The Volokh Conspiracy

I sincerely hope he gets the nomination. Not wearing a flag pin will resonate throughout the South and West and he will sweep to an electoral victory.

I'm not sure when reducing our flag to a pin or plastic car accessory became a sign of respect for the nation and its values. But I think that's exactly backwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKDwTJwZvlk

Also, lets face it, there is no way that Obama can overcome Hillary's commanding lead in the polls at this point.

One question: who was ahead in Dem polls in October 2003? Famous last words.

"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest," Obama said in the interview. "Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testament to my patriotism."

Obama feels that telling us what he thinks will make the country great is an effective replacement for wearing the pin, which is an admittedly superficial way of displaying patriotism. Question: is the country not already great? Has the lack of the right kind of national health-care system, or the involvement in Iraq, or the subprime mortgage thing, or some combination of issues, prevented America from being great? Apparently Obama thinks so. But I would say national greatness is an issue by itself and not dependent on such immediate issues.

VC Rita,

I would not be devastated if Obama won the primary. After all, I did support him before I switched to Hillary. But I am pretty darn sure that he is cooked. Hillary is too careful to make a major mistake and there has not been movement in the polls. Also, Obama once had a fundraising advantage, but that is long gone. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Nonetheless, I think friendly (and I emphasize friendly) competition between the Democratic candidates until the end of the primary does no harm.

As long as all of you Obama supporters coalesce around Hillary in a friendly sort of way after the primary. =)

Fundraising advantage? They're at virtual parity, each with the ability to completely blanket NH and IA with ads come primary season. It's exactly this inside-baseball magnification of small differences that has gotten on my nerves as the Beltway CW anoints Hillary months before any vote has been cast. What exactly was the difference between what H and O said about meeting with other countries' leaders, and who seized upon a nonsensical distinction as proof that the other was "naive"? Friendly competition indeed.

Besides, can you even imagine 20k people showing up to see Hillary talk at Wash Sq Park like they did for Obama last week? It sounds laughable even though this is the state she represents in the Senate!

I initially supported Obama. But it is pretty clear that Hillary has the nomination tied up, so I have decided to switch to her as well. Democrats need to be united in this upcoming election.

Please, not this again. There's really no evidence that difficult primary campaigns somehow damage candidates in the general election. Turning the primary campaign into "Follow the Leader", on the other hand, pointlessly skews polls and subverts the primaries' power to select good candidates. Democrats tried to likewise game the primaries in 2004, and we were thus given John Kerry, who successfully lost a quite winnable election.

Pick the candidate you like! Think about the issues! Talk to your friends! Get into arguments in bars! But if you really don't care who's nominated as long as they're not Rudy Giuliani, then don't pretend you have anything to say; just wait for the general election and take who you get.

I'm not going to vote or not vote for any candidate because of a stupid freaking flag pin!

Since when have we reduced our national debate on who will be our next president to a junior high school student body president competition!

I mean seriously, we're more concerned with Hilary's cackle, Edwards' hair, Thompson's musky English looks, Romney's tight-jawed clean-cut face, and now Obama's silly pin! Can we get anymore silly?

VC Rita:

“You campaign with the skin color you have, not the one you wished you had, no?”

He campaigns on his skin color. If he did not have the skin color he has, he would not be campaigning. If you don’t think so, then you must believe he has some other special qualification. If so what is it?

“Do you believe that if Clarence Thomas's parents were white, he would be a Supreme Court justice?”

No. Thomas rode the affirmative action pony.

Instead of being a calculated political calculation, I think Obama simply views the flag lapel pins as more jingoistic than patriotic, so he doesn't wear one.

As others have pointed out, the more shrewd longterm political move would be to wear the stupid pin, but he sticks by his convictions.

That's one reason I like Obama.

I thought that the comments so far were far more thoughtful than this:

Liberals think of the flag pin as part of Bush's attempt to sort of snooker the country through misdirection. They think Bush uses his patriotism as a way of getting people to stop paying attention while he ruins the country. I totally DO NOT agree with this, but I can recognize what Obama is doing: Sending a signal to liberals that he too is sick of Bush.

I think that's right. Of course, it may or may not work, but I gather that's the strategy.

Serious BDS. And if Obama were suffering BDS as badly as this author, then I would be worried. Maybe playing to the BDS crowd a bit, but...

I somewhat agree with this from PD:

Instead of being a calculated political calculation, I think Obama simply views the flag lapel pins as more jingoistic than patriotic, so he doesn't wear one.

As others have pointed out, the more shrewd longterm political move would be to wear the stupid pin, but he sticks by his convictions.

There are a lot of symbolic things that politicians have to do to get elected, ranging from kissing babies through eating all sorts of horrid stuff. Much of it is so that voters can identify with the candidate.

There are many on one side of the debate who agree with PD about wearing the pin being jingoistic. But many, probably a majority in this country, do not. You see them every day with some sort of ribbon on the bumpers of their cars or wearing this sort of pin. They really believe in this sort of thing. Many of those who take PD's position think that they are smarter, more sophisticated, etc. because they see through this.

I should also note that the use of the word "jingoistic" is in itself quite value laden. It seems to imply a "sophisticated" internationalist world view that looks down on single country allegiances and any sort of patriotic displays.

So, what Obama has done by making such a big deal out of this is to appeal to the "sophisticates" who believe this to be jingoism, at the cost of appearing to look down upon and disparage the beliefs of all those who do buy in.

Much better to have not worn the pin, but to pretend that it was inadvertent and if cornered, claim patriotism, solidarity, etc., but that this sort of gesture is such a minor thing for him that it gets easily forgotten in the heat of the campaign. But, of course, that approach would work with the general election, and he is worried about the nomination, which is why he is playing to the "sophisticates" who disdain this sort of jingoistic gesture.

PD - I am trying to make clear here that I don't attribute any of this to you personally. I don't know you or your beliefs. Rather, I was merely using your comments as a jumping off point.

For those shrieking about how Obama is making an issue of this and how it really shows what he's all about, how about going back and reading the original story? It plainly states that he was asked by a reporter why he wasn't wearing the pin. What was he supposed to do, say "It clashes with my tie"? "I left it on my other suit"?

Well, there are two ways of thinking about this. The first is good, let the Republicans get this crap out of their system now and then we can have a good discussion about what patriotism is and requires. The second is that we are in for even worse as they dig down into the slimier parts of their id to avoid confronting reality.

First Jim Webb and now Obama are starting to talk about what real patriotism requires, and folks, wearing a pin, flying a flag and painting your house red white and blue (if the neighborhood association allows it, and if they don't they are a bunch of communist traitors) is not even a part of it. It is this attempt to have a real debate on issues that makes Obama an interesting candidate. Of course as we all know, the only thing he does is campaign on his skin color.

I don't think Obama is intending to make a commentary on the patriotism of persons who fly the flag, display a yellow ribbon, or engage in similar symbolic gestures. I think it is specifically about the sincerity of politicians who wear the flag pin.

I consider myself a patriot, I display the flag proudly, but there's nothing that disgusts me more than hypocritical politicians who wrap themselves in the flag at every opportunity. This whole thing doesn't make me any more likely to support Obama, but he's certainly right that nothing about wearing a flag pin makes a politician any more likely to be sincere or patriotic.

I live in DC and wear a suit nearly everyday. Originally, I was somewhat aloof to the flag lapel custom. But once I heard and realized it was associated with Bush/Rove, I shunned it

I lived and worked in DC for nearly two years after 9/11. Flag pins were very common then. Most of the people I worked with -- in a part of the government infested with Democrats -- "wore the flag" with pride.

I'm glad to hear from Obama, fnook et al. that liberals are once again becoming unafraid of hiding their contempt for the vast majority of us Americans. It will make it a lot easier to retake Congress in 2008.

I think the Presidency is already a wrap after reading what the dimocrat candidates have been coming up with. The red meat they're now throwing to their left-wing, anti-American base is going to come back at them in the general election like a returned cream pie in a Three Stooges skit.

Also, I don't even want to get into the "Obama doesn't wear a flag pin therefore Obama must hate America/Real Americans"

When reality starts to mirror parody, there needs to be a little self examination.

"...I can recognize what Obama is doing: Sending a signal to liberals that he too is sick of Bush."

Is there really a need to be this subtle in conveying one being "sick of Bush."

Who isn't?

When the biggest issue of the day is the secret torture memos out of the justice department, go to Balkinization and get interesting discussion of the matter. Come over to Volokh for another opinion, and instead get multiple posts and myriad comments on the "Obama flag-pin flap".

Admittedly, however, the Seinfeld Ribbon scenes have made it all worthwhile.

There are many of us in this country who were openly and vehemently against patriotism before it became so oppressively fashionable after 9/11. I'll confess what I think is true of most liberals in this country: I am more than capable of approvingly quoting the remarks below one day and being offended the next day when someone seems to question my patriotism.

"Patriotism, the virtue of the vicious." ~Oscar Wilde

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." ~Albert Einstein

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." ~George Bernard Shaw

"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons." ~Bertrand Russell

"Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit."

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." -Samuel Johnson

Man, I cannot believe how many people are missing the boat on this. Of course, nobody elects a president solely on the question of whether or not they wear a flag pin. That is just a silly red herring.

The point is broader. People want a president with an optimistic, "morning in America" message. Someone who seems enthusiastic and sincere in their love of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Someone who convincingly conveys a "eternal American renewal" message. A candidate with a dour, "George Bush has soiled the flag and therefore I cannot wear it" message is simply doomed. It's like Jimmy Carter's "reduced expectations" on steriods!

Only the BDS crowd will respond to this complicated, double entendre patriotism. It is just plain stupid; he may as well hand Hilary the stick to beat him with. At this point in the campaign, no nuance is going to get through. All people are going to hear is "Obama has a problem with the flag?? Huh?"

erics -- indeed. they're really saying that if you don't wear a flag pin, then you're showing "contempt for the vast majority of Americans".

Nobody believes this. Quit throwing up strawmen.

Really?

I'm glad to hear from Obama, fnook et al. that liberals are once again becoming unafraid of hiding their contempt for the vast majority of us Americans.

What exactly are we saying then when we say that Obama isn't patriotic and has contempt for Americans because he believes wearing a flag pin has become a shallow exercise.

one hoping to be President should certainly not espouse the idea that he will stand there and be the representative of this country-that would be unsophisticated. is the flag cheap symbolism-too bad but that is what you are being elected to represent. BO brought this on himself-it will probably be a big hit at moveon.org and kos and maybe to the 19% of Democrats hoping for a loss in Iraq. as to the rest of the country (ie. the boobs), not so much.

The well named Bottomfish asks about the source of Obama's partriotism. Henri enquires about his optimism. Let us recall the opening of his 2004 nominating speech for John Kerry (I know, boo hiss)

Tonight is a particular honor for me because, let’s face it, my presence on this stage is pretty unlikely. My father was a foreign student, born and raised in a small village in Kenya. He grew up herding goats, went to school in a tin-roof shack. His father -- my grandfather -- was a cook, a domestic servant to the British.

But my grandfather had larger dreams for his son. Through hard work and perseverance my father got a scholarship to study in a magical place, America, that shone as a beacon of freedom and opportunity to so many who had come before.

While studying here, my father met my mother. She was born in a town on the other side of the world, in Kansas. Her father worked on oil rigs and farms through most of the Depression. The day after Pearl Harbor my grandfather signed up for duty; joined Patton’s army, marched across Europe. Back home, my grandmother raised a baby and went to work on a bomber assembly line. After the war, they studied on the G.I. Bill, bought a house through F.H.A., and later moved west all the way to Hawaii in search of opportunity.

And they, too, had big dreams for their daughter. A common dream, born of two continents.

My parents shared not only an improbable love, they shared an abiding faith in the possibilities of this nation. They would give me an African name, Barack, or ”blessed,” believing that in a tolerant America your name is no barrier to success. They imagined -- They imagined me going to the best schools in the land, even though they weren’t rich, because in a generous America you don’t have to be rich to achieve your potential.

They're both passed away now. And yet, I know that on this night they look down on me with great pride.

They stand here -- And I stand here today, grateful for the diversity of my heritage, aware that my parents’ dreams live on in my two precious daughters. I stand here knowing that my story is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who came before me, and that, in no other country on earth, is my story even possible.

I know, keynote speech at the convention.

I personally never wore a flag pin (despite being surrounded by people who did after 9/11), and I consider myself very patriotic. Therefore, it does not surprise (or offend) me that Obama wasn't wearing a pin.

However, if I were running for political office, then I probably put the flag pin on sometimes. I view it as akin to kissing babies and shaking hands (i.e., a small gesture that every politician makes). It baffles me that Obama made the comment that he made. He could have said something like, "Oh...I just didn't wear one today," but no, he turned not wearing a flag pin into a symbolic statement.

RE: Ron Paul

I like him. At the very least he's interesting. Some of his policies are a little to extreme for me to stomach (RE: the gold standard and isolationism and absolutely gutting the federal government) But on a substantial number of issues I agree with at least slightly more moderate versions of his policies.

"Sending a signal to liberals that he too is sick of Bush"

Gee, Orin, (and bla bla) you all think that Liberals didnt already know that? and Obama had to wear a flag pin to prove it? Come on--I think you ought to stick to constitutional law and stay out of political "analysis"! :)

Obama's problem in this story isn't the pin, it's his mouth.

So wearing the flag pin is a substitute for 'true patriotism'? Translated that means that those who wear the flag pin are phoney patriots?

Obama has stepped in it big time.

Given that 40% of Democrats in a very recent poll indicated they either wanted the USA to lose the war in Iraq or didn't know if they wanted the USA to win or lose, he's appealing to the liberal hate america first base of the democrat party.

He's also appealing to those far left black extremists who refuse to stand for the pledge of allegience or star spangled banner or to salute the flag. These are the extremists who have listened to their own victimhood excessive nonsense to the point that they believe their own BS and state the USA doesn't represent them and isn't for them, blah, blah, blah. Note they don't get the heck out of the USA and go somewhere they think is better, they just want to stay here (because there is no place better)and try to maintain power, money, and prestige by professing their hate for the USA, its institutions, and the white devils all around them.

Barrack Hussein Obama is a long time active member of a black separatist church and such places are one of the breeding grounds for the people described in the preceeding paragraph. I don't know if BHO is a true hater of the USA, but at a minimum he is seeking the support of those who do.

Note to Orin: Fox News isn't a flag waving right wing network. Fair and balanced right down the middle. They just look right wing to those so used to the far left wing organizations that pass as the "mainstream media".

Says the "Dog"

Having read both comment threads and resisted commenting until now, Bruce Hayden's analysis is spot on and the best on either thread.

What is amazing is the contempt I see in some comments about displays of patriotism--as if overtly showing patriotism is something that only those evil Republicans do (a Rovian conspiracy to deflect attention? Give me a break).

I think this is a trivial issue but the rationalization of Obama's response reminded me of Michael Dukakis' response when asked about his veto of a Massachusetts bill requiring students to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Intellectual and vaguely patronizing (though not as patronizing as some comments here).

The contempt many in the left have toward mainstream America is one reason liberals often lose elections--and then don't quite understand how that happened.

Much better to have not worn the pin, but to pretend that it was inadvertent and if cornered, claim patriotism, solidarity, etc., but that this sort of gesture is such a minor thing for him that it gets easily forgotten in the heat of the campaign.

Obama doesn't think that it should be compulsory for politicians to wear flag pins. Your advice to him is to leave the pin at home, but "if cornered," claim it was a mistake. You want him, in other words, to reinforce the idea that pin-wearing is, and should be, compulsory for politicians.

I don't see anything wrong with wearing a flag pin if you're running for president. I do see something wrong with the idea that you must wear a flag pin if you're running for president --- with the idea that if you don't choose to do so, you're refusing to do so, and that you're revealing your contempt for America, or the majority of voters, or whatever. I suspect that Obama feels similarly.

Here's my question to all of you who think he's wrong to refuse to wear the pin --- where does it stop? Where and how can a politician who objects to ostentatious, coercive displays of patriotism draw the line?

If political conservatives can keep inventing new markers of patriotism, and if liberals must embrace those markers or be deemed unpatriotic, isn't that just a dominance game? Isn't the wearing of a flag pin transformed, in that dynamic, into a ritual act of submission?

If I'm at a ballgame, and they play the national anthem, I'll stand. Always have, and always will. But I find it a little weird that they play God Bless America in the seventh inning stretch now, and I feel less of an obligation to stand for that. If they start firing up America the Beautiful during pitching changes, I'm going to say enough is enough. I'm not your monkey.

What is amazing is the contempt I see in some comments about displays of patriotism...

I don't think anyone who really understands liberalism is surprised by the contempt displayed towards patriotism.

I haven't seen any contempt about displays of patriotism here. I've seen contempt about ritualized, coercive displays of patriotism, which is a very different thing.

If someone wants to fly a flag, that's fine with me. I've flown the flag in the past, and I'll likely do it again. But if you tell me I have to fly the flag, or question my patriotism because I decline to fly the flag when you suggest it, then yes, I have contempt for you, and your conception of patriotism.

h2odragon beat me to the point that "I couldn't find any that weren't made in China" would probably have gotten Obama respect among a fair number of conservatives.

Nick

I haven't seen any contempt about displays of patriotism here. I've seen contempt about ritualized, coercive displays of patriotism, which is a very different thing.

Ritualized patriotism is different? ARE YOU QUESTIONING THEIR PATRIOTISM!?!? heh.

I'm sympathetic to people who don't want to be forced to wear a flag pin. I probably wouldn't want to wear one either. But I don't care how anyone expresses their patriotism. If you wear a flag pin, it doesn't mean any more or less if you don't wear one.

I do think, however, that people who go around constantly slinging the line about the "refuge of the scoundrel" are showing contempt for patriotism. Or, more properly, are showing contempt towards people that love their country. I also think that a major tenet of liberalism is that, among other things, America is the cause of the world's problems, and so to love America is to belittle those problems, or something. It's all about guilt, because America is powerful, and victimization-fetish for leftists means loving a powerful America is difficult because you're supposed to feel guilty about America. That's why "dissent is patriotic."

The mutt yelps, "Given that 40% of Democrats in a very recent poll indicated they either wanted the USA to lose the war in Iraq or didn't know if they wanted the USA to win or lose . . ."

And this poll would be?

>But it is pretty clear that Hillary has the nomination
>tied up...[snip]...lets face it, there is no way that
>Obama can overcome Hillary's commanding lead in the polls
>at this point.

Late, and slightly OT, but: how on earth can this statement be justified? Before a single primary or caucus, you're declaring a winner?

I'm amazed that flag flying is seen as some kind of Republican or conservative thing. I have never heard a Republican or conservative say that any American has no right or any lesser right to display the flag. And I can't see how displaying a flag is any endorsement of the current administration.

Flag waving is not required, as many have pointed out above. However, if I were running for office, I'd wear one.

If laughing Heather can pick herself up off the floor, I have found evidence suggesting that Senator Grassley is no sneaky liberal by any stretch (unless Senators Lott and Allard are also liberals)...

www.electoral-vote.com/evp2007/Senate/senator-ratings.html

ejo - I'm no Christian, but I've never seen how the degree of emphasis Christian conservatives place on the flag is consistent with their theology. What's with putting a symbol of the state in a house of God?

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 10/05/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

Wow. According to your gloss on that poll, more than a quarter of Americans want the US to lose in Iraq or don't know if they want us to win or lose, including 13% of Republicans.

But of course that's not what was asked, and that's not what the poll shows.

but that poll is by Fox News, may their patriotism be spat upon. Everyone knows that the folks at Moveon, Kos and the Huffington Post really want us to win-how dare they be questioned. Seriously, is there any doubt that many leftists would revel in our failure-it's not even debatable. Unfortunately for the Democrats, they are your base.

The right has been campaigning for decades to turn patriotic symbols like the flag into exclusive symbols of the right's conception of patriotism, and has been very effective at it.

Yet liberals keep making it easy for us.

What's with putting flags in Christian churches, right up there with the Bible and the Cross? Is the idea that when Christ returns, He'll be waving the stars and stripes?

Went to Simach Torah services, saw an American flag up on the bima. Whats's up with those Jews?

This Obama flag pin issue was CREATED not by conservatives but by BHO himself. If he had just stopped wearing the pin and said nothing, nobody would have cared or noticed. However Hussein Obama chose to make a point of bringing this up to ingratiate himself to the 40% of the democrat party base who hate America first. Also, a nice suck up to the hate America black separatists of which he is apparently one.

Says the "Dog"

Dog, there is of course a huge difference between "we can win or lose, and I hope we win," and "we can't win, and the continuing war is worse than the alternative."

Note that Fox didn't ask whether respondents wanted the US to lose, or even whether it'd be better if we won or lost. They asked if the world would "be better off if the US loses the war in Iraq," leaving the alternative unspoken.

For those who believe we can win, the alternative to losing is winning. For those who believe that the war is unwinnable --- about half of Americans, according to one recent poll --- the alternative to losing is more pointless war.

To claim that those who believe the war can't be won, and who believe as a consequence that it would be better ended sooner "want us to lose the war in Iraq" is a gross and foul insult.

Dog,

This Obama flag pin issue was CREATED not by conservatives but by BHO himself. If he had just stopped wearing the pin and said nothing, nobody would have cared or noticed. However Hussein Obama chose to make a point of bringing this up to ingratiate himself to the 40% of the democrat party base who hate America first. Also, a nice suck up to the hate America black separatists of which he is apparently one.

Did you even read the article, or are you just content as usual to pontificate on your preconceptions without any idea what you're talking about? Obama didn't say anything on the pin issue until he was specifically asked by a reporter why he wasn't wearing one; he can hardly be said to have made an issue of it himself. At least, not by anyone minimally informed and intellectually honest.

I think Zarkov got it:

But if a candidate announces he won’t wear a flag symbol, he’s telling me that he eschews one of the emblems of patriotism.

I own a flag pin, but I'm not sure where it is. Obviously I don't wear it much, and neither do I generally think about whether someone I meet is wearing one.

But Obama has gone out of his way to make a statement about this. If someone said, "I always wear my flag pin, because those who don't are unpatriotic," we would all conclude things about that person, many of them uncomplimentary. Likewise, we can conclude things about Obama by his statements.

It's the statements, not the wearing of the pin that are indicative of the man.

I think he jumped the shark on this one. Is he that hurting that he needs to try gimmicks like this? I doubt quoting known socialists as an indication of his reasoning would do him much good either, recommend he avoids that.

There are so many people in America who don't buy that "global citizen" concept and are (gasp) proud of their country. Veterans for example...

Hillary is so much smarter/more careful than that. An example is how she responded when asked about her response to a nuclear assault on U.S. soil. She knows that the first woman president will always be questioned as being "weak" and so I am sure long ago she realized that she would have to be tougher than any male candidate if she wants to win. Now I think Giuliani is just shadier Bush 2.0 but Hillary I have no doubt at all will be a war hawk to the extreme.

Obama made a big mistake on this one. I agree with other commenter’s that it appears amateurish.

Ron Paul

Do Ron Paul supporters remind anyone else of the yobs who call into talk-radio shows claiming to have a point and then, when they finally get their turn on the air, start yelling "Howard Stern! Howard Stern!" repeatedly?

L.S.,

...only in America...

So KenB, your problem with Obama is that he didn't lie when asked a direct question?

Another option, of course, would have been to note that he is refusing to desecrate the flag by using it as clothing, or for advertising his own candidacy, as prohibited by the Flag Code. See 4 U.S.C. Sec. 8.

Actually, this is the first thing I've heard from Obama that makes me seriously like him. It indicates he is a politician who is more interested in substance than in symbols.

I've elsewhere argued this is the same reason we should permit (although decry) the burning of the American Flag. The Flag is merely the Symbol of our Freedom; whereas the Right to Free Speech is the Substance.

I can see his declining to wear the flag pin for a political debate as sensible. He seems to object that the right has been cheapening the gesture, from a real indicator of patriotism to a rote habit. I think refusing to do it ever may be taking the point to an extreme, but I can understand his reluctance. (Mind you, I'm not married, so I can't address that end of it.)

Perhaps the good folk at Cattle Prod, Inc might be persuaded to also make Bill of Rights cloisonne pins? Hm; I don't think one could do the whole of it without microengraving. Probably a very pricey custom order from someone, somewhere.

Why do we have a problem with Obama answering truthfully? I don't want a president who does or does not do something, just because it plays better in Peoria. Sure, it may be campaign suicide, and I don't think Obama has a real chance irrespective of this incident, but I'm just happy he said it if he's telling the truth.

After 9/11, I wore a pin on my bag, but I took it off after a year or so. I'm not a flag-wearing girl at heart, but I wore it as a symbol of solidarity in the face of national tragedy. Once it ceased to represent that for me, I put it away. I don't need to wave a flag to be patriotic, and I don't believe anyone needs it to be patriotic. Just as I respect those who continue to wear it to this day (including co-workers, friends and relatives). What I do not respect is those who would act like a star-bellied sneetch about it - you don't have to wear it and not wearing it doesn't make you less of a patriotic citizen.

I'm smart enough to respect that different people believe and act differently, yet still could be an effective leader. The wearing of a pin will not win or lose my vote.

9/11 fetish-how small minded that we can't just get past that little event. by the way, BO numbers are down, so apparently people aren't buy his audaciousness, if that is a word.

Is anyone aware of any studies of whether the Daily Kos fans et al actually vote? I realize they can generate money, which may be sufficient reason to court them. But do they vote? Do they get out the vote?

I recall Adlai Stevenson lost votes because he was bald. Is there any reason to presume the voting population ignores the insignificant?

Bierce: "In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first."

Sez Dangermouse: "Usually, the people using that phrase are also at the same time attacking patriotism. So when they say it, they're implying that anyone who is patriotic is a scoundrel. It has become a negative comment on patriotism. "

No, you're missing a difference; it's an attack on "patriotism", the insincere profession of it as a rfeuge, rather than the real thing.

So KenB, your problem with Obama is that he didn't lie when asked a direct question?

I see that I failed to make myself clear. No, I do not think it would be better if Obama lied. My point, however poorly made, was that there are innocent reasons not to wear a flag pin. Again, I'm not sure I could even put my hands on the one I own. Had Obama given an innocent reason in response to the question, there would be nothing to this.

But instead Obama's reason pandered to those such as Katie Couric who have a hard time thinking about "we" as applied to America and Americans, people who perceive themselves as above the fray, people who from my perspective live in a fool's paradise. I'll give Obama he benefit of the doubt on his answer being true---and judge him accordingly.

Why do we have a problem with Obama answering truthfully?

Assuming he did, in fact, answer truthfully, it means that he truly believes that wearing a flag pin and criticizing an incumbent president's policies are somehow fundamentally incompatible. That would make him ... well ... foolish. It would also be a sign he is completely out of touch philosophically with a large fraction of the voting public, perhaps even a solid majority.

For a politician running for any office, let alone the Presidency, that's a problem. For a Democratic presidential candidate its a particular problem. For a Democratic candidate who's father was a foreigner, who grew up abroad, and has an unusual ethnic background, it might even be a fatal problem.

I like Obama. I hope he's the Democratic nominee. I do not agree with him on many important issues, but he is the only candidate of either party whom I find both both honest and unburdened by serious personality defects. I trust him more than any of his serious opponents. But this was not his best moment, and I suspect it was one his _LEAST_ honest.

Really - 220 comments in two posts on candidate flair?????

God, help this country.

True enough. But what I find even more shocking is the number of liberals here who assert that the flag is a Republican symbol. That's not just silly, that's frightening. The flag belongs to every American.

A former Army sergeant, 3 combat tours in VN, from the South reflecting on his time in VN, his heritage, and a recent scrape out in the countryside with some odd white supremacists said, "I couldn't turn my back on the flag like Robert Lee did." For a military man the flag stands stands for land paid for in loss and courage as at Iwo Jima. It also stands for respect for the process of establishing a government and law beginning with George Washington and the Constitution. Accepting this respect allows us to enjoy perhaps the comments of the churchmouse Obama.