[Kingsley Browne, guest-blogging, December 7, 2007 at 4:56pm] Trackbacks
Co-ed Combat – Responses to Comments:

In my last post, I said that my next post would be my concluding one. However, I thought that it might be worthwhile separately addressing a few recurring points from the comments.

THE RACE ANALOGY: Several commenters suggested that the arguments made in my posts are illegitimate if they would be unacceptable if “race” were substituted for “sex.” Acceptance of that argument would lead to the conclusion that the Women’s National Basketball Association, sex-segregated bathrooms, and women’s colleges are examples of apartheid.

The fact is that race and sex are different as categories. Although both of them have underlying biological bases, racial segregation in the military had nothing to do with the biology of race and everything to do with the social meaning placed upon race. Despite arguments to the contrary, however, sex is not just a social construct, and sex differences relevant to military service exist irrespective of what we think about them.

THE INDIVIDUAL-TESTING ARGUMENT: Several comments suggested that everyone should be given the same tests and any individual who can satisfy them – irrespective of sex – should be able to join. While that approach could work with strength, as I pointed out in one of my early posts, it works less well for psychological attributes. Moreover, some of the concerns about women in combat arise from the mere fact of women’s “femaleness” as opposed to any particular individual traits.

Few people seem to be incensed by the military’s use of age restrictions. If you are over 27 and try to join the Marines or Air Force, or if you are over 35 and try to join the Navy, or if you are over 42 and try to join the Army, you are extremely unlikely to be successful. Yet the same individualistic arguments can be made about people who are over the age limit as can be made about sex. After all, some people who are too old for enlistment no doubt would be more valuable to the military than some younger people whom the military would be happy to have. Of course, this could just mean that the age restrictions are ill-advised, too.

CITATION TO AUTHORITY: A number of people expressed regret (or more) that I did not cite authority for assertions in these posts. When I started writing my entries, I had to make a judgment about whether to cite to the relevant literature. I decided, for better or worse, not to, for a variety of reasons. First, assuming that I did not provide authority for every assertion, there was the difficulty in drawing the line between assertions for which I would provide authority and those for which I would not. Second, not all (or perhaps even most) readers of blogs expect or want to read heavily sourced, academic style writings, and I assumed that people seriously interested in the underlying research would go to my book (and, of course, I hoped that they would buy it for themselves, as well as for everyone on their Christmas card list).

Perhaps the most fundamental reason for not citing to the relevant literature is that a one-sentence assertion in a blog post might be summarizing several pages of my book, which in turn might be citing numerous authorities. To give one example, in my post on cohesion and trust I stated: “Formation of, and functioning in, large cohesive groups is easier for men than for women, and men are more accepting of hierarchy than women are.” I was criticized for “bald assertion” in making this point, and, of course, the assertion was “bald,” if that means that I cited no authority for it. However, that one sentence summarized about five pages from my book that contained nineteen footnotes that cited to over twenty separate sources, most from the psychological literature. That does not mean that my inferences and conclusions are correct, of course, but it does mean that I didn’t make them up out of whole cloth.

Point of Fact (mail):
Thanks for this post. Because of it, I will buy your book.
12.7.2007 5:06pm
Randy R. (mail):
Browne: " If you are over 27 and try to join the Marines or Air Force, or if you are over 35 and try to join the Navy, or if you are over 42 and try to join the Army, you are extremely unlikely to be successful. Yet the same individualistic arguments can be made about people who are over the age limit as can be made about sex. After all, some people who are too old for enlistment no doubt would be more valuable to the military than some younger people whom the military would be happy to have. Of course, this could just mean that the age restrictions are ill-advised, too."

Okay, now you are certainly grasping at straws. Of course age can have a difference -- the same can be said about having a career in ballet or football. Yet -- even you acknowledge that there is no actual prohibition against someone joining the air force over 27, just that it is unlikely to be unsuccesful. So give the guy a chance -- if there is a reasonable possibility that he might succeed, then you accept him. If he fails basic training, then he fails. But even you don't suggest that there be an actual age limit. And Margot Foteyn danced well into here 50s, far past the the age limit in ballet.

It seems strange -- I was attacked earlier for suggesting certain standards be applied across the board for anyone wishing to be in the military. If you pass those standards you get in, if you don't, you don't. (Common sense can be unnerving to some people, I know).

and yet, today the military has a very difficult time recruiting new people. And so they have actually lowered standards -- they are accepting people with criminal records even! Talk about lowering standards. But that seems okay with everyone here -- I guess it's better to have a criminal in your ranks, that you can trust him better than a clean female.

so which is it? Do you suggest it's okay to lower standards whenever you need men, but that you need really really high standards to keep out the women? And of course gays and lesbians. Does your book even discuss whether lesbians function better is large cohesive groups, or did you just assume that all women have the same mental make-up?

Psychological studies are great, but as has been pointed out before, psychological studies have been produced in the past to justify all sorts of discrimination or bizarre theories. Did your book discuss any studies that might suggest the opposite of your conclusions? Do any exist? or did you just cherry-pick those that support your contention?
12.7.2007 5:14pm
frankcross (mail):
Well, I think that the conclusion may be the right one. Though I don't think his dismissal of the "social meaning" sits well, because one large post was substantially devoted to males' reaction to the "social meaning" of gender, independent of inherent aptitude. I think the argument would be stronger without that claim.

Perhaps the best argument would be that even if screening could work theoretically, it would not work in practice.
12.7.2007 5:27pm
GEORGE LARSON (mail):
Why discriminate against the aged?, past history and money. The armed forces know what kind of people get through their training programs and who doesn't. They also know who actually completes their enlistment.

It costs money just to in process a candidate for training and it would be waste of funds unless he completes training. I also expect the elderly would have a high rate of medical failure too.

If they need an older person for his skills why not hire them as a civilian employee or contractor?

Yes, they do exactly that right now and always have: "it's okay to lower standards whenever you need men, but that you need really really high standards to keep out the women?"
12.7.2007 5:39pm
Gary Anderson (mail):
That does not mean that my inferences and conclusions are correct, of course, but it does mean that I didn’t make them up out of whole cloth.

Thank you. Now please, go sit down. Someone show Mr. Kingsley to his seat?

I know some Anderson girls -- well fed, well bred -- I'm sure would disagree with your logic. It seems you make presumptions, then disqualify based on your presumptions.

Gender-neutral physical and mental tests are the way to go if we want our forces to be competitive, and know what they're fighting for. Loyalty to comrade knows no gender boundaries if you know they are capable of covering your ass.

Arguing from teh Israeli army experience is a bit like understanding NASCAR based on how well you did in driving school. Americans think and act differently than Israelis -- why always those who would lump our forces together?
12.7.2007 5:57pm
Kingsley Browne (mail):
A couple of quick points and I'll be quiet:

RandyR: I'm sorry. I guess I didn't make the age point very clear. The age limitations that I mentioned are in fact "rules." The reason that I said that it would be extremely difficult (as opposed to impossible) is that it is possible in rare circumstances to obtain waivers from the rules.

frankcross: I would not characterize my earlier posts about men's reactions to women as resting on "social meaning." I believe that the way that men and women react to and interact with each other — while certainly not immune to social influences — is strongly influenced by our innate psychologies. Certainly, sexual attraction is, and, as I mentioned in the earlier post, I believe that trust in the context of dangerous enterprises is, as well.
12.7.2007 6:27pm
frankcross (mail):
That might be, but I am familiar with considerable evidence that we statistically significantly have less trust in those of different races. Fortunately, we did not let that get in the way of integrating the armed forces.
12.7.2007 6:55pm
tvk:
"sex differences relevant to military service exist irrespective of what we think about them"

Yes, but many of your arguments depend not on biological differences in the sexes, but rather social attitudes toward the sexes. For example, you justified the inference that women would be less courageous in combat and more fearful not only on innate biology, but also social conditioning. You can't have it both ways. If the only way you get around the race-analogy argument is innate biology, then your justifications must rest on innate biology alone.

And if it is innate biology that you are talking about, that links with the individualized testing argument. Your points about social attitudes, unit moral, trust and reliance, etc. all go out the window because they apply equally to race. The only differences that you can claim based on innate biology that is not applicable to race are (1) women are less strong; and (2) women are less brave.

I agree that women are less strong. But that is easily tested individually.

I am skeptical about your claim that women are less brave. Your empirical evidence on this point seems particularly shaky. Again, the evidence on the other side (both sexes are equally brave) is also shaky, but again you bear the burden of proof because you are the one making the affirmative claim.
12.7.2007 7:36pm
New Pseudonym (mail):

today the military has a very difficult time recruiting new people.


Sources, please. Do you understand the difference between the Army and the military?
12.7.2007 7:39pm
MarkField (mail):
Is anyone else annoyed by the fact that Browne continues, apparently willfully, to misstate the analogy to race discrimination?

Also, it's just plain false to say that "racial segregation in the military had nothing to do with the biology of race". Anyone at all familiar with the history of this issue knows that the argument was made that blacks genetically lacked the necessities (as Al Campanis might say) to be soldiers.
12.7.2007 7:58pm
KH:
My comment is why write this book? Why now? Where is the controversy? Is there a current movement to increase the role of women in combat roles? Is there an agenda being pushed by anyone in this area right now -- one with any legs? As a woman that spent 11 years in the Army (airborne, jumpmaster, combat-support), I am afraid that your posts and your book, while logical and probably correct on all points, doesn't need to be written. To me, it seems like an excuse to point out all of the differences between men and women, and in a light that is negative to women. It is likely rewarding to be able to make an argument so thoroughly and so thoughtfully but you could have easily written a book about why the voting age shouldn't be lowered to 16. Why this? Why now? Why gender?
12.7.2007 8:19pm
Dave D. (mail):
...Wht not now ? The vernier has been sliding towards women in combat units for a long time. When better to explore it than before the decision is made ?
...All you folks who want objective testing and equal treatment accorded women in the Military, Police and Fire services never stood up when the rig-a-girl-a-job corp was installing disparate standards for men and women. You never objected to 'Goals' morphing into 'Quotas'. Where were you when women were promoted for their gender ?
...Don't tell me you want equal treatment while you define that term as anything but identical standards.
12.7.2007 8:41pm
Pyrrhus (mail) (www):
"Anyone at all familiar with the history of this issue knows that the argument was made that blacks genetically lacked the necessities (as Al Campanis might say) to be soldiers."

That doesn't mean the argument was correct. Browne, assumedly, would say that he is making a correct argument, not just an argument.
12.7.2007 10:39pm
MarkField (mail):
No, he's denying that the biology argument was ever made regarding blacks: "racial segregation in the military had nothing to do with the biology of race". He's not saying "that argument was false but mine is true", he's saying "that argument was never made". It was.
12.7.2007 11:02pm
LBG:
No MarkField, he is saying that it had nothing to do w/ biology, but rather w/ social feelings, but the argument to justify it was a biological one. The reason for it was the social feelings of the whites.

He mistates racial argument or analogy? Not at all. But sure, women are segregated from the NFL unnecessarily. They can certainly play as well. Just like having blacks QB now a days has shown how fullish the racist stigma was to not let blacks QB, we can say that women are being held out of professional football, not for their innate lack of playing ability, but simply because men don't like women. So if we are willing to let women in combat, let's make a woman the left guard blocking for your favorite team's QB!! Yes, so that's just a game, but how can we be so cavalier when so much more is at stake. You all are not being honest. But I welcome you all to step on the field of battle and put your lives in the hands of ALL these amazingly here to for unseen super strong amazonian women.
12.8.2007 1:27am
George W. Obama (mail):

Anyone at all familiar with the history of this issue knows that the argument was made that blacks genetically lacked the necessities (as Al Campanis might say) to be soldiers.



Yes, but this claim was false. On the other hand, there really are real differences between men and women. Which is the point.
12.8.2007 2:52am
Gary Anderson (mail):
Joan.............of.................Arc.

And please outline your military experience, Mr. Kingsley Browne. Specifically, United States military experience.

As I understand it, any personal trust baggage brought in is conditioned out of you as you learn to work and think as a team. So if you were a racial bigot in th 50s, 60s and 70s -- as surely many were so conditioned -- this was overcome through enforcing unit discipline.

If the soldiers are individually tested and qualified to be there based on their proven skills and psychology, I have more confidence than Mr. Kingsley in the US military training that it won't be so easily undercut by earlier preferences or background baggage.
12.8.2007 6:02am
Gary Anderson (mail):
LBG and Obama:

Better if the individuals are tested for strength, agility, and marksmanship, and grace under pressure.

Sadly, there are plenty of American men who don't measure up physically or mentally. And you will have women who qualify.

Why would you want our sons to serve alongside weaker males rather than letting a qualified woman serve?

Mr. Browne's arguments are hogwash in that you want the best people alongside of you in combat; there's no time or inclination to think about the person's sexual attractiveness or desire to protect based on gender, rather than based on unit loyalty.

Females don't play in the NFL because physically they are not qualified, not one individually could play at that level. Perhaps the same would be true if military combat was still a club and spear game.
12.8.2007 6:14am
David Chesler (mail) (www):
Several commenters suggested that the arguments made in my posts are illegitimate if they would be unacceptable if “race” were substituted for “sex.” Acceptance of that argument would lead to the conclusion that the Women’s National Basketball Association, sex-segregated bathrooms, and women’s colleges are examples of apartheid.

Corvettes are cooler than Mustangs because they have more letters in their respective names. Anyone who points out that this is a silly reason must think that Huffy is cooler than Specialized, and it's clearly not, therefore the longer name of the Corvette is a contributing factor to why it's cooler than the Mustang, independent of whether plastic cars are cooler than metal cars, and even if you demonstrate that metal cars are cooler, Corvettes would still be cooler than Mustangs because they have longer names.
12.8.2007 8:50am
Skyler (mail) (www):
Gary, combat is still very much a club and spear activity. We still put bayonets on our rifles for a good reason.

No, you would not find any women, or almost no women, who would qualify.

Yes, any, or almost any, healthy male would qualify. That's how it's designed to work.
12.8.2007 8:53am
LBG:
Gary have you followed what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan? Please, read "Not a Good Day to Die" about Operation Anaconda. These MEN had to hike, run under fire, take ground, pull their buddies out of tight spaces, AND they had to do this in some cases while earning and keeping the trust of the Afghani men.

Michael Yon, an excellent combat writer, and former SF soldier talks of the Sargent Major getting into a hand to hand situation with blood dripping down to save his Colonel. Two men froze up, a Sargent and a Lieutenant. For men to not perform there will be a come to Jesus moment back in the group about those men. Nobody will want to patrol w/ them due to their cowardice. They will be treated as untrusted members as they earned that distinction. Those men have no recourse but to buck up or leave units or get killed. Women on the other hand can and have filed sexual harassment cases for being shunned. There goes your unit integrity and team fabric. So, if we can be honest about women not being qualified for the NFL, why not when it REALLY matters? We are not club and spear, but we are 85 to 100 lb rucks, marching, etc. Remember, the alpha males are the ones that go into these units. They bond differently when women are not around. If women are around there would be SH complaints filed all the time. Once again, team shot to hell. Men can handle another men that endangers the team. We can not handle women as we get in trouble.

Oh yeah, testing for grace under pressure. We've already stopped yelling at women. We can call men pu$$ie$ in the presence of women, we can't call men women's names or question their manhood in front of women as the women file complaints. It's "sexist," we hear. And then since we have reduced the pressure provided by DI's, etc, how do we provide pressure? I have seen women break down and cry under pressure in the field. If a man did that, he'd be thumped verbally. Can't be done w/ a woman. It becomes a hostile working environment. Lawsuit, no team again.
12.8.2007 8:57am
Wondering Willy (mail):
Thank you for the excellent posts. Please ignore the peanut gallery.
12.8.2007 9:51am
Jeremy Pierce (mail) (www):
It's not exactly uncontroversial that race has a biological basis. In fact, it's almost universally denied by anyone who is informed. It's true that the social practices that have determined racial categories have done so by picking out biological traits as the ones that we use to identify and classify people racially, but that's a far cry from the categories themselves having a biological basis. That's pretty much refuted by modern genetics.
12.8.2007 11:44am
MarkField (mail):

No MarkField, he is saying that it had nothing to do w/ biology, but rather w/ social feelings, but the argument to justify it was a biological one. The reason for it was the social feelings of the whites.


No, that's NOT what he said. Since it's in black and white above, I'll leave it to everyone to read it and judge for themselves.


He mistates racial argument or analogy? Not at all. But sure, women are segregated from the NFL unnecessarily. They can certainly play as well. Just like having blacks QB now a days has shown how fullish the racist stigma was to not let blacks QB, we can say that women are being held out of professional football, not for their innate lack of playing ability, but simply because men don't like women. So if we are willing to let women in combat, let's make a woman the left guard blocking for your favorite team's QB!! Yes, so that's just a game, but how can we be so cavalier when so much more is at stake. You all are not being honest. But I welcome you all to step on the field of battle and put your lives in the hands of ALL these amazingly here to for unseen super strong amazonian women.


Now you're misstating the argument also. You know, you guys on Browne's side are doing yourselves no favors. I've said repeatedly in these threads that I'm on the fence on this issue. When you make bad arguments or use insulting language, you're not only less likely to convince people like me, you're more likely to tip me in the other direction.
12.8.2007 1:24pm
George W. Obama (mail):

I've said repeatedly in these threads that I'm on the fence on this issue.



That's exactly why we treat you like a compulsive liar.
12.8.2007 1:43pm
Gary Anderson (mail):
I suspect there's not much combat experience in this thread.
12.8.2007 5:29pm
stukinirak (mail):
Mr. Browne's arguments are hogwash in that you want the best people alongside of you in combat; there's no time or inclination to think about the person's sexual attractiveness or desire to protect based on gender, rather than based on unit loyalty.

I don't disagree with this, but when I've been hit by an IED and am pinned in the wreckage I still would prefer my buddy, Jake, be there grabbing me by the IBA and yanking me out of the fire than the vast majority of the women I serve with. I do not think this is an unreasonable sentiment.
12.9.2007 5:05am
Gary Anderson (mail):
Nor do you dispute my preference that in the end, it doesn't matter if Big Bertha pulls you out -- because she's physically qualified to be there-- while your preferred Jacob with the penis cowers in the corner after losing his lunch because he never really bought into that undivided loyalty to comrades bit much anyway.

Catch my drift? ;-)
Be careful about swinging that "I trust who *I* trust" mentality. That gets taken out of you pretty quickly, as I understand it.

And the U.S. military does not need to take pointers from well meaning, but ultimately untested forces that don't share our cultural heritage and traditions.
12.9.2007 5:48am
Gary Anderson (mail):
In fact, the most valuable information in these threads appear to be the realization that other forces might use the US military experience when they are ready to begin integrating their forces ethnically and racially.

Some say our *non-purity* so to speak is the source of the country's strengths. Land of Opportunity and all that. Judge an individual on his merits, not on some pre-ordained notion of who some trust is chosen or not.
12.9.2007 5:52am
LBG:
Well, in a decade of military experience with ground and sea going forces, I've yet to meet "Big Bertha." You happy speakers keep talking as if America is laden with these female defensive backs running 4.4 40's and benching 300 lbs. Yet, in all my time PT'ing w/ women, they were slower, broke more and there were more female sick bay commandos than male ones. And the male ones were shamed into getting out there. The Brits tried keeping the physical standards the same and they ended up with broken women. Ligaments, muscles torn, bones broken. Hell, my friend is a physical trainer and the physical requirements of hawling bodies in the field end up breaking her back. She was standing at port arms, holding a weapon when her back gave way. Three surgeries later, she was out.

The women I know that can run forever, can not do it under a ruck sack and are small in stature. There is what you'd like to achieve then there is reality. Women can be left in support roles and will get promoted reasonably high in accordance with their experience. I've seen oh so many of the scenarios Prof Browne has discussed in his book. I've seen not ONE advantage to having women at sea or in the field with me. Yes, they did their job. Better than a man? No. As well as a man in some cases? Yes, but did their presence there out weigh the special concerns and problems they brought with them? Nope, I'd have rather had a man as he would have been easier to deal with, AND, if I yell at him for not doing his job, I'm not concerned with a sexual harassment complaint either. You think THAT doesn't happen? Think again. Keep them in support, keep them out of combat.
12.9.2007 11:01am
ALS:

I suspect there's not much combat experience in this thread.


Care to share your background that provides so much wisdom about what the Armed Forces need, and how they differ from those of other countries?

Here's some historical footage to illustrate everyone's concern:
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=59648&fr=

Notice the figure in a big bottom running away at 0:34 or so? That's a female firefighter, partially out of her silversuit because it was "too hot" that day. Notice the gaggle of men, not in silversuits, immediately grabbing hoses and running toward the fire, and standing there next to it waiting for the hoses to charge, e.g. from 2:07 to 2:49? I bet the crews in the two aircraft on fire would have appreciated help unstrapping, but the lady wasn't there.
12.9.2007 1:16pm
Skyler (mail) (www):
Run towards the flames. Training works. I'm impressed at how fast those men started fighting the fire.

The comment about the female fire fighter is not quite fair. I agree that women shouldn't be firemen, but the fact that she was out of her suit is not only a personal failing, but it is also a command failing. She should not have been allowed to be out of her protective equipment. Men have been known to be unprepared too.

I wonder where she went? Is there more to the story? I don't see a fire hose coming out of where she jumped down.
12.9.2007 1:48pm
ALS:
Skyler,

That's all I know about the firefighting aspect. The crash was a T-2 Buckeye under the control of a SNA doing initial CQs, and is dated Oct. 29, 1989, aboard USS Lexington. The clip is shown at Pensacola as an illustration of adverse yaw at high AOA resulting in OCF roll opposite the direction commanded.
12.9.2007 2:09pm