Big-Name Universities That Don't Have Law Schools:

It recently occurred to me that there are several big-name universities that don't have law schools, even though a law school established at any of those institutions would probably do well. Princeton arguably heads this list, along with Brown, Johns Hopkins, Rice, and Tufts. Brandeis University also doesn't have a law school (ironically, for a prominent university named after a Supreme Court justice).

Why these universities haven't established law schools is a bit of a mystery (at least to me). Law schools tend to bring in net revenue for the university. This is even more likely to be true at a big-name institution that can quickly attract good faculty and students. If Princeton were to establish a law school tommorrow, appoint a credible dean, and provide adequate initial financial backing, they could very quickly turn it into a highly successful (and profitable) enterprise. Many good students would come just because of the Princeton name, and most outstanding scholars who are not already at top 20 or top 30 institutions might well be willing to move to Princeton if asked.

Why have these schools in effect left money lying on the table? I don't know for sure (and the reasons may differ from school to school). But here are a few conjectures:

1. ABA accreditation requirements.

ABA accreditation requirements artificially raise the costs of establishing a new law school. However, wealthy institutions like Princeton or Brown can surely meet these expenses and still make a profit on the school. So I doubt this is a crucial factor.

2. Institutional inertia.

This probably is a factor, as in most large bureaucracies. Still, many universities (including George Mason in 1979) have established new law schools, so one would have to explain why Princeton, Brown, et al., have more inertia than other schools.

3. The inefficiency of non-profit institutions.

If a for-profit firm increases its revenue, the stockholders will benefit directly. This gives them an incentive to exploit new profit opportunities to the hilt. In a nonprofit such as a university, by contrast, there are no residual claimants to additional revenue. If the university establishes a new law school and increases its revenue as a result, the administration won't get a pay raise or otherwise directly benefit. That reduces their incentive to exploit opportunities to increase revenue, and may account for the failure to create what might well be highly profitable law schools. That said, universities surely do take all sorts of actions to increase revenue streams. And some have even established law schools for this purpose. So this factor too can't explain why several specific institutions have failed to establish law schools even though most of their peers have.

Ultimately, I suspect that the initial failure to establish a law school may have resulted from chance factors that were then reinforced by a combination of 2 and 3 above. If you know more about the real reasons why these big-name universities have no law schools, feel free to comment.

UPDATE: Various commenters suggest that these universities choose not to have a law school because of their desire to focus on undergraduate education. That may indeed be the right explanation, though several of these institutions (including Johns Hopkins, Tufts, and Rice) have other professional schools on campus. But it doesn't strike me as a very compelling reason not to establish a law school. If the law school were to drain resources away form undergrad education, there might indeed be a conflict between the two. In fact, however, a law school is likely to bring in net revenue that could be used to improve undergraduate education. Moreover, some law school professors (especially at elite schools) teach courses that undergraduates might be interested in taking, as sometimes happened at Yale, when I was a law student there.

Even if a law school adds resources to undergrad education instead of draining them, it's possible that its presence could detract from undergraduate education in some other, more subtle way. But it's hard for me to see how. If Yale Law School were closed down tommorrow, would undergraduate education at Yale improve? Are undergraduates at Yale currently worse off than at Princeton in some way traceable to the fact that Yale has a law school and Princeton doesn't? Possibly. But I remain skeptical. I'm not arguing that Princeton or any other institution that doesn't yet have a law school should necessarily create one. But the undergraduate education rationale for not doing so seems dubious.

Mike S.:
Because they view themselves centered on liberal (small-l) education, not professional training. Those universities (or at least most of them) do not have medical schools either.
5.12.2008 2:51pm
Paul B:
This may be an urban legend, but when I was at MIT in the 1970s, it was said that the administration wanted to start a law school but was dissuaded when several of the school's most important donors threatened to never give again if a law school was started.
5.12.2008 2:52pm
SeaDrive:
I think Brown started a med school in the 1970's. That's got to be harder than a law school.
5.12.2008 2:55pm
OrinKerr:
Ilya,

Princeton not only has no law school -- it has no business school, no medical school, no dental school, and no school of education.

The reason is that Princeton has always been a remarkably undergraduate-focused institution, and most of those connected to the University feel that it should stay that way. If I recall correctly, the administration has occasionally floated the idea of adding a law school, but the undergraduate alumni tend to oppose the idea pretty strongly.

You note that Princeton could make money from a law school, and I think that is true. Fortunately for Princeton, they don't need the money. The school already has the largest per capita endowment of any college or university in the United States -- about $2 million per enrolled student. And it also has alumni annual giving rates of something like 60%.

Orin
(Princeton '93)
5.12.2008 2:56pm
Jim Hu:
Texas A&M, where I'm on the faculty, doesn't have one. We let the Univ. of Texas handle training the lawyers, I guess.
5.12.2008 3:02pm
MattPatt (mail):
As a Rice alumnus, I should add that Princeton's reasons for not establishing a law school all apply equally well to Rice (though we do have a business school, and I'm told it's highly ranked and a huge moneymaker). Although I have occasionally wondered if some members on the board of trustees haven't been toying with the idea of establishing a law school -- the current president (since 2004) of the university, David Leebron, was formerly dean of Columbia Law. Although if President Leebron has any designs in this direction, he's been keeping them to himself.
5.12.2008 3:05pm
JRL:
"The reason is that Princeton has always been a remarkably undergraduate-focused institution, and most of those connected to the University feel that it should stay that way."

I always thought Princeton was just a basketball school.
5.12.2008 3:05pm
DNL (mail):
Tufts has the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, and probably does not want to cause brand confusion (or whatever the nonprofit equiv is)
5.12.2008 3:07pm
Ilya Somin:
Because they view themselves centered on liberal (small-l) education, not professional training. Those universities (or at least most of them) do not have medical schools either.

Maybe this is indeed the reason. But several of these schools do have other professional schools, and even Princeton has a major focus on grad students and on research institutions (such as the Institute for Advanced Studies). Moreover, if adding a law school increased revenue, it might actually help undergrad education rather than detracting from it.
5.12.2008 3:09pm
Grant Gould (mail):
I recall from my childhood in Princeton an article in the Princeton Packet (the local paper) that the University had received a number of bomb threats indicating that someone intended to blow up the "Princeton University Law School". I always wondered if that weekend there was a more-confused-than-usual mad bomber driving around campus asking directions from passing students. Perhaps he is driving there still.
5.12.2008 3:09pm
DG:
The payback would not be immediate - there is a lot of CapEx involved in starting a new professional school, especially the library. I think you could certainly get a 10 year ROI, though.
5.12.2008 3:12pm
Adam B. (www):
<i>I always thought Princeton was just a basketball school.</i>

2007-08 record: 6-23 overall, 3-11 in Ivy competition.
5.12.2008 3:12pm
GG (mail):
Dartmouth doesn't have a law school either even though it has graduate schools of medicine and engineering and business. My guess is that any proposal to start a law school at Dartmouth (I claim no knowledge with respect to any other institution) would be met by a lot of opposition from alums who hate lawyers (always a significant fraction) and from those who question whether the money invested would better serve the college's mission if invested in some other manner. Profit is not the mission of the institution, and if more cash is needed it could be obtained by simply raising undergrad tuition (there is plenty of room for price increases because of the demand for the limited number of undergraduate spots).

GG
5.12.2008 3:14pm
Guest101:
I think your pro-market assumptions are getting in your way here. Your confusion about the "inefficiency" of a non-profit institution's "leaving money on the table" presumes that the paramount goal of every institution is to increase revenues, which, in the case of non-profit institutions, it manifestly is not. Perhaps a case could be made that Princeton, Brown, etc., are acting irrationally in failing to establish such schools, but unless you intend to call into question the legitimacy vel non of non-profit institutions, you would need to make it in terms of the institutions' self-professed mission statement rather than with the default ultimate goal of every for-profit institution-- i.e., making money.
5.12.2008 3:15pm
frankcross (mail):
I know Princeton, and Bill Bradley, have thought about creating a law school dedicated to public service. They haven't done so for institutional culture reasons (undergrad ed, no trade schools) and because the chunk of cash to start it up would be truly enormous. They've got the money but would have to swallow a big hit.
5.12.2008 3:18pm
Wes:
Rumors have been going around in the Baltimore legal community that Johns Hopkins is planning on opening a law school. Of course, unconfirmed rumors are just that.
5.12.2008 3:20pm
Sasha Volokh (mail) (www):
Brandeis can't establish a law school because there's already a Brandeis Law School in Louisville!
5.12.2008 3:22pm
Q:
I don't think any of your reasons really hit the nail completely. #1 isn't really a deterrent given the number of new schools (at decidedly less wealthy universities) that have started and successfully gotten ABA accreditation in the last 20-30 years (Drexel being the latest one). With the right university president, prospective law dean, and a gob of money, #2 can be overcome. Look at places like Irvine, Stony Brook, and the aforementioned Drexel. These 3 schools are going into the law school business knowing full well that their local markets (LA/SoCal, NYC/downstate NY, Philly) are probably already at saturation point. As for #3, I don't think it's a matter of not having a profit motive as it is a general risk-adversity - fear of failure, fear of pissing off donors or not attracting enough, fear of expansion (capital fundraising for a new law school building, even on an existing campus, is hard), and like Orin said, fear of mission creep. I think a plausible reason, at least as far as universities that aren't looking at law schools as pure cash cows goes, is that if they're going to start a law school, they might as well do it right or not do it at all. Not every school has a Princeton cachet to bank on and even the most enthusiastic dean has to find cutbacks somewhere, sacrificing quality.
5.12.2008 3:24pm
ech:
I'm a Rice alum, and have talked with several honchos on campus about why they don't have a law school. First, as others have noted, Rice is undergraduate focused - I was able to do published research as an undergrad there, a common occurance. Second, Rice has been fiscally conservative for quite a while, allowing them to keep tuition low and financial aid high. Third, Rice has had a policy of not opening a new professional or graduate program unless they think they can become a national power in a short time. This led them to carefully plan the buildup of their business school (Jones), which is getting a good reputation in energy and international business. Fourth, Texas already has two pretty good law schools (UT-Austin and SMU), so it's gonna be hard to hit up the locals for big bucks. The local business community was ready to help get the Jones school up and running. The Baker Institute for International Affairs has some synergy with the b-school, also.

Rice has also declined to start a med school, since there is a top 5 school across the street (Baylor) and another good one next to Baylor (UT Houston) in the Medical Center. They do have joint programs with them for MD/PhDs, biomedical engineering, and nanotech health applications.
5.12.2008 3:25pm
JLC:
Maybe this is indeed the reason. But several of these schools do have other professional schools, and even Princeton has a major focus on grad students and on research institutions (such as the Institute for Advanced Studies). Moreover, if adding a law school increased revenue, it might actually help undergrad education rather than detracting from it.

The Institute for Advanced Studies is separate from Princeton, even though there is a degree of informal assistance and cross-pollination.

There is always a feeling among grad students at Princeton to being second-class citizens in the eyes of the administration.

As to whether a law school would help undergraduate education, most administrators and alumni donors believe that the focus on undergraduates sets Princeton apart from its peers, especially in the admissions ratrace. Peers being the other Ivies, Stanford, MIT, and sometimes Chicago. (arrogant? a bit.)
5.12.2008 3:25pm
coyote (mail) (www):
I can only speak to Princeton. Princeton works hard at positioning itself as primarily an undergraduate institution. Yes, it has graduate schools in the liberal arts and some sciences, but it has not law school, no med school, and no business school. The graduate schools it has are arguably there mainly to make sure it can attract and keep great talent for its undergraduates. I went to Princeton undergrad and Harvard grad school. Princeton grad students complain about being the black sheep of the university, something you definitely don't hear anywhere else. In fact, at Harvard, you generally get the opposite complaint. So three cheers for no law school at Princeton.
5.12.2008 3:29pm
delurking (mail):
Ilya Somin wrote:

Maybe this is indeed the reason. But several of these schools do have other professional schools, and even Princeton has a major focus on grad students and on research institutions (such as the Institute for Advanced Studies). Moreover, if adding a law school increased revenue, it might actually help undergrad education rather than detracting from it.


Having been both an undergraduate and graduate student at Princeton, I contest the statement that there is a major focus on graduate students. There is certainly more attention paid to undergraduate education.

I'm not sure what you mean by "research institutions". The one example you gave, the Institute for Advanced Study, is not affiliated with Princeton University. It just happens to be in the same town.

As to your last point, is it normal for universities that have law, business, medical, etc. schools to use excess profits from those to fund undergraduate education?
5.12.2008 3:34pm
Dave Hardy (mail) (www):
Doesn't GMU Law date farther back than 1979? I *think* in 79 or 80 knew a fellow who had his JD from GMU.
5.12.2008 3:38pm
OrinKerr:
So three cheers for no law school at Princeton.

Or how about a locomotive?

Rah, rah, rah,
Tiger, tiger, tiger
Sis, sis, sis,
Boom, boom, boom, bah!
No law school! No law school! No law school!
5.12.2008 3:38pm
Brad Ford (mail):
"Texas A&M, where I'm on the faculty, doesn't have one. We let the Univ. of Texas handle training the lawyers, I guess."

Texas A&M is not an elite university!!!
5.12.2008 3:40pm
Arlingtonguy:
Dave H.,

Like Penn State, Mason did not build a law school from scratch. In 1979, it acquired the International School of Law which was founded in 1972.
5.12.2008 3:47pm
Ubertrout (mail):
Didn't Johns Hopkins have a Legal Realist focused law school back in the day? Whatever happened to that?
5.12.2008 3:48pm
alkali (mail):
If I wanted to start a law school today that I hoped would soon be in the top 25, I would very much want to locate it in a major city in order to facilitate clinical programs. "Near a major metropolitan area" won't be enough if students taking public transit would have 90-minute commutes one-way for clinical work. This would be an issue for some of the schools listed above.

This is not to say that law schools that aren't in major cities can't be great law schools, but if you were deciding whether to start a school it would certainly be something you'd want think about. By way of comparison, it wouldn't surprise me that one of the reasons that Cornell hasn't expanded is the limited number of clinical opportunities in that area.
5.12.2008 3:49pm
The River Temoc (mail):
Harvard's various schools are notorious for not getting along -- the law school versus the Faculty of Arts &Sciences versus Harvard Business School versus the Kennedy School, etc.

At Harvard, there is virtually no overlap between the Kennedy School faculty and that of the Government Department. Contrast that to Princeton, where there is significant overlap between the Woodrow Wilson School (Princeton's one professional school, which also has an undergrad major) and the Politics Department.

While the problem is particularly acute at Harvard, I think it's a problem for many large institutions. I suspect that the Princetons and Johns Hopkinses prefer to remain smaller, more flexible institutions that focus on their core competencies, and I think they would be ill-advised to change that.
5.12.2008 3:52pm
Ubertrout (mail):
Occasionally I can answer my own question...here's some info about Johns Hopkins' dallying with an Institute of Law in the 1920s and 1930s.
5.12.2008 3:55pm
Wilbur Post:
You're confusing revenues with tuition, Ilya. How much of its endowment would Princeton have to spend in order to build a top law school? How much in earnings (at 10-15% per year or more, every year) does Princeton lose if financial assets in that amount are converted into buildings, a faculty, etc. I doubt the "profits" (i.e., tuition less expenses) from the law school come anywhere near replacing the lost earnings on their endowment.

Go Tigers!
5.12.2008 3:59pm
Anna:
Princeton has the Law and Public Affairs program which trains lawyers on public policy stuff. I suspect they would want to carve their niche on that area. LAPA is generally highly-regarded as a research stop for well-credentialed law profs, like the Rockefeller (Bellagio), and Stanford centers.
5.12.2008 4:00pm
DeBaron:
It would be particularly interesting to ask this question to Rice's president Leebron, because he used to be Dean of Columbia Law School.

But its an interesting question. I recall a dean from my undergrad alma mater Yeshiva University stating that the reason they established Cordozo law school was that its a rrevnue positive, especially once alumni can be counted on to contribute.
5.12.2008 4:00pm
R Gould-Saltman (mail):
The underlying assumption, that colleges are generally run with maximizing their short-term revenue as the, or even a, primary goal, is just unsupportable. Whether they SHOULD be run that way might be an interesting topic for discussion, but that they are not presently run this way is also pretty clear; by this standard, Stanford, in particular, should have sold off a big chunk of its campus a year or two ago, or in about 1988, and neither they, now Harvard, should be spending their endowment money on reducing undergrad tuition.
5.12.2008 4:01pm
Ilya Somin:
The underlying assumption, that colleges are generally run with maximizing their short-term revenue as the, or even a, primary goal, is just unsupportable.

I never made any such assumption. Indeed, my point 3 is directly counter to it.
5.12.2008 4:07pm
Bretzky (mail):
According to the US News rankings, the ten highest ranked national universities without law schools are: 1) Princeton, 5) Cal Tech, 7) MIT, 11) Dartmouth, 14) Brown, 14) Johns Hopkins, 17) Rice, 22) Carnegie Mellon, 28) Tufts, and tied at 31) Lehigh and Brandeis.

That's a rather eclectic group. I imagine the reasons why none of these schools has established a law school are varied. My guess as to the most common reason they haven't done so is that they simply haven't investigated it in depth. The administrations at these schools probably have their hands full with running a world-class educational institution and the resources--which includes things in addition to money--to start a whole new professional school from scratch just aren't available.
5.12.2008 4:07pm
Anon56 (mail):
Hopefully, one reason why these schools haven't started law schools is there is no need for more law schools in the U.S. If anything, we have too many law schools as is. Many fourth-tier schools should close and third tier schools (especially private third tier schools) should significantly reduce their class sizes.
5.12.2008 4:13pm
Tern (mail):

Fourth, Texas already has two pretty good law schools (UT-Austin and SMU), so it's gonna be hard to hit up the locals for big bucks


Texas already has four good law schools - UT, U of H, SMU, and Baylor. And it's more difficult than one would think to bring a new law school up into the top hundred. Of course, it would be humiliating for Rice to be creamed by U of H in other things than athletics, but all I can say is Ruck Fice!
5.12.2008 4:15pm
Paul B:
Ilya's fundamental assumption that a prestigious university could invest in a de novo law school for the purpose of generating profits for its existing operations needs to be examined. First, he assumes that "Princeton Law School" would require major front end investment in order to be recognized as a top flight school. Second, the benefit of wealthy alumni contributing to the school won't begin for the most part for 25 or 30 years after the first class graduates. If the whole purpose of starting a law school that capitalizes on the school's pre-existing prestige is to generate cash flow for existing departments, wouldn't it make more sense to just invest the front end investment and early year cash flow losses as part of the endowment?

That being said, there is an example of what Prof. Somin suggests only in business, not law. Yale started its school of managment in the 1970s, and has managed to get a ranking of around #10 due to a combination of prestige brand name and plentiful cash from the general endowment. Even in this case, I doubt that Yale's existing departments benefitted financially from the creation of the School of Managment above and beyond what would have been gained from putting that money directly into their operations.
5.12.2008 4:15pm
theobromophile (www):
Tufts has the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, and probably does not want to cause brand confusion (or whatever the nonprofit equiv is)

Fletcher offers an LLM in international law; it does not have a J.D. granting school, however.

Tufts does not have a business school, either (undergrad or MBA), although it does have a plethora of graduate schools. I will note, however, that Ilya's statement, "That may indeed be the right explanation, though several of these institutions (including Johns Hopkins, Tufts, and Rice) have other professional schools on campus," is only partially correct: the med school, vet school, and dental school are not located on the Medford/Somerville campus.

Alternate explanation: until very recently, Tufts lacked the financial resources to build a world-class law school. The endowment, when I started there, was under $400 million. Arguably, it would have drained the university's coffers to build and accredit a law school. Even if the expenditure would eventually pay off, and even if space for the school could be found on the M/S campus (a tough one - v. crowded at the moment, with some of the engineering buildings being essentially off-campus), such an endeavour may have been financially unfeasible in the short term.
5.12.2008 4:26pm
procrastinating clerk (mail):
I was pretty sure Princeton already has a law school. Philip Banks, the uncle on the Fresh Price on Bel-Air, went there. It is very prestigious.
5.12.2008 4:29pm
Alex B:
I recall an Arts &Sciences Faculty Senate meeting at Hopkins in the early 1970's when Rob Roy from the Engineering Department was trying to get a School of Management Sciences approved. Debate slowed down substantially after one old prof stood up and said, "We aren't a trade school."

But then they now have the Carey Business School. Perhaps a law school will be Bloomberg's next gift.
5.12.2008 4:29pm
procrastinating clerk (mail):
"am" not "was"
5.12.2008 4:33pm
Stevve (mail):
I would add University of Delaware to the list as well. As a Delaware grad, and someone born in Delaware I always hoped they would start a law school. In the past ten years the administration there has made a serious effort to make UD a top tier school and they have highly-regarded graduated programs in Engineering and Physical Therapy, plus a good MBA program. Also, add on the fact the Delaware is an important state for Corporate Law. Lastly, they have very little competition from other law schools in the state. There is only one other in the state. Perhaps with a new president in there, they will look into it in the near future
5.12.2008 4:40pm
UW2L:
Having just gotten back from Rice's graduation weekend (from upper 80s and sunny to 55 and raining, damn you, Seattle), I agree with commenters who say there are already a sufficient number of law schools in Texas. Rice would do a bang-up job of a law school, I'm sure, and Rice Law grads would probably be able to trade on Rice's general prestige immediately, even as the law school was establishing itself. But UT Law alone graduates hundreds of people per year and their grads have the job market all but sewn up; the three other law schools currently in existence take up most of the remaining small slice of the pie. Pretty high barrier to entry, there.

And as others have said, Rice does an amazing job of undergraduate education; it's stayed small, it focuses on its young'uns, it sends them to great careers with the ink still wet on their bachelor's degrees. Why mess up a good thing by diluting the core competency with another grad school?

@Tern: Go Owls. :) Go where, other than to the bottom of the local conference rankings, I don't know, but coming from the school that frequently puts the "#10" into "Pac-10," I can empathize with a school full of "brainiacs," as the Houston Press put it, who suck at sports.
5.12.2008 4:46pm
Hoosier:
From the point of view of administrators at research universities, med schools are much more desirable than law schools. Granted, they cost mega-bucks to start up. But the payoff--that you cannot get from a law school--is the massive influx in research dollars.

This factor--how much research money a university lands each year--is THE factor in explaining why my alma mater, Notre Dame, periodically sets up a committee to decide whether the place needs a med school.

Under the old Carnegie ranking system, ND ranked behind places such a Howard U; the reason being entirely the money that Howard Med School brought in, and the "points" that research dollars gave a school under that former methodology.

Ranking is INCREDIBLY important to administrators and boards these days. I don't know if opening a law school would help much. But a med school can get you somewhere.
5.12.2008 4:49pm
John87 (mail):
In my opinion, the number one must valuable resource a law school has is the quality of its students. This is measured purely as a function of GPA and LSAT. It is this criterion that is foremost in determining national rank and prestige. The big question for a school like Princeton is whether it could attract the type of students that would live up to the Princeton brand-name. I tend to doubt it simply because the best law students are more likely to go with a known commodity, like a T-14 school, which will all but guarantee a great job, then take a chance on a start up school, even with a great name. Princeton, and only Princeton, might be able to suck away some students from Fordham, BU, BC, GW, Villanova, etc., but even this is risky business for a student because these T-20 schools generate job prospects that are almost as good as T-14 schools. If Princeton had to stretch beyond that, to students with LSAT:158-162 GPA:3.3-3.5, it just might not be worth it.

Someone raised an interesting point about there being too many law schools. Ironically, there is also a shortage of highly qualified law students for big firm work, which is why prices have been going up to such outrageous rates. I wonder if adding another top tier law school would actually pull in more highly qualified students, or if it would just redistribute the ones that already apply. However, I also wonder if pulling more bright students into law is good for America.


My guess is that a start-up school could not match the prestige of the general university brand name. Take Princeton for example.
5.12.2008 5:12pm
frankcross (mail):
Upon reflection, given the returns these schools are getting on their endowments, one might think that no expenditure of this money would be economically efficient. A law school would bring in more money down the road, but at the cost of many billions short term. I suspect the net present financial value is negative.
5.12.2008 5:15pm
Q:
Stevve @ 3:40 - Yes, Delaware is an important state for corporate law, but because of this, most of the country already learns Delaware corporate law as a default plus the law of whatever state their own school is in. That's why I don't think this by itself is a selling point for opening another law school in Delaware. Plus even though Widener is the only law school there so far, it's in the same region as the Philadelphia and Baltimore schools and Rutgers-Camden. Will the market for law students support UD? Finally, I wonder how many people actually take the Delaware bar exam, either from Widener or elsewhere. Not only does Delaware have no reciprocity, there is also the post-exam "clerkship" requirement which I think is unique to that state.
5.12.2008 5:19pm
theobromophile (www):
Additions to previous thoughts:

Larry Bacow, the current Tufts President, was an attorney in his previous career. I wonder whether or not that is some of the reason that Fletcher added an LLM in international law; perhaps it is a test programme for a larger, J.D.-granting institution.

If not for the space and resource considerations, Tufts would be in a good position to start a law school - as it could append the law school to Fletcher. IIRC, Fletcher and HLS have a dual-degree programme (MALD and JD in four years); that could be changed to a dual-degree MALD/JD from Tufts. We do have the problem of space, however: the Medford/Somerville campus is at capacity; Jumbos love their trees, President's Lawn, and quads too much to allow much more building. Even if the law school were to be about the size of W&L, which is the smallest of the top 25 schools, it is questionable whether the campus could handle an additional 400 students, which means parking, dorms, and dining services for 400 students plus faculty.

My guess is that a start-up school could not match the prestige of the general university brand name. Take Princeton for example

Counterexample: NYU, whose law school has far exceeded the brand name and prestige of the associated undergraduate institution.
.
5.12.2008 5:21pm
John McCall (mail):
It's certainly possible for law professors to teach an occasional undergraduate course, but by-and-large law schools don't contribute academically to the rest of the school. They're pretty unique in that: pretty much every other graduate school has at least one associated undergraduate program. This makes it especially difficult to start a new law school, because there are no existing undergraduate programs for the school to grow out from; instead, the entire school must be imported from elsewhere, and it must be imported simultaneously in order to have a functioning program. I suspect it would be almost impossible to start new law schools if law professors were expected to have a different degree than a J.D.; as it is, they can always feed off the ongoing glut of lawyers.

I'm sure this is most of why Carnegie Mellon doesn't have a law school.
5.12.2008 5:22pm
J.G. Ballard (mail):
I believe that Purdue University is the last of the eleven Big "Ten" schools not to have an affiliated law school. Curiously, Purdue's in-state rival Indiana University has two separate, independent law schools. The older one being at IU's home campus in Bloomington; the other is located in Indianapolis on the IUPUI campus, which is also the location of IU's medical school.

There were rumors that Purdue wanted to claim the Indianapolis-based law school as its own, but too many alumni protested.
5.12.2008 5:27pm
Q:

Ironically, there is also a shortage of highly qualified law students for big firm work, which is why prices have been going up to such outrageous rates.


John87 @ 4:12 - Orly? Or are the firms simply keeping the barriers to entry artificially high?
"Law firms digging deeper on campus"

If anything, there is an acute shortage of lawyers willing and able (financially) to do government and public interest work. Many of the new law schools founded in the last few decades try to address that (CUNY especially). But that kind of niche doesn't lead to Ivy-sized endowments when you start a new school from scratch.
5.12.2008 5:31pm
Hoosier:
A number of universities with "new" law schools have in fact absorbed already-existing law schools. (MSU, Texas Wesleyan, etc.) Usually indpendent law schools, although there are exceptions.

A question--I have no idea, but I'd like to hear what you all think:

If a name university decides it absolutley MUST have a law school, what are the advantages/disadvantages of buying-out an indepenent law school?

I assume the prestige issue would prevent, say, Princeton from taking such a step. Amalgamating any independent law school with Princeton would raise that school's standing, of course. But Princeton could probably get a higher-ranker L school by starting from scratch. The "Princeton" label is so powerful.

But let's say Purdue were to absorb John Marshall in Chicago. (No inside dope here. Just the closest independent LS I can think of to Lafayette, Indiana.) They would get pre-fabricated facilities, faculty, name-recognition, alumni, etc.

On the other hand, the students might have lower LSAT numbers than Purdue would want. The faculty might not be as prestigious and productive as their counterparts in Engineering, Sciences, Letters, etc.

Is the trade-off worth it?
5.12.2008 5:58pm
Alan Gunn (mail):
I vote for No. 3. The last time I looked, Princeton's endowment was about $1 million per student, and it's probably a lot more now. They don't need all the money they have and so they don't need more. Also, even though adding a law school would be profitable in the long run, the start-up costs would reduce the endowment, and the main activity of big-name schools is increasing their endowments, for reasons that nobody seems to understand.
5.12.2008 5:59pm
Houston Lawyer:
Politics also plays a part. Texas A&M tried to affiliate itself with South Texas College of Law a few years ago but the arrangement was eventually declared illegal. I thought at the time that the Aggies should have taken over the Thurgood Marshall School of Law here. I know that the Aggies would have done a better job at turning out competent attorneys.

I find it interesting that some good universities have no law schools, but a lot of bad ones do.
5.12.2008 6:04pm
Hoosier:
Alan Gunn: and the main activity of big-name schools is increasing their endowments

Truer words were never spoken, brother! It just doesn't seem that the endowment ought to be the primary focus of a university.
5.12.2008 6:09pm
John87 (mail):
Q: I could not agree more about the shortage of great lawyers for public service jobs. I disagree about public interest however. One thing that really annoys me as a law student at one of the better national universitys is the premium placed on non-profit public interest positions, like SPLC, while great public service jobs are hardly ever mentioned. It seems like the only thing that mattters to students is the pride of landing a selective job. I would argue that a student with a 3.6+ GPA who chooses to become a public defender or work in the AG's office is doing a far FAR greater public service than someone who muscles his or her way into those glamorous environmental/human rights/puppy-saving non-profit jobs. And I say "muscles" because it seems these jobs are as selective as Cravath. In reality, you don't add much value, you just displace a similarly qualified individual. As for the "shortage" of qualified candidates for big firm jobs--I buy that it exists. Firms are loathe to differentiate salary by school and GPA (and for good reason) so whatever they pay for the supreme court clerk who graduated magna from Harvard is what they pay to the girl from Vanderbilt who was in the top 20% of her class. Those who are among the last hired benefit from the price scale being set to attract the best candidates. Firms definitely have an interest, therefore, in not having too wide a gulf in talent between the top and bottom. Even if lessor students could do the work, they are still lessor students, and firms naturally don't want to pay them what they pay for the Yalies. If this comes off as callous, I'm fine with that because the job candidates in question are all after $160K jobs themselves, so I don't really see any "victims."
5.12.2008 6:14pm
Roy Englert:
A major benefit of competition in free markets is that competing firms or institutions can each point to their respective advantages and argue that the consumer is better off with their product. Princeton has positioned itself, over many years, to compete for those undergrads who accept the argument that the absence of professional schools leads to a greater focus on undergrads and a better overall educational experience. Harvard and Yale have positioned themselves, over many years, to compete for those undergrads who accept the argument that the presence of professional schools creates something that enhances the undergrad experience (opportunities to cross-register, greater prestige, extra income, opportunities to stay in the same university for the next degree, whatever). Harvard and Yale have also positioned themselves to compete for students -- law and med and business students -- for whom Princeton chooses not to compete.

This kind of brand differentiation strikes me as market forces at work. It does not strike me as irrationality or market failure.
5.12.2008 6:41pm
Edward A. Hoffman (mail):
I disagree with Prof. Somin's premise that a new law school would benefit a university's other programs financially.

At the three universities I know best -- Columbia, USC and Harvard -- each faculty operates on its own revenue stream, with no subsidies from any of the others. A portion of each school's budget goes to the central administration to pay for such items as the libraries, the gyms, central computing, etc. (and the administration itself), but each keeps the rest of its money. This is why, for example, Columbia's arts programs are cash-strapped while its law and business schools are relatively wealthy.

The only exception is that undergraduate programs often help subsidize graduate programs offered by the same faculty. Thus, tuition from USC's engineering undergrads probably helps fund the education of engineering grad students. Tuition from Harvard College undergrads likewise helps fund Harvard's graduate programs in the arts &sciences. Law schools don't have undergrads -- and even if they did, under this model the undergrads would be subsidizing the JD students rather than the other way around.

Perhaps other universities operate differently, but those which operate as I have described would not have much financial incentive to open a law school.
5.12.2008 6:54pm
PLR:
Brandeis can't establish a law school because there's already a Brandeis Law School in Louisville!

Another valuable trivia point learned at the VC. Thanks Sasha!
5.12.2008 7:08pm
Elliot Reed (mail):
A law school would hurt Princeton's brand image as an undergraduate-focused school whether or not it actually detracted from the undergrad program, which would kill its biggest advantage in the rankings fight. It would also require a substantial up-front investment of money, which would decrease the endowment. Since the goals of schools like Princeton seem to be increasing their U.S. News ranking and growing the endowment, I see no benefit to starting a law school.
5.12.2008 7:58pm
gator:
Do people think that there's any particular need for more law schools? That's a sincere question; I really don't know. Is there any significant number of people who (1) want to go to law school and (2) are smart enough to meet the requirements and pass the bar exam, but who are unable to find a school to attend? Or is it that there are talented people who are dissuaded because they don't want to suffer the indignity of attending a non-"elite" school, and who would be likely to go if there were more spots at higher-tier schools? And if so, is that something to be desired?

I guess I'm skeptical about whether there's any such need; is it possible that Princeton et al feel the same way? Maybe it's the Jurassic Park idea - just because you can doesn't mean you should. [Of course, I probably have my own biases - I worry that the job market I'll be entering in a couple of years is going to be competitive enough as it is.]
5.12.2008 8:09pm
Haberdash:
Maybe they don't think their law school would equal the prestige of the university as a whole, perhaps bringing the reputation of the entire university down a notch?
5.12.2008 8:23pm
john dickinson (mail):
I took the campus tour at Princeton a few years back and this questions came up. Our guide talked at length on the subject. Mainly, he said, the university is opposed to professional schools, preferring to remain purely "academic." He also suggested that there were some elements who thought they might eventually institute a JD-granting program under a different banner than "law school," such as at their school of public policy (which is quasi-professional anyway). Of course, he was a tour guide, so I have no idea if he knew what he was talking about or not.
5.12.2008 9:00pm
Jim Hu:
Texas A&M is not an elite university!!!
The original post said "big-name" not elite, and I think we qualify for that. We're not elitist here either!
5.13.2008 1:22am
Q:
Thanks John87 @ 5:14 for responding to my comment. Just to clarify, my definition of public interest is probably broader than yours and includes the public service examples you give; I guess I'm working from the dichotomy of private practice vs. everything else.

john dickinson @ 8:00 brings up a very interesting idea about an alternative JD. Is there a place in the legal academy for an "executive JD" in the same fashion as executive MBA's? Law schools across the board right now are primarily set up to train students to pass the bar and become practicing lawyers. Even a student who wants to become a pure academic and pursue a JSD usually has to have a JD first. (Right?) I believe there are many professionals who could benefit from a serious study of law, especially as it applies to their industry, and who don't intend to practice. I also believe there may be students in MPA, MPP, and M.Phil. programs who want to study law as its own rigorous academic discipline. Both of these groups have a disincentive to go to law school under the current paradigm. Can a new or existing law school develop an alternative JD niche? I know Kaplan's Concord online law school and some other unaccredited schools already do this. Should they be brought into the mainstream?
5.13.2008 1:23am
Shalom Beck (mail) (www):
Princeton has professional programs in architecture and engineering (BSE, etc.). So their purity is already lost.

Nobody has mentioned the story about how Woodrow Wilson wnet to Andrew Carnegie to ask for money to start a law school, and came back with funds for a rowing pond. Urban legend?

The initial post presumed that the returns to a law school are not captured by law school faculty and administration. Evidence?

Finally, despite not having a law school, Princeton has a surprising number of law professors, including the Provost.
5.13.2008 3:30am
Dan Weber (www):
Princeton has professional programs in architecture and engineering (BSE, etc.). So their purity is already lost.

Architecture and engineering strike me as both very academic subjects. I could easily see the argument that having graduate students in engineering hanging around campus helps the undergraduate program.

(looks at their architecture program's website) Wow, it sure ain't a professional program in webdesign!
5.13.2008 9:54am
Cleland:
...the university is opposed to professional schools, preferring to remain purely "academic."

I graduated from Princeton in '06, and agree with this assessment. I also agree with Dan's suggestion that the Architecture and Engineering programs are academic enough as to retain "academic purity." I also think those programs are run with a peculiarly Princetonian "academic" bent.

Interestingly, Princeton did have a law school briefly in the mid-19th century: wiki.
5.13.2008 2:38pm
Matt b (mail):
maybe the lawyer-trusttes don't want to step on their law school alma mater toes--yale law, columbia, law, cornell law...

there's too many law school already, don't wish for me
5.13.2008 2:42pm
Jeremy Pierce (mail) (www):
It might be geography that's limiting Brown. Unless they wanted the law school to be pretty disconnected from the university as a whole, they'd have a hard time finding somewhere for it to be located. As it is they keep having to buy up neighboring parts of the city just to fit what they do have.
5.13.2008 4:01pm
byomtov (mail):
Maybe they don't think their law school would equal the prestige of the university as a whole, perhaps bringing the reputation of the entire university down a notch?

I think this is an important reason. Sure, Princeton could get good faculty and after a while the reputation of its law school woould be fine. But it would take time, for lots of reasons. How long would it take, for example, for a Princeton graduate to be named to the Supreme Court?

Meanwhile, they spend a lot of money, and weaken the Princeton brand. Not a great idea.
5.13.2008 4:23pm
Katl L (mail):
But Alito is a Princenton graduated student, or im wrong?
5.13.2008 5:21pm
Cleland:
But Alito is a Princenton graduated student, or im wrong?

He went to Princeton undergrad and Yale Law.
5.14.2008 12:30am
Brad Ford (mail):
"Texas A&M is not an elite university!!! The original post said "big-name" not elite, and I think we qualify for that. We're not elitist here either!"

Although a good university, A&M is not a big name university academically.
5.14.2008 10:13am