear is born of obvious and palpable fear.


kind of like outlandish rumors of faked birth certificates and secret muslims?

just because partisan hacks on the left think that palin was a monumentally bad decision by mccain doesn't mean that they're smart enough to simply smile all the way to the polls. they should do exactly that, but they're not.

just like partisan hacks on the right are not smart enough to leave the experience issue aside now and find other, more solid ground to stand on. they should do exactly that, but look all around you. they're clearly not.

partisan hacks are partisan hacks because they're too stupid to be anything else. that doesn't mean that them libruls is afraid of sarah palin.

again. maybe they should be. but i don't believe that they are.
9.2.2008 6:35pm
loki13 (mail):
Hoosier,

Carter said "black boy". Which could be offensive, except he was talking about Obama when he was a child, you know, male child, there's a word for that . . . oh, yeah, boy!

Ergo black boy. Smokey has already been schooled on this several times. I don't even know how he got to "colored". Same way he gets to the Caliphate, I guess.
9.2.2008 6:43pm
Clastrenster:

"it's a far less demanding job than being governor of Alaska."

That seems like the final nail in the experience-coffin, aside from the geographic proximity of Alaska to Nunyamo and Dezhnevo.
9.2.2008 7:00pm
Christopher Cooke (mail):
Given his concern for the poor state of White House child care, I recommend Sacrastro to serve as the White House (Blair house?) nanny of the Palin kids if Mrs. Palin becomes the VP. He or she is just the person we need to set that house in order.
9.2.2008 7:00pm
AKD:

it's worth noting that she went back to work when her baby was 3 days old.


It's worth noting she went in to work when her baby was 3 days old, with her baby, and with her husband. Not that it would matter much either way. Obviously the husband or another family member could handle the babe at home while she went in to sign a bill. Just tired of the idiotic repetition of facts derived from e-mail forwards being posted here.
9.2.2008 7:01pm
Hoosier:
Loki--thanks. I thought I remebered the an inoffensive quote for Carter.

Here's the NEW NARRATIVE for Palin:

She held a series of unimportant positions in a tiny town and a tiny state that gave her no significant executive preparation, and yet required so much of her time that she neglected her children.

Do I have that right?

(Why is it that Obama is being so much more decent regarding this "issue" than are his supporters on VC?)
9.2.2008 7:02pm
Hoosier:
"Now all he has to do is not bring the issue up again himself, and it won't be possible to use it against him in any convincing way."

I don't see this as a given. He's still on the top of his ticket, and still more or less equal in experience to Palin.

Much more likely is that McCain thinks he's gotten as much as he can out of this issue. Especially given how little it helped Hillary. So it may not be a significant part of the campaign. (But he'd be foolish not to keep using the Clinton/Clinton/Dodd/Biden video on this matter in key states.)
9.2.2008 7:05pm
Hoosier:
"from Carter." (6:02)

Obama WAS a boy when he was a boy. And he IS black. I don't think that makes Carter a racist. (Although I have to admit I have trouble every time I refer to my 10 year old son's friend four doors down as a "boy." He's black. He's nine. But it just sounds like I'm denigrating him when I say it. Language sucks!)
9.2.2008 7:08pm
Syd Henderson (mail):

jukeboxgrad (mail):
syd:

You're suggesting that this is her last chance to run for VP.


Running for VP depends on the presidential nominee choosing you, not you running for the nomination. She struck it lucky this time. The next nominee probably will be looking for something other than a female governor of a state with three electoral votes.

Now if she's interested in running for President, she'll have several other opportunities.
9.2.2008 7:09pm
Hoosier:
Syd Henderson:
Agreed. There is not much history of someone being chosen for veep a second time after a loss the first time.
9.2.2008 7:11pm
loki13 (mail):
Hoosier,

Your right. We have a pick of narratives:

1. Palin had a job that required no skill AT ALL, that she did poorly at even though it didn't require any work, and still neglected her children.

OR

2. Palin had the best job preparation ever, with *executive experience* with two international borders, out there commanding the national guard against the Russians, refusing all federal aid while still learning all about the Federal Govt., before taking on the entire corrupt state GOP and running them out of the state, while raising the best-darn family ever.

There is no option 3. Remember, in our political world, everything is permitted, nothing is true.
9.2.2008 7:21pm
PC:
There is no option 3. Remember, in our political world, everything is permitted, nothing is true.


Which of those two narratives would ties to Jack Abramoff fit in? Mmmmmaverick.
9.2.2008 7:26pm
Randy R. (mail):
metro1: "the party that styles itself the champion of equal rights - the Democratic Party - is brazenly saying a mommy cannot do the work as a daddy. stunning."

Apparently, you forgot that it was the Democratic party that nominated the first woman as VP back in 1984. I believe they were saying back then that a woman can do the same job as men.
9.2.2008 7:33pm
Randy R. (mail):
Just curious : How many more women are elected to office as Dems rather than Repubs?

Seems that no matter how you slice it, the Dems have quite a few elected females. Tell us how that is sexist, please.
9.2.2008 7:37pm
Uthaw:
(Why is it that Obama is being so much more decent regarding this "issue" than are his supporters on VC?)

All part of the ancient political tradition of having your lackeys and shills do the dirty work while you stay above it all, and keep your hands clean. Obambi is a gentle, Christ-like figure, the messenger of Hope and Change, how can he possibly control what his minions do?
9.2.2008 7:45pm
Dan Weber (www):
Also, a huge plus, I believe she's humble enough to ask questions instead of thinking she has all the answers.

Holy crap. Are we supposed to buy this?

This was the line of reasoning about why we weren't supposed to worry about Bush. Because, y'know, he's humble enough to hire good advisers and he'll actually listen to them, unlike that self-important Gore.

We all remember that, right? We're not going to fall for it again, right?

Now, it's fine if Palin isn't ready right now to lead the country; she's got 2 months to the election, and 2 more to the inauguration, so she can spend all her time studying and getting ready. Because that is actually her entire job; to wait in the wings.
9.2.2008 7:49pm
William D. Tanksley, Jr:
Randy, this charge of sexism isn't based on counting heads at all; it's based on the fact that Dems are saying things in order to defeat a Republican woman that they call "sexist" when they hear them from Dr. Laura.

No doubt some of you are merely trying to call some of us repubs on our hypocrisy. That's cool, and such an accusation should be responded to; but it's very clear that some of you are trying to attack Palin on those grounds, and as such fall to your own ammo.

I believe that the charge of hypocrisy is reasonable, but my position is nuanced enough to entirely avoid it. A mother should have her children and spouse as her first priority, but as long as they're taken care of, she should feel free to take on as many other challenges as she can handle. (The same holds for a father.)
9.2.2008 7:51pm
AKD:
Obama has chosen to stay above the fray and show herrespect by referring to her as a small-town mayor of someplace called "Wasilly."
9.2.2008 7:52pm
Suzy (mail):
[quote]Please play the "explicit" part back for me.[/quote] She has frequently discussed her family and her decisions about having her fifth child in media interviews. Even her decision to continue giving a speech after her water broke in that pregnancy has been advanced as a mark of her gritty character. When you give such details to the media as part of an effort to promote yourself, all I'm saying is that it's not unreasonable for people to judge them. I.e. you can't put personal facts out there and then demand that they be received only as positive signs.

Personally, though, I'm not interested in her family life. Also, I am not a Democrat! I am quite disappointed that McCain did not pick someone like Hutchison, if he was determined to make the "affirmative action" choice, because she brings some excellent qualities to the table. I don't agree with her on everything, but she seems ready to step into the job of president and she commands respect.

The only thing I like about Palin so far is that she would obviously be a second amendment supporter, and she has charisma. Otherwise, she seems like a small-time politician who enjoys throwing her weight around in office to settle personal scores. We're told she was a reformer, but then find out she's the head of Stevens' 527. We're told she had integrity, but then she tried to get various people fired for petty reasons, and even wanted to censor the library books. She's an extremist about abortion, and has ideas about sex ed and creationism that I find suspicious. Her public remarks so far make her seem like a real featherweight on any foreign policy issues. I'm open minded, but so far what is to like? Pro-gun. What else?
9.2.2008 7:53pm
William D. Tanksley, Jr:
We asked for a specific example of how Palin "asked for it" by using her family members as proof of her own character. You gave us one specific example:

"Even her decision to continue giving a speech after her water broke in that pregnancy has been advanced as a mark of her gritty character."

This is useless to you, though. She's advancing HER action as an indicator of her own gritty character. What did "her family" have to do with her decision to keep speaking? How is she pulling her family into anything by talking about this?
9.2.2008 8:03pm
Hoosier:
Randy R:

"Apparently, you forgot that it was the Democratic party that nominated the first woman as VP back in 1984. I believe they were saying back then that a woman can do the same job as men."

But her youngest was about 18 at that time. Obama has two youngsters, but the issue is--it appears--that the *female* candidate with young children is not a fit parent. So why distinguish between the two, if not for reasons of gender? (Ruling out partisanship as an explanation, of course.)
9.2.2008 8:06pm
Uthaw:
Apparently, you forgot that it was the Democratic party that nominated the first woman as VP back in 1984. I believe they were saying back then that a woman can do the same job as men.

Seems that no matter how you slice it, the Dems have quite a few elected females. Tell us how that is sexist, please.


The Democrats are proving now that their support for women candidates is purely a matter of expediency, not principle. When the female candidate is a Democrat, it's "yaay women, you can do anything!" When the female candidate is a Republican, it's "back to the kitchen, iron my shirts, you should be barefoot and pregnant!"

There is a word for this... a word the Democrats reaaaally like... they seem to think it is a gigantic sin... what is it... oh yeah, it's hypocrisy.
9.2.2008 8:08pm
AKD:

We're told she was a reformer, but then find out she's the head of Stevens' 527.
'

So now she was the head of Stevens' 527, eh?
9.2.2008 8:34pm
pluribus:
I wrote:

Please play the "explicit" part back for me.

Suzy answered:

She has frequently discussed her family and her decisions about having her fifth child in media interviews. Even her decision to continue giving a speech after her water broke in that pregnancy has been advanced as a mark of her gritty character. When you give such details to the media as part of an effort to promote yourself, all I'm saying is that it's not unreasonable for people to judge them.

Well, that is hardly "explicit." More than anything else, it is inferences you are drawing. So far, I am not inclined to vote for Palin, but I do believe that the almost hysterical criticisms we are now hearing about her family are wide of the mark, and very likely to evoke sympathy for her. When criticism is unfair, people sense it, and become sympathetic to the victim of the unfairness. She said she opposes abortion and refused to have an abortion even when she learned that her baby would be Down symdrome. Hypocritical? No, quite consistent. She said she opposes abortion and, when her daughter became pregnant, she announced her daughter would give birth and marry the father. Hypocritical? No, quite consistent.I'm with Obama on this. Criticisms of a candidate's family are out of bounds, and especially their kids.
9.2.2008 10:13pm
DeezRightWingNutz:
Whadonna More:

As someone else pointed out, lots of people who don't consider abortion an option don't get the fetus tested for Down's. When the option was presented to us, we wanted to know what good the results would be. Basically, we could use the information to decide whether to abort. Since that wasn't going to happen, we didn't have the test done.
9.2.2008 11:04pm
DeezRightWingNutz:

Obama WAS a boy when he was a boy. And he IS black. I don't think that makes Carter a racist. (Although I have to admit I have trouble every time I refer to my 10 year old son's friend four doors down as a "boy." He's black. He's nine. But it just sounds like I'm denigrating him when I say it. Language sucks!)


Easy problem to solve. If you don't want to sound like a racist, just say "Son, you can't play with the black children anymore. I won't allow it."
9.2.2008 11:06pm
Hoosier:
Well of COURSE! Gee, what was I thinking?
9.2.2008 11:12pm
Dan M.:
When Sarah Palin's husband went back to work, they announced that he was going back to work for the oil company because they needed the money, but that he would not be working in an executive position so that there would be no conflict of interest (I think her deal with TransCanada as opposed to BP will attest to that).

Sarah Palin has said that her extended family has helped her raise her children. Her parents and her in-laws both live in her hometown. She's also said that her teenage children are an asset in helping her raise her younger children. I trust her to make her own decisions about her family.
9.2.2008 11:37pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
On the question of whether a significant number of Hillary supporters will vote for Palin (and hold their nose while having to also vote for McCain), that number is much greater then people might think. Here in Austin I am surrounded by a lot of them I interact with frequently. All they are talking about is Palin, and they like her, even if they disagree with her on abortion, which it seems has so far only been a moral position and not a legislative one. A lot of them had misgivings about Clinton, and see Palin as more admirable. They are also becoming increasingly pissed off by the attacks on her, which they find lacking in merit.

As for the critical comments her on Bobby Jindal, I have been following his career, as I have Palin's, and the more I learn the more I like. The only thing I find wrong with Jindal is is that he is not the governor of Texas. The people of Louisiana, long known for electing corrupt and incompetent politicians, finally wised up when they elected Bobby, and we can see that in the way he has been handling the hurricane.
9.3.2008 12:07am
AKD:

DeezRightWingNutz:

As someone else pointed out, lots of people who don't consider abortion an option don't get the fetus tested for Down's. When the option was presented to us, we wanted to know what good the results would be. Basically, we could use the information to decide whether to abort. Since that wasn't going to happen, we didn't have the test done.




The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends Down syndrome screening for all pregnant women, regardless of their age.
9.3.2008 12:15am
Dan M.:
The suggestion that the 80% statistic about Down syndrome proves that pro-life women are hypocrites is, in my opinion, unfounded.

That statistic is that 80% of women who find out that their child will have Down syndrome choose to abort. However, to apply that statistic to the general population of women you have to assume that all women get genetic testing. Especially you'd have to assume the pro-life women, who hypothetically would not be swayed by such a test, would choose to forgo the testing because it wouldn't affect their decision.

I know of one woman who was told that each of her first 2 children would be born with Down Syndrome and it was wrong both times and she finally decided to just not have the test done at all for her 3rd child and all three children are perfectly fine.
9.3.2008 12:17am
Dan M.:
Yes, of course doctors will recommend just about any screening that makes them money and won't harm the mother. Except that some woman might get a false positive for each of her first two children, and had she been inclined differently could have aborted a perfectly healthy and intelligent boy and girl when both pregnancies were planned.
9.3.2008 12:21am
Suzy (mail):
I think maybe my original post has been misread. In no way did I say it was okay to attack her family! Not at all! I said that when she puts out her own choices about her family as evidence of her good character and judgment, then she should not be shocked if people do judge those choices, and perhaps differently than she would have liked. That's all. So the story of flying cross country with amniotic fluid leaking, eight months into a high-risk pregnancy is being put out there as evidence of her grit or something. It should not come as a shock when others find that rather reckless and surprising behavior. Normally this would be none of my business and I would never even hear of it, but she was the one advertising the information to a newspaper. This has nothing to do with criticizing her family.

I think it's great that she has supporter her daughter's pregnancy. It makes me think highly of both of them. However, the only reason I am forming that positive judgment is that she intentionally put this info out there in hopes that it would indeed be judged positively. Why is this okay when I have a positive reaction, but not okay if others have a negative reaction of her judgment? One can't have it both ways. None of this makes it okay to judge her family members; we're just talking about things she has put forward specifically as related to her own judgment.
9.3.2008 12:54am
theobromophile (www):
Which is only notable because more than half of "pro-life" women appear to be hypocrites. Other interpretations are possible if pro-choice women (who generally favor birth control education and freedom) have more than their share of fetuses with Downs.

As per above, not necessarily. Certainly, some percentage of pro-life women abort Down's babies. Then again, given that those who are pro-choice tend to lean left and support such things as the ADA, it could also be deemed hypocritical of them to have abortions, since they are engaging in eugenics and discriminating against the disabled.

(Shrug) Perhaps, as those who lean left give birth later in life, and that is correlated with an increased risk of Down's, more liberals have babies who are diagnosed. Maybe strongly pro-life women don't want the amniocentesis. Maybe the women themselves want to keep the baby, but are pressured by their husbands, parents, friends, and doctors - the people whose support they will desperately need if they are to raise a special-needs child - to get abortions.

Either way, I really would not like to spend my time playing the game of "who is a bigger hypocrite" or the like. Suffice to say, Sarah Palin did well by the anti-discrimination crowd, the pro-life crowd, and the working-moms crowd when she bucked the trend and gave birth to her special-needs baby while running a state. Whether or not you agree with Palin's policies or think she is a good candidate to be the VP, what she did is really cool. I hope that she'll become an advocate for special-needs babies (and toddler and kids and teenagers...), having an intimate knowledge of the problems they face, and, of course, the well-intentioned but morally vacuous push to get women to abort their "imperfect" children.

/pro-life partisan hackery
9.3.2008 1:19am
Angus:
Hey, more power to ya on liking Bobby Jindal. He's quite personable. Now if he'd only actually do some of the jobs he was chosen to do without spending most of his time angling for the next prominent position. He's already been called out by his supporters for taking credit for things he initially opposed. (Such as the recent tax cuts, and mental health services he said were woeful and needed to be improved when he was the one that bascially eliminated them in the first place in the late 1990s.)

Maybe he'll change his stripes and actually stick with the Governor's chair for more than 2 years now that his Veep chances are over. Me, I see him as a Republican Obama. Talks a great game, but when you look closely the content is surprisingly thin. (Yes, I think that about Obama and will vote for him anyways because I find too many of the current GOP stances repugnant)
9.3.2008 1:28am
Julian S. (mail):
I'm waiting for the basketball match-up between Palin and Obama. Hell, if we can't get one going in real life (or should I say political life - too little intersection between the two to get them confused) then we should at least get a decent Saturday Night Live skit out of it.
9.3.2008 1:40am
William D. Tanksley, Jr:
However, the only reason I am forming that positive judgment is that she intentionally put this info out there in hopes that it would indeed be judged positively.


Wait, what? She put that out there on purpose? What did I miss? I thought this "leaked." It's certainly not something that was initially announced, and wasn't announced by her.

So what do you mean?
9.3.2008 1:46am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
hoosier:

hack


Still no luck finding that page number?

She held a series of unimportant positions in a tiny town and a tiny state that gave her no significant executive preparation, and yet required so much of her time that she neglected her children.


As far as I can tell, both parents have been out of the house, on more-or-less a full-time basis, for quite a few years. With (ultimately) five kids at home. That looks to me like an invitation for trouble. And from the perspective of the direct attention the kids aren't getting, it makes no difference if the parents are flipping burgers or if the parents are getting "significant executive preparation." From the perspective of the kids, there's a parenting vacuum, either way.

So yes, even though she held relatively "unimportant positions," her jobs still required her to be away from her kids. And it looks like Todd made the same choice. If he was a full-time stay-at-home dad, my analysis would be very different.

There is not much history of someone being chosen for veep a second time after a loss the first time.


I think you're misunderstanding the scenario that was presented (and maybe syd misunderstood me too). I was not suggesting that she would lose this time, and then have another run at VP. My point is that she could have said no to McCain (for the sake of her kids), and still look forward to a VP or POTUS shot later in her career, when her kids are bigger. That is, if she's as good as you folks claim she is.

Then again, maybe she doesn't have that much confidence in her own future path through Alaska (because of Troopergate or other reasons), and therefore thinks of this as a once-in-a-lifetime chance. Maybe that got her thinking that Bristol could handle two infants for a while.

Obama has two youngsters, but the issue is--it appears--that the *female* candidate with young children is not a fit parent. So why distinguish between the two, if not for reasons of gender?


There are some differences that are so obvious they should not need to be enumerated. But I did already enumerate them, here.
9.3.2008 2:18am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
smokey:

it was nice when he was on his long, enforced "time out"


You have a long track record of making statements that are totally divorced from reality. This is another one. There has never been any kind of "time out." I think you're having difficulty sorting out the difference between fantasy and reality. I think someone else pointed this out, too.
9.3.2008 2:18am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
virg:

I appreciate that he(?) enters a whole bunch of posts all in a row. Makes it easier to scroll past them.


I appreciate that you noticed. There are multiple reasons I do it that way, but you've identified one of the reasons. It's easier for people who want to read my posts, and it's easier for people who don't, and I'm perfectly happy to oblige both groups.
9.3.2008 2:18am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
elim:

can't imagine anyone arguing that teen pregnancy is a smart move. however, once the act is done, it would seem that you make the best of it given your values


I have respect for people who make the best of a bad situation, but I have even more respect for people who use judgment and maturity to avoid the bad situation to begin with.

This distinction applies to people who decide to have another child even though they probably shouldn't (for several reasons, including the fact that the number of parents available to stay home with the kids appears to be zero).

This also applies to people who rely on the idea of teaching their kids abstinence, even though the parents seem to not be around the house enough to keep an eye on whether or not the message is sinking in.

And this concept, regarding how it's better to avoid a bad situation entirely, also applies to the question of the war. The people who claim that the surge reflects good judgment are glossing over the fact that it would have been much better to avoid the war entirely.
9.3.2008 2:18am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
akd:

Obviously the husband or another family member could handle the babe at home while she went in to sign a bill


Why are you implying that she just "went in to sign a bill?" She didn't. She went back to work:

Palin was back at work Monday in Anchorage, holding a meeting on the proposed natural gas pipeline three days after giving birth to her fifth child. … Palin said she won't take maternity leave but will go with Trig to doctor's visits, physical therapy, whatever he needs. She's breast feeding and plans to bring Trig to work with her, just as she did with Piper.


The "plans to bring Trig to work with her" part sounds nice, but I don't see how that works. If someone has more facts about this, that would be interesting to know.

Just tired of the idiotic repetition of facts derived from e-mail forwards being posted here.


Just tired of people idiotically challenging facts that can be easily verified with a ten-second google.
9.3.2008 2:18am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
syd:

Running for VP depends on the presidential nominee choosing you, not you running for the nomination. She struck it lucky this time.


Really? "She struck it lucky this time?" I thought she was picked because she's a stellar talent.

If she really is as wonderful as the GOP claims, then she shouldn't have to rely on being "lucky" to get picked next time around. She should be at the top of everyone's list, because she's so obviously a strong candidate.
9.3.2008 2:19am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
metro:

the party that styles itself the champion of equal rights - the Democratic Party - is brazenly saying a mommy cannot do the work as a daddy


Wrong. What I'm saying has almost nothing to do with gender (I say 'almost' because I think a mom should be present for the first few months). It's not that "a mommy cannot do the work as a daddy." It's that both parents have a duty to make sure the kids are getting proper care. That doesn't mean mommy has to be home, but it means someone has to be home. At least a lot of the time, for the ages when the kids are most in need of attention. And especially if you think you can get away with having a big family. That's why my analysis would be different if Todd was home. But it seems pretty clear that he's not.
9.3.2008 2:19am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
will:

A mother should have her children and spouse as her first priority, but as long as they're taken care of, she should feel free to take on as many other challenges as she can handle. (The same holds for a father.)


I think that's a nice summary of what I'm trying to say.

She's advancing HER action as an indicator of her own gritty character. What did "her family" have to do with her decision to keep speaking? How is she pulling her family into anything by talking about this?


I'm not evaluating "her family." I'm evaluating her decisions as a parent. As Suzy correctly said, Palin has invited us to pay attention to those decisions.
9.3.2008 2:19am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
uthaw:

When the female candidate is a Republican, it's "back to the kitchen, iron my shirts, you should be barefoot and pregnant!"


Wrong. I would be perfectly happy to know that Todd is at home. Do you realize there are households that run that way? Trouble is, he's not.
9.3.2008 2:19am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
plur:

Criticisms of a candidate's family are out of bounds, and especially their kids.


I'm not criticizing her family or her kids. I'm criticizing her. She invited us to look at choices she made as a parent. When I look at that whole picture, I don't like what I see. She wants us to just focus narrowly on certain pieces of the picture, especially her decisions to reject abortion. But it doesn't work that way. If she wants me to applaud her for rejecting abortion (and obviously she does), it's fair for me to consider the choices she made that led to that issue even coming up (in both pregnancies).

It really is very much like McCain seeking applause for promoting the surge. If he wants to do that, it makes sense for me to realize that if not for him and his ilk, the war could have been avoided entirely.

Likewise, it's fair to consider how both of those pregnancies could have been avoided entirely. And when I refer to Bristol's pregnancy, I don't mean what she could have done to avoid it. I mean what her parents could have done to avoid it.
9.3.2008 2:19am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
dan:

She's also said that her teenage children are an asset in helping her raise her younger children


I see too many indications that Bristol is a surrogate mom, and I don't like it.

I trust her to make her own decisions about her family.


That would be my default position. But Palin has decided to promote herself (in part) on the basis of her behavior as a parent, which means that it makes sense for me to take a good look at her behavior as a parent.
9.3.2008 2:19am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
suzy:

when she puts out her own choices about her family as evidence of her good character and judgment, then she should not be shocked if people do judge those choices, and perhaps differently than she would have liked


Thank you for saying it more clearly than I could.
9.3.2008 2:20am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
will:

She put that out there on purpose?


You're talking about how she got on the plane despite being in early stages of labor. The article describing that is here. Yes, it seems that Palin herself is the main source for the most important details in the story.

I don't think anyone was holding a gun to her head demanding that she discuss personal details about her pregnancy.

And there are other examples, where her and her supporters point to Trig as evidence of her pro-life stance. And now Bristol's pregnancy is being presented the same way. It's her choice to raise the subject, and therefore it's fair to discuss the subject fully.

It would be a different story if she kept her kids out of the spotlight. And why do we even need to know about Trig's condition? The campaign seems overly eager to bring it up, to be able to say 'look at who he is, and aren't we wonderful because we didn't abort him.'

Using him to present that message is a choice she's making, and it's a choice I don't like. Please note that three days after Trig's birth, they were showing him to "reporters and photographers." This led to the following headline: "Palins' child diagnosed with Down syndrome." Why the big hurry? Why the need for all the personal details? The way she handled this tends to create the impression that she was eager to use the kid as a political prop. For the very obvious reason of appealing to her pro-life base.

And in short order, this led to headlines like this: "Mom rejects abortion after Down syndrome diagnosis … Praise for governor: 'May God give America more women like her."

So it is indeed stunningly hypocritical to claim that her parental choices can be the subject of positive headlines, but not negative headlines.
9.3.2008 2:20am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
I'm thinking about how David is saying that VP is a far less demanding job than governor of Alaska. Maybe even less demanding than Mayor of Wasilla! The more I think about it, the more I think we have a moral obligation to elect Palin. We owe it to her kids. It's the only way to ensure they'll get more of the parental attention they've been missing.
9.3.2008 2:20am
Fury:
I'm thinking about how David is saying that VP is a far less demanding job than governor of Alaska. Maybe even less demanding than Mayor of Wasilla! The more I think about it, the more I think we have a moral obligation to elect Palin. We owe it to her kids. It's the only way to ensure they'll get more of the parental attention they've been missing.

Unfortunately, a snarky post that's not contributing to the discussion at hand. It's posts like this on both sides that contribute very little to the discussion.

As noted before, your posts used to be more thoughtful and objective. Lately, they have a quality which can best be described as tedious. Your choice, but it makes you seem partisan, more so than most other posters.
9.3.2008 7:32am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
It's posts like this on both sides that contribute very little to the discussion.


I'll be more impressed with your sincerity when you actually address remarks like that to posts from "both sides," and not just one side.

your posts used to be more thoughtful and objective


Really? I think my style (whatever you might think of it) is actually pretty consistent, and has been for years. Whatever. At least the nice thing about the internet is that you can go back and read my old posts instead, if you like them better.
9.3.2008 9:07am
A.W. (mail):
Two reactions to this post.

First, the real underlying problem is that this judgment is not for the american people's to make. If you ran a company and you refused to hire a woman b/c you think she should be home taking care of the kids, you would be sued and rightfully so.

Second, that's an alright answer for veep, but what if McCain dies?

Third, a better answer is to point out that she will have more than enough staff to help her with the day-to-day family stuff, so she will have plenty of time to be both veep and mommy.

Fourth, another better answer is that if this was "Sam" Palin, whose wife had just given birth to their 5th child, and the child had special needs, then it still wouldn't be an issue. Its only based on the sexist assumption that she and not her husband has to be with the child 24/7 that creates the concern.

But really, i think all of this is a media-ginned controversy. The attacks will backfire.
9.3.2008 10:09am
Mad Max:
I would be perfectly happy to know that Todd is at home. Do you realize there are households that run that way? Trouble is, he's not.

One might think the Democrats would be happy to see an obviously successful "non-traditional family". But no, when it's a Republican non-traditional family, all sorts of "questions" are raised. Your multiple long, protest-too-much posts on this subject are really only reinforcing the impression of misogyny and hypocrisy on the Left.
9.3.2008 10:21am
Fury:
Jukeboxgrad writes:

"I'll be more impressed with your sincerity when you actually address remarks like that to posts from "both sides," and not just one side."

Sincerity is not the issue - intellectual honesty is. I just happen to believe that several of your posts as of late demonstrate a lack of that quality, and as you are indeed posting a lot, they attract more attention.

I'm not saying there are not concerns with Palin, but the information that is presented and how it is presented that is important.
9.3.2008 11:06am
The Unbeliever:
Thanks for the correction, Smokey, but Obama's 8 year stint as a state legislator is more than twice Jindal's longest stint in one job (3 years as a congressman). Heck, Obama has been in the Senate longer than Jindal has been in any one position.


...except that Smokey is still right, because Obama tried to upgrade from state senator a scant 3 years after winning the seat:

Obama was elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996, succeeding State Senator Alice Palmer as Senator from the 13th District... In 2000, he lost a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives to four-term incumbent Bobby Rush by a margin of two to one.


So Obama's been doing the same quick-rise bit as Jindal, except he goofed a step and got "stuck" on one rung of the ladder for 7 years. And to be brutally honest, he probably wouldn't have even got his US Senate spot except for the spectacular blow-up of Jack Ryan's campaign, the IL Republicans' fumbling for a new candidate, and their eventual settling for Alan Keyes of all people three months before election date.

Of course the latest Obama line is that running a campaign is some sort of valuable executive experience, qualifying him to be President better than Palin's governorship does. So maybe he sees that particular misstep as a valuable qualification for his resume.
9.3.2008 5:39pm
William D. Tanksley, Jr:
"You're talking about how she got on the plane despite being in early stages of labor."

Ah, I see. No, I'm not talking about that -- as the post you're responding to said, "We asked for a specific example of how Palin 'asked for it' by using her family members as proof of her own character."

So I'm talking about these slams that say she's unfit because her daughter is pregnant while unmarried.

But I understand that's not what YOU were talking about, so that makes perfect sense. Yes, I agree that the decisions SHE made are all fair game. Attack away; it's a fair fight.

(I don't see how this particular one is going to win you any points... Labor often comes at an inconvenient time, and she wouldn't be the first mom to try to keep doing what she started on.)

-Wm
9.3.2008 6:22pm
jukeboxgrad (mail):
aw:

If you ran a company and you refused to hire a woman b/c you think she should be home taking care of the kids, you would be sued and rightfully so.


Wrong. If I look at the way a job applicant treats his family, and I see bad judgment and a lack of character, I'm perfectly free to not hire that person. Especially if they have invited me to evaluate them based on their parental judgments. Which is exactly what Palin has done.

she will have more than enough staff to help her with the day-to-day family stuff


Don't have kids if your plan is that they're going to be raised by your "staff." In my opinion, someone who can't grasp this simple idea is showing poor judgment and a lack of character.

Its only based on the sexist assumption that she and not her husband has to be with the child 24/7 that creates the concern.


Wrong again. I'm quite open to the idea that her husband take care of the kids, instead of her (although in my opinion there's no substitute for a mom, within the first few months). Trouble is, Todd isn't doing that. He's an oil-rig worker, a commercial fisherman, and a championship snow-machine racer. He's definitely not home taking care of the kids.
9.4.2008 10:57am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
mad:

One might think the Democrats would be happy to see an obviously successful "non-traditional family".


A kid getting pregnant in high school is very far from my concept of "obviously successful." And I don't care whether the family is traditional or not. What I care about is whether or not they are taking care of their kids. There are many signs that this family is not.
9.4.2008 10:57am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
fury:

several of your posts as of late demonstrate a lack of that quality [intellectual honesty]


If you had any of that you would back your vague allegation with proof.
9.4.2008 10:57am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
will:

No, I'm not talking about that


I think you're confused. Earlier you said this:

She put that out there on purpose?


You were making reference to what Suzy said here:

the story of flying cross country with amniotic fluid leaking, eight months into a high-risk pregnancy is being put out there as evidence of her grit or something


In other words, you seemed to be trying to deny that Palin put "out there on purpose … the story of flying cross country with amniotic fluid leaking."

But she did. I showed you some proof. Now you are either confused, or deliberately trying to deny that I proved you wrong. Or maybe both.

I'm talking about these slams that say she's unfit because her daughter is pregnant while unmarried.


You might be talking about that, too. But before there was something else you were talking about.

Labor often comes at an inconvenient time, and she wouldn't be the first mom to try to keep doing what she started on


She would definitely be the first mom I ever heard of who got on an 8-hour flight while leaking amniotic fluid, despite the fact that her doctor told her to "put her feet up to rest."

And what's very fascinating is what Suzy pointed out: that Palin thinks all this information is going to impress us. Palin thinks that we're just like her, and that we're going to agree with her that her job is more important than her kids.

That's why it's important to realize that all this information came from her. And that's the fact you were trying to deny.
9.4.2008 10:58am
William D. Tanksley, Jr:
"I think you're confused. Earlier you said this:"
She put that out there on purpose?

"You were making reference to what Suzy said here:"


Um, no, I was not making reference to what Suzy said. I was quoting YOUR message in order to rebut it. I can't intuitively follow the meaning of all these threads through more than a few replies. I did not dig through the past archives to see which message it was in response to, and (as my post was intended to point out) I in fact mistook your meaning in that message.

I'm trying to read my message and see why you're coming on so hostile. I now know I argued against a point you weren't making -- but as soon as you pointed it out, I retracted my criticism.

And now you're going ballistic on me and insisting that you know what I was trying to say better than I know, and that I have no right to retract any comments.

You're *insane*.
9.5.2008 1:30am
jukeboxgrad (mail):
I can't intuitively follow the meaning of all these threads through more than a few replies.


I noticed that you can't. I can see you're confused. That's what I said. And then I sorted it out for you, but I guess you're still confused anyway.

insisting that you know what I was trying to say better than I know


The observations I made were based on the words you actually wrote. And I did what you have admittedly not done: traced the particular point all the way back to the beginning.

now you're going ballistic on me … You're *insane*


The "ballistic" one is obviously you. Nothing I said comes remotely close to calling you "insane," or giving you a reason to call me "insane."
9.5.2008 2:16am