Which Law Schools Outrank the Undergraduate Institutions With Which They're Affiliated?
Paul Caron has the data, based on the U.S. News rankings.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Which Law Schools Rank Below the Undergraduate Institutions with Which They're Affiliated?
- Which Law Schools Outrank the Undergraduate Institutions With Which They're Affiliated?
Surprises me.
Actually, I found those numbers really interesting, as well as Ted Frank's comment about them. Justwonderingby, did you not find them interesting, or is it just that anything on the general topic of U.S. News rankings is objectionable to you?
The potentially uneven distribution of colleges without law schools would inevitably distort the percentages in some way. To really understand this phenomenon, you would first have to exclude all schools without law schools, and then do the relative comparison.
He did the ranking based on percentiles, not actual numerical ranking. That should do address what you think is a flaw in the comparison, at least to some extent (although, perhaps not entirely if there is some reason to believe the ratio of national universities w/o law schools to ones w/ is disproportionately higher in the higher ranks)
What would be surprising is if you look at all the difference departments of a school, both grad and undergrad and find all of them strangely ranked the same. THAT would be fishy!
This is about as useful as a list of restaurants whose steak is more highly rated than it's seafood. Who cares? If you want steak, go to a place that makes good steak. If you want seafood, go where the fish is good. If you want both, pick a place where they do both well.
"Their steak is mediocre, but it's a lot better than their fish." is a terrible reason to choose a steakhouse.
The more appropriate comparison is between Rutgers - Newark and Camden Law Schools and Rutgers - New Brunswick undergraduate.
Randy: Uh-oh! You've raised an issue that gets me going.
I am a Notre Dame alumnus. ND ranks in the bottom of the "USNWR Top Twenty" for national universities. We are in a forver-rotating dance with Rice, Vandy, and Emory for #s 17-20.
So the ND admin makes a big deal of the Top-Twenty status. (I'll give them some slack: Anyone would do so in the current climate of academia.) But we are not a large state university. So we have a couple advantageson the undergrad-ranking level: First, we can reject large numbers of applicants, and demand high SATs from those who want admission; second, we can charnge BIG BUCKS to attend.
The first of those bumps us way up in the rankings, since we are "most selective." The second allows us to SPEND much more per pupil than most other universitties. This, too, boosts us in the rankings.
As a result, USNWR ranks us ABOVE Michigan, Berkeley, UVa, and UNC. Does this make any sense to anyone? The faculty are incredibly smug about the status of the institution. But our programs in science would rank third IN THE STATE OF INDIANA, if anyone judged things that way. And who would want to compare our English, Music, Languages, History, etc. Departments to IU's? Let alone U of M's?
Lots of people complain about the rankings, attacking the selection criteria and so forth. And the response tends to be: Ha, you just don't like your alma mater's low rank. Well, you heard it here first: My university is really, really good at some things. And quite strong at many. But it ain't Michigan or Berkeley; or even Wisconsin--one of the most under-rated research universities in the US. And any ranking system that says it's BETTER than the great public institutions is showing itself to be a less-interesting version of People Magazine.
Also Sprach Hoosier
I am guessing that in your proposal, UF wouldn't do so well.
Last year:
Football #1
BBall #1
UnderGrad: #49
Law: #47
...uhhh, I blame USNWR systematic gatorism. And Joakim Noah.
Not to me. Although it's hardly a bad school of course.
There is a world of difference!
In order to maximize the benefit of these assumptions, you would want to consider a school near the top of Prof Caron's list.
If you plan on practicing locally, there is no need to transfer. However, if you want to practice in LA, DC, New York, etc., it is extremely difficult to get a job without having a nationally known school on your resume.
Picking the bottom-ranked "trade school" because you "want to actually practice law" is counter-intuitive, to put it mildly. Other things being equal, the higher ranked the law school, the better the chances its graduates have of getting a job that involves practicing law. If your bottom-ranked trade school is outperforming much higher ranked schools at job placement, there's probably something hidden or incomplete about the statistics at that school or the comparator schools.
I'd suggest looking at the websites of the firms where you think you might like to practice and see where their attorneys come from.
1) 'Encouraging' students who aren't 'actively searching' for a job to self-identify as 'not searching'.
2) Giving unemployed students mickey mouse jobs for the sole purpose of beefing up the rankings. Mysteriously, the projects are short-term and dry up once those students no longer count in the rankings.
3) Listing only one student as studying the bar, instead of the real number [This is how UTexas had its ranking debacle last year].
4) Steering people into one year fellowships
5) Encouraging students to inflate their salary by counting salary + benefits.
These are not the prestigious jobs that my friends from undergrad wanted to land. But if I wanted political power in Chicago--which can be a very, um, 'rewarding' career path--I would NOT go to Yale for law school.
Makes sense to me. I think undergraduate education is a joke in general, and almost everyone would get a better education at a small liberal arts school. However, absent a compelling argument to the contrary, selectivity and cost seem to be the best measures of a school's merit to me. If it costs a lot, but people still really want to go there, it must be good, right?
As for U of M vs. ND...
As an in-state applicant, U of M seemed relatively unselective. Top 25% or more of my high school class could have gotten in. As for ND, probably closer to 10%. In state students account for around 1/3 of Michigan's class, I believe, and there's a significant disparity between the requirements for in-state and out-of-state students. But, still...
I'm shocked to discover that you'd consider ND's programs inferior to IU's, especially when it comes to undergraduate education. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that IU had more significant research, or was competitive in the sciences, but English? Really?
I should clarify. I think that the educational value of the typical state-school undergraduate program could be had for the cost of the books, and in some cases, lab fees.
The signaling value is much higher.
Of course, most law schools will tell you that they do not give preference to graduates of their parent institution's undergraduate programs. However, who really knows what goes on in the minds of the members of the application committees. Some amount of homerism may seep into their decisions whether they want it to or not.
A friend of mine just received tenure at Wayne State U. in (shiver) Detroit. So I had a look at the websites of a few departments. Again, as a frame of reference, the faculty publication records were every bit as good, on average, as those of ND. So the price differential may not be completely justified.
That would depend on how quickly the law school/bar admission became ADA compliant.
"Can it be bought the same way athletic pre-eminence can be?"
No, lack of ADA compliance cannot be 'bought-off.' The disabled people will sue.
In all seriousness, Detroit is an under-rated town. It's got its bad parts, but there are some wonderfully cool things there.
And Hoosier, man do we have different ideas of what constitutes a quality education, especially undergraduate education. I don't view the quality or quantity of publications by faculty as an important factor. I mean, what differentiates the Introduction to Macroeconomic Theory classes at Michigan and Wayne St. Probably nothing, except for the ability of your classmates.