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Virginia Tech Bleg:

Virginia Polytechnic University has a policy manual instructing employees how to deal with a violent or angry individual. Among those instructions are that if the violent/angry person has a gun, and offers to hand over the gun to the employee, the employee should not accept the gun. Instead, the employee should call security. Does anyone have a copy/cite of this policy? If so, please post the appropriate information in the Comments section. (Or if you prefer to remain completely anonymous, just send to me via the e-mail link from www.davekopel.org.) Please note that I am not looking for the Virginia Tech policy which bans all professors and students from possessing firearms on campus. Thank you.

As usual, the VC's excellent readership comes through. See the 7th comment, below, for a link to the VT policy.

T.:
Did you know that Virginia Tech has a policy banning all professors and students from possessing firearms on campus? I'll forward you a copy.
8.20.2007 3:50pm
John Jenkins (mail):
It's Virginia Polytechnic Institute &State University. There's a reason we shortened it to Virginia Tech.
8.20.2007 3:52pm
MartinEd (mail):
I can't believe that those who signed "a policy banning all professors and students from possessing firearms on campus" haven't been formally charged with being responsible for the deaths of the final, what, 5, 10 15 of the dead students.
The shooter, by locking the doors against folks entering, knew he faced absolutely no threat from his so-to-be victims.
Those who signed and publicized this "no guns" idiocy actually painted a target on the book bag of every student at VaTech and, for what, just to make them feel superior.
There has to be some attack lawyer out there who'll find justice for the parents of these innocent dead students and bring the progressive idiots who run the university back to reality.
8.20.2007 4:19pm
alkali (mail):
The website Scribd.com is essentially flickr for documents and provides a convenient method of posting PDFs and other documents to the web anonymously (although watch the metadata, dime-droppers).

Obligatory disclosure: I have no affiliation with that site.
8.20.2007 4:21pm
Yankev (mail):

[I]f the violent/angry person has a gun, and offers to hand over the gun to the employee, the employee should not accept the gun. Instead, the employee should call security.


What a wonderful idea. That way if the violent/angry person gets upset all over again while waiting for security to arrive, he still has the firearm available. How much more sensible than giving all employees one hour of training in the safe handling and unloading of firearms.

The only justification I can think of for this policy is to avoid a potentially deadly scuffle if the v/a person changes his mind after surrendering the firearm and tries to prevent it being unloaded, or to reload it with spare ammunition.
8.20.2007 5:23pm
TomH (mail):
Just give the "angry person with a gun" directions to the Dean's office. I am sure the Dean has that authority, no?
8.20.2007 6:03pm
James Fulford (mail):
Here.

Never attempt to disarm or accept a weapon from the person in question. Weapon retrieval should only be done by a police officer.


That's from the Environmental, Health and Safety Services--Workplace Violence page at VTech
8.20.2007 6:04pm
Shelby (mail):
This looks to me like a standardized policy -- that is, not one developed at VA Tech, rather adopted by it as part of a more comprehensive set of safety policies. Does anyone here know whether such a policy is based on "common sense" or on research? Or some other rationale?
8.20.2007 6:12pm
alkali (mail):
Further to Shelby, a lot of colleges seem to use this form of policy -- try Googling, in quotes, "Never attempt to disarm or accept".
8.20.2007 6:26pm
Phantom:
The Santa Fe Community College appears to have an identical provision.

admin.sfcc.edu/~safety/DisastM/Disaster_Man.pdf

--PtM
8.20.2007 6:27pm
davod (mail):
Shelby - I do not know the actual reason but itr seems to be th sort of language included to ensure the college limits liability. If you don't touch the weapon how then cpucan you be held liable for what went on before. Yes I know it sounds silly but there it is.
8.20.2007 6:29pm
George Lyon (mail):
File under stupid advice that can get you killed.
8.20.2007 6:43pm
Houston Lawyer:
Maybe it's because so many faculty members are felons who are not allowed to possess guns.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but numb nuts written policies wouldn't mean much to me if I had the choice of accepting the surrender of a gun by an obviously unbalanced person or telling him to just put it back in his pocket.
8.20.2007 6:44pm
Andy Freeman (mail):
If the arriving police tend to shoot the person with the gun, not having it will protect you from them.

We've seen "suicide by cop", so is "murder by cop" too far fetched? (The scenario that I'm thinking of is basically "the police arrive and the crazy person yells `he's got a gun and going to shoot me'".)
8.20.2007 7:18pm
PersonFromPorlock:
I suspect that a madman with a gun is 'only' a potential tragedy, while an employee with the same gun is a potential lawsuit.
8.20.2007 9:38pm
Fub:
Andy Freeman wrote at 8.20.2007 6:18pm:
We've seen "suicide by cop", so is "murder by cop" too far fetched? (The scenario that I'm thinking of is basically "the police arrive and the crazy person yells `he's got a gun and going to shoot me'".)
Giving away a plot spoiler for an old chestnut -- Charles Bronson's The Mechanic (1972) involved a "murder by cop" scenario, a pistol, and crazy glue.
8.20.2007 10:45pm
Malvolio:
Giving away a plot spoiler for an old chestnut -- Charles Bronson's The Mechanic (1972) involved a "murder by cop" scenario, a pistol, and crazy glue.
I'm pretty sure you mean F/X (1986).
Krazy Glue. A thousand and one uses. Now, a thousand and two.
8.20.2007 10:54pm
Fub:
Malvolio wrote at 8.20.2007 9:54pm:
I'm pretty sure you mean F/X (1986).
I haven't seen F/X. It may have a similar scenario too.
Krazy Glue. A thousand and one uses. Now, a thousand and two.
So make that a thousand and three.
8.20.2007 11:22pm
Sebastian (mail) (www):
I suspect that a madman with a gun is 'only' a potential tragedy, while an employee with the same gun is a potential lawsuit.

Spot on my friend, which is exactly why I give these sort of policies the toilet paper treatment they deserve.

If the arriving police tend to shoot the person with the gun, not having it will protect you from them.

Which is why once you determined that the threat is down, and there are no more threats, you holster the weapon and wait for police to arrive. That's the SOP. If in such a similar situation Andy, my first concern is protecting myself from the guy shooting at me. After that, I'll worry about the police.
8.21.2007 12:14am
triticale (mail) (www):
Which is why once you determined that the threat is down, and there are no more threats, you holster the weapon and wait for police to arrive.

Clear the weapon. The ideal situation when the police are responding to a "man with a gun" call is for them to find it on a desk with the magazine out and the slide locked back. You do know how to do that. don't you? Everyone should.
8.21.2007 12:59am
Waldensian (mail):

Clear the weapon. The ideal situation when the police are responding to a "man with a gun" call is for them to find it on a desk with the magazine out and the slide locked back. You do know how to do that. don't you? Everyone should.

My surprisingly informative and thought-provoking concealed carry teacher suggested placing the weapon within arms reach and then putting your hands on your head. He reasoned that you're not particularly likely to get shot by a cop that way, and you never know if there might be other bad guys around.

No f-ing way would I unload and lock the slide back. Of course, I generally pack a revolver.
8.21.2007 1:07am
Sebastian (mail) (www):
No, I'm not doing that. If it's holstered, it's concealed from view, and the cops aren't going to know I have it until I tell them, and when I do that, I will be sure to be in a compliant posture. Never ever put your weapon down. That's horrible advice. You have no idea if the threat you just neutralized has friends in the area, who might decide to get to you before the police do.
8.21.2007 1:32am
Carolina:
A bit off the point (but hey, that's never stopped me before!) but I am pretty confident that Malvolio is right.

As best as I can recall, The Mechanic ends with Jan Michael Vincent killing Bronson and then getting into a car Bronson has rigged to explode.

F/X definitely ends with the cops-gun-crazy glue thing.
8.21.2007 1:36am
Malvolio:
As best as I can recall, The Mechanic ends with Jan Michael Vincent killing Bronson and then getting into a car Bronson has rigged to explode. F/X definitely ends with the cops-gun-crazy glue thing.
Yep.

Googling glue "bryan brown" (the star of F/X) finds a half-dozen links to that movie, but Googling glue "charles bronson" finds only... this conversation.

If I ever had an empty gun glued to my hands and was confronted by the police, I'd throw myself on the ground and roll over on my back, dog-fashion. The cops know how much paperwork they would have to fill out if they shoot a guy lying on the ground and would probably give me time to explain.
8.21.2007 4:31am
Daryl Herbert (www):
The real problem is that liberal administrators are so out of touch with reality that they can't apply a simple economic analysis to school shootings.

What do we know about shooters? They REALLY don't want to be taken alive.

If just a fraction of professors/students were carrying TASER weapons (the kind that shoot darts out, not the kind that requires the user to actually touch the target), the risk of carrying out a school shooting would include a very high chance of being taken alive due to being TASERed.

This would thus discourage crazy school shooters from attacking that campus.

---

If these left-wing idiots don't even understand that we're better off if a sane person has a gun than a crazy person, then I don't know how much traction my TASER idea would have.
8.21.2007 6:35am
triticale (mail) (www):
Clarification. My recommendation was in the case raised in the original post. If handed a gun by a hypothetical violent/angry person, the right thing to do is clear it. Otherwise, hold it with your boogerhook visibly off the boomswitch, as it should always be until you are on target and ready to shoot.
8.21.2007 10:40am
Sebastian (mail) (www):
Oh. I apologize Triticale. I misunderstood you.
8.21.2007 10:56am
Carolina:
Daryl,

Although I agree that a Taser is better than nothing, the civilian version of the Taser has a 15 ft. maximum range. I'm not positive, but I think they are single-shot devices, too. I would not be keen on confronting a gunman with one.
8.21.2007 12:39pm
NickM (mail) (www):
Lockable drawers would seem to be good places to put a gun someone of questionable mental status has hust handed you.
I don't know of too many university offices that don't have at least one.

Nick
8.21.2007 4:43pm
Daryl Herbert (www):
I would not be keen on confronting a gunman with one.

Doesn't matter. The gunman would be scared s---less of you, which is the point.
8.22.2007 1:21am
triticale (mail) (www):
I'm assuming most of you figured out the slang I used for trigger finger off the trigger. It is common in the gun blog community where Sebastian and I run into each other, and originated with this delightful wordsmith.
8.22.2007 2:08am