The Volokh Conspiracy

Looking for Cute Tarot Deck To Use for Calling Randomly on Students:

I'd like to pass a deck around to my Criminal Law students so they can write their names on each card, and so I can then call on them fairly randomly. Since the class is 80 students, I take it a Tarot deck plus one or two other cards will do the trick.

Can anyone recommend any Tarot decks I can order online that are either generally visually appealing, or, better yet, have a legal motif or a crime motif (though not too gory)? They would also need to have some white (or pale) space in which each student's name can be written. Thanks!

Related Posts (on one page):

  1. Tarot Deck To Use (Together with an Ordinary Deck) for Calling Randomly on Students:
  2. Looking for Cute Tarot Deck To Use for Calling Randomly on Students:
Former Law Review Editor:
Eugene, if you do this, it is your solemn duty not to call on the students randomly, but in a manner humorously consistent with the card onto which their name has been placed.

Especially the students who get "Death" and "The Hanged Man."
8.10.2007 2:38pm
Joshua Macy:
My favorite cute Tarot deck is the PoMo Tarot, by Brian Williams.
8.10.2007 2:40pm
T.:
Revonna might be a troll's troll, but I think she might have a point there. Sure, she's an oversensitive killjoy, but aren't law schools full of such people?
8.10.2007 2:42pm
Zacharias (mail):
This would be a good opportunity to order custom playing cards that you could design yourself:

http://www.customplayingcards.com/
8.10.2007 2:44pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
You should put an extra card in the deck, and when you pull it, YOU have to answer the question, giving one student a free pass. Alternatively, the student whose card is pulled next after the joker gets a free pass, and you pull another card to call on.
8.10.2007 2:52pm
Zacharias (mail):
Why not just mount a huge Wheel-of-Fortune at the front of the classroom? They'll have fun spinning it and get a good intro into "American justice" at the same time.
8.10.2007 2:58pm
Ben Ibach (mail):

Hey Eugene.

I suspect a variety of folks would find the Tarot cards to be unsavory. I'm not saying you should be banned from using the cards or anything that strong; people need to be a bit thick-skinned. But I would say that it would be in poor taste given the sensibilities of many religious (and perhaps areligious) people.

Why associate people with something they would not want to be associated with?

Pragmatically, you'll have a bigger problem in that if you do use the cards, all the guys would want to be "Death", just like everyone wants to be Mr. Black or Mr. Blue and no one wants to be Mr. Pink.

Peace
8.10.2007 2:58pm
anonVCfan:
Wow. That's really weird and also kind of cool
8.10.2007 3:02pm
WHOI Jacket:
I wish my professors had been this awesome. Plus, 90% of your students don't even know what Tarot Cards are.
8.10.2007 3:21pm
Steve2:
Professor Volokh, there are stores that carry a variety of tarot decks in stock and will often have a binder or notebook that contains examples of cards from each deck in stock (like a photo album or baseball card collection), to let you pick and choose one that way. Obviously, much more time consuming than picking online, but some people do enjoy shopping by hand. Not to mention, some of 'em just have pretty art.

Unfortunately, tarot themes generally don't fall into the "legal or crime" motif so much as the "animals, spirits, witches, dragons, etc." motif or the "gimmicks like Rock &Roll Tarot" or "Silicon Valley Tarot" motif. There's also some decks devoted to specific old artists. Albrecht Durer, Leonardo da Vinci, William Blake, and Hieronymous Bosch come to mind as examples, but I'm not aware of any of them having particular links to the field of law.

So, my advice is if you really want to go with the tarot idea, your best bet's just to Google "tarot decks", take one of the first links to an online tarot deck store, and pick the one with the art you like the best.
8.10.2007 3:27pm
Former Law Review Editor:
And 95% of Americans (including 100% of those offended by the cards) have never played a game of Tarocchio in their lives.
8.10.2007 3:27pm
Bill Sommerfeld (www):
This made me think of the Steven Wright oneliner:

"I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died."
8.10.2007 3:30pm
Cornellian (mail):
I think Tarot cards would be cool, but in this hypersensitive world of ours, you're probably safer going with plain index cards.

On the other hand, you're the one with tenure, so it's your call.
8.10.2007 3:33pm
MichaelG (www):
I would like to recommend the "Hidden Path Oracle Kit" available from Amazon, among others. Authored by Raven Grimassi the art work is original by Mickie Mueller. I have an early copy and I don't think her artwork is going to be as bothersome as some other decks could be for some people.
MichaelG
8.10.2007 3:37pm
rarango (mail):
Perhaps the folks who designed the Baathist most wanted card deck could help you out.
8.10.2007 3:41pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Ben Ibach: I take your point -- I'm happy to accommodate students' personal preferences to the extent this doesn't interfere with others' preferences (including my own). I'm planning on passing around both the Tarot and an ordinary card deck, so those who prefer ordinary cards can use them (plus, as I said, I'll have more students than Tarot cards in any event).

And great point about Mr. Black.
8.10.2007 3:53pm
Jerry Mimsy (www):
Silicon Valley tarot?

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=SJG1324

"The 70 cards include both major arcana (cards like Flame War, Spam, The Hacker, and Double Latte) and minor arcana (in four suits: Cubicles, Hosts, Disks, and Networks!)."
8.10.2007 3:56pm
Steve2:
Sadly, the Silicon Valley Tarot doesn't include The Blogger.
8.10.2007 4:02pm
Jayhawker100 (mail):
The Rider-Waite Tarot deck is a classic, and probably the version most widely used today. It also has the virtue of being fairly non-sectarian in nature (the Pope card is called the Hierophant, etc.) and hence has relatively little reason to give offense in relationship to some of the other decks out there.
8.10.2007 4:06pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
Ben Ibach: I take your point -- I'm happy to accommodate students' personal preferences to the extent this doesn't interfere with others' preferences (including my own). I'm planning on passing around both the Tarot and an ordinary card deck, so those who prefer ordinary cards can use them (plus, as I said, I'll have more students than Tarot cards in any event).

As a senior professor, I must agree with Ben and what Ravonna had written earlier.

If this is a public university, you must provide an easy opt-out for those with religious preferences. I suspect that many of your more religious students are not ignorant of Tarot Cards, as some of your younger commenters seem to believe.

I also wonder what happened to spending time in class teaching the law, and letting the students find their own fun on their own time. The deck of cards Joshua Macy has linked too clearly has no place in a public classroom.

Why not stick with plain index cards and let your students impress you with their hard work and knowledge, not flatter how "cool" you are for presenting sexy or gory namecards for them in a public school with religious students present?

This one should go in the "death of common sense in the academy" files. Is there any oversight of what you newer professors are up to with your students? Perhaps there should be if this is the level of judgment on display.
8.10.2007 4:06pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
In fact,
I think some students will be offended by others playing with Tarot cards in the classroom REGARDLESS if their is an opt out. It's not hypersensitivity, it's religious choice and it's not a game that belongs in a public classroom.

I hope some of your future students are reading this and will take action on this silliness starting on day one. Religious students should be able to attend their public state schools without compromising their religious principles.

Don't be stubborn on this one -- go with colored index cards if you find white ones, and just teaching black letter law to be so troublesome. Perhaps you could get up a group of friends outside the classroom and Tarot away to your heart's content. These kinds of nonsence don't belong in the public classroom, not matter what your personal preferences are.
8.10.2007 4:12pm
John M. Perkins (mail):
Not legal or criminal, but I have
Baseball tarot / Mark Lerner, ISBN 0761103473

Personally, I use www.random.org
8.10.2007 4:14pm
John M. Perkins (mail):
I use www.random.org ...
to call on students.

No tarot there.
8.10.2007 4:15pm
Future Student (mail):
Is there a Dean we could write to and object to such silliness?

I don't want my professor to be "cool" or "awesome".

I want him to respect everyone in the class and teach me law. Can't he buy the Tarot cards on his own dime, and find his own group of 20-somethings to play with?

I suspect when you put this up, you had no awareness of legitimate religious objections. Don't bring an ouiji board in the public classroom either, in case you don't understand those cultural distinctions either.

For a smart man, sometimes you show yourself thinking at about a 13-year-old's level. Which I suspect is why this is viewed as so "awesome" by your secular students.
8.10.2007 4:17pm
Arvin (mail) (www):
Professor Volokh, I hope you ignore Thomas R. Murphy's advice on this. I think tarot cards with student names would be a fun thing, and if someone is seriously offended, they can use playing cards or even index cards. Give them a surreptitious way of letting you know (e.g. ask them to e-mail you so they don't have to speak up in front of anyone) and I don't see a problem. I would have to say that, in my own view, not doing something you think would make the class a little more fun and that shouldn't offend anyone any more than reading the horoscope aloud, would be the "death of common sense". I sincerely hope we have not reached that age.
8.10.2007 4:18pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Thomas R. Murphy: My students have a perfect constitutional right to be offended by whatever they please. They could be offended by a class problem having to do with the Mohammed cartoons, or by my accurately quoting offensive words in discussion of cases (e.g., the "Fuck the Draft" case or whatever else), or by people's using phrases such as "God knows" or "God forbid," or by discussion of false rape reports (or true rape reports), or by female classmates' wearing clothes that they (the observers) find insufficiently modest. I just don't think their offendedness -- or their hypothetical offendedness -- gives them a claim on me or classmates.

On the other hand, I do want to give students an easy opt-out when it doesn't affect what others are doing, and especially when it is in some measure tied to themselves or their names. The ordinary card deck, which as I said I'll offer as an option, should take care of that.
8.10.2007 4:18pm
scote (mail):

I suspect a variety of folks would find the Tarot cards to be unsavory. I'm not saying you should be banned from using the cards or anything that strong; people need to be a bit thick-skinned. But I would say that it would be in poor taste given the sensibilities of many religious (and perhaps areligious) people.

Tarot cards were originally just **playing cards** for card games. It wasn't until much later that they were turned in to "divination tools." They are no more inherently mystical than the standard 52 card deck that is more commonly used.

Should we avoid tea just because some people use tea leaves for divination.
8.10.2007 4:27pm
Michael Kleber (mail):
I hope the people who object to Tarot cards would likewise object to rolling dice to pick students -- the two have about the same religious significance, and about the same legislative history of being banned.

US Games publishes a pretty deck called the "Russian Tarot of St. Petersburg", with illustrations drawn from Russian folk tales. (It also happens to be free of the occasional breast many decks display, which on second thought is one reason some might object to Tarot but not dice.) Pictures at:

http://www.tarot.com/tarot/decks/index.php?deckID=25

http://www.usgamesinc.com/product.php?productid=595
8.10.2007 4:29pm
Dan Simon (mail) (www):
If you want to take the gag one step further, you could anounce in class (while waving a deck around) that you've decided to use the Tarot to select students to call on--then pull out a bag of taro chips....
8.10.2007 4:31pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):

Since you asked, I don't think rolling dice or reading tea leaves has any place in the public classroom either.

Why does he have to provide "fun" and "silliness"? Is it for him, or for the more immature students with no social lives outside class?

Call them alphabetically, or shuffle up their names and call them randomly. Spending this much effort on "fun" instead of black-letter law seems silly and more for the young professor's benefit.

Stay away from the Tarot Cards, even with an opt out, if you truly respect the religion of all your students, and want to rank them on merit.

If this were my child in your classroom where others were using Tarot Cards, I would not want my uncomfortableness at his attending that class to affect his grade. May students choose another class if they object to these goings-on in the classroom?

I do suspect it won't be so neutral as to call the name and move on. There will be superstitious silliness noted -- comments, guffaws, etc. Why not choose a better tailored option that isn't so offensive to your religious students?

I don't understand why you are so fixated on the Tarot deck, unless your precisely want to add these fantasy elements into the law classroom.
8.10.2007 4:37pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
Professor Volokh, I hope you ignore Thomas R. Murphy's advice on this. I think tarot cards with student names would be a fun thing, and if someone is seriously offended, they can use playing cards or even index cards. Give them a surreptitious way of letting you know (e.g. ask them to e-mail you so they don't have to speak up in front of anyone) and I don't see a problem. I would have to say that, in my own view, not doing something you think would make the class a little more fun and that shouldn't offend anyone any more than reading the horoscope aloud, would be the "death of common sense". I sincerely hope we have not reached that age.

Is the professor reading horoscopes aloud today in the classroom? "I sincerely hope we have not reached tht age."

Please consider your religious students and pick a less offensive method. What is fun for some, really is religiously objectionable for others and they should not have to face this dilemma entering the classroom everyday.
8.10.2007 4:41pm
JBL:
You could use baseball cards instead.

I don't know if the card assignments would be more or less controversial than tarot cards.
8.10.2007 4:41pm
A Northwestern Law Student:
Why not just mount a huge Wheel-of-Fortune at the front of the classroom? They'll have fun spinning it and get a good intro into "American justice" at the same time.

Why not mount this wheel instead? Surely the students will have even more fun spinning it.
8.10.2007 4:43pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Thomas R. Murphy: I'll say it again -- that some people are offended by something isn't going to stop me from doing it. Lots of people are offended by lots of things; I'm not going to change my practices to accommodate all their objections. I'm sure some people will be offended by my saying "rule of thumb," "handicapped," "picnic," and "nitty gritty," too; that's between them and their sensibilities. If someone is upset at there even being a Tarot deck in class that the professor is using to select students to call on, that's likewise his lookout.

As to silliness, different people have different senses of humor, and different tolerance for frivolousness in class (or elsewhere). I think some degree of such frivolousness is helpful; I realize others disagree; that's why classes often differ from each other a good deal. Look, I've often ask a trivia question (often related to geography, history, or language) once a week in my classes. I thought it broke up what might otherwise be a too intensely law-focused mood; my sense is that many students liked it and nearly all the rest were indifferent, but I suppose some might have found it to be silly. That's the way things are.

Others: Thanks very much for the pointers to nice-looking decks; I'd love to have more!
8.10.2007 4:48pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
In teaching law cases, you may have no choice but to offend by reading the casenotes, etc.

But you are not deliberately introducing material into the classroom to offend: it is a legitimate part of the learning experience.

Here, there are so many religiously neutral ways to call on students using other cards than Tarot cards and what traditionally has been associated with them.

Why would you not choose, since this is clearly optional, to provide neutral nametages?

Is it a class where you intend to provoke religious offense in making captive students sit for this optional educational material?

This just seems such a common-sense conflict that could easily be avoided in respecting the secular and religious students. I suspect there will be many who WILL keep quiet and play along, but should they have to compromise their religious principles to attend a public school?

I see a big distinction between introducing these cards and talking about the facts of a case, or an issue. I also thought at the time that you especially enjoyed provocation on the cartoons issue; is that the case here? You're trying to prepare students to abandon their religious "sensititivies" for the practice of law?
8.10.2007 4:50pm
Arvin (mail) (www):
Regarding the concerns of grading and such -- all grading at UCLA Law is anonymous, and thus even if Eugene thought a person was the silliest person ever for objecting to tarot cards, he couldn't affect that person's grade even if he tried. Not that he ever would.

Second, how much time has Eugene spent on this? 20 minutes? If you've ever been in a class taught by Eugene, I doubt you'd worry that he wasn't adequately prepared, or was skimping on substantive preparation in lieu of "silliness".

And lastly, while I don't think professors have read horoscopes in class while I was there, I would wonder at people that this offended if they did. And if the professor called on people based on their astrological signs, I'd also wonder at the people this offended.
8.10.2007 4:51pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):

Will students be penalized in any way for requesting removal from the Tarot Card classroom?


You really seem bound and determined on this issue, and I'm wondering why the Tarot Cards are so important to you?
8.10.2007 4:52pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
I'm sure some people will be offended by my saying "rule of thumb," "handicapped," "picnic," and "nitty gritty," too; that's between them and their sensibilities. If someone is upset at there even being a Tarot deck in class that the professor is using to select students to call on, that's likewise his lookout.

You really are clueless as to the religious offense some take at Tarot Cards. I suspect there are more students who will be offended than you know.

This should be submitted to the "Crazy Nonsense in the Classroom" files.
8.10.2007 4:54pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
Regarding the concerns of grading and such -- all grading at UCLA Law is anonymous, and thus even if Eugene thought a person was the silliest person ever for objecting to tarot cards, he couldn't affect that person's grade even if he tried. Not that he ever would.

Arvin, you are missing the point.
If a student has to attend a class, where every day he is confronted with Tarot Cards, which is not kosher to his religion, will his grade be affected?

If you had a professor in a public setting bring in religious prayer cards of the saints and Popes, and every day played the game of calling out a saint for those who choose to participate, would you think this a reasonable use of your classroom time?

If other students objected to sitting in a classroom where professor chose this method solely to satisfy his personal preferences, could you understand their questioning why he didn't find a more respectful way?

Should the religious law professors resort to bullying non-Christian students in this way, combining Fantasy elements with the subject they are teaching?

I say no, because I am more than certain some students would object to the use of prayers cards. Ditto with the Tarot.
8.10.2007 5:03pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Thomas R. Murphy: (1) What I don't see is why someone else's religious offense at Tarot cards -- or anything else -- should require me to accede to their religious demands.

(2) Of course no-one will be penalized for signing one of the playing cards I distribute rather than one of the Tarot cards.
8.10.2007 5:04pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
By the way, I've heard of people's objecting to Halloween and to Harry Potter on religious grounds.

As it happens, I've sometimes dressed up for class on Halloween, generally not as a witch or goblin or the like. Should I not do that on the grounds that someone might see that as going along with "sin or Satan"? Should I avoid hypos based on Harry Potter (I actually prefer other characters, but say that I was a Potter buff, as I imagine some of my students are) because they somehow bring up or endorse witchcraft?
8.10.2007 5:11pm
Zacharias (mail):
Eugene,

One cannot possibly trust in your NOT penalizing a student for picking the wrong card, seeing that you freely censor folks on this blog who merely use combinations of words from Webster's dictionary that you don't like.

Furthermore, you should know that Fundamentalist Christians consider using a regular deck sinful. It is not that long ago that students could be expelled from Wheaton College (IL) for dancing, going to movies and playing with those cards.
8.10.2007 5:13pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
What I don't see is why someone else's religious offense at Tarot cards -- or anything else -- should require me to accede to their religious demands.

You're not legally required, but it is a question of respect for all of your students, the religious ones included.

Did you read the prayer card hypothetical I offered above? I would no more ask my non-Christian students to sit by while we called out those cards then I would ask yours to accept the use of Tarot.

Will there be an non-punitive option for students who hold strong religious beliefs to confronting these materials on a daily basis to move to a more religiously neutral classroom?

Baseball cards have no religious connotation to them and can be fun for the group.

Why not give a little respect here to those who might mentally "drop out" of your class and receive a poorer grade due to religous conflicts?

Why would you want to start out advantaging some students (with no religious objections) over others? Next year, will you be using the prayer cards of the saints as offset, instead of using religiously neutral cards every year?

Would you object if Christian professors had a little less respect for all of their students too, and start "pushing back" in subtle ways?

Tarot Cards and prayer cards have no place in the public classroom as an optional activity. California craziness!
8.10.2007 5:18pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
By the way, I've heard of people's objecting to Halloween and to Harry Potter on religious grounds.

As it happens, I've sometimes dressed up for class on Halloween, generally not as a witch or goblin or the like.


Is that an everyday activity linking the students to your game which could potentially affect their grade, or are students perfectly free to just tune out and ignore your costume for that one-time event, even choosing to stay at home that one day if it offends the practice offends their religious sensibilities?


The prayer card hypothetical, daily calling out Christian icons, is much more on point.
8.10.2007 5:24pm
Thomas R. Murphy (mail):
By the way, I've heard of people's objecting to Halloween and to Harry Potter on religious grounds. As it happens, I've sometimes dressed up for class on Halloween, generally not as a witch or goblin or the like.

Is that an everyday activity linking the students to your game which could potentially affect their grade, or are students perfectly free to just tune out and ignore your costume for that one-time event, even choosing to stay at home that one day if it offends the practice offends their religious sensibilities?


The prayer card hypothetical, daily calling out Christian icons, is much more on point.
8.10.2007 5:25pm
Colin (mail):
seeing that you freely censor folks on this blog who merely use combinations of words from Webster's dictionary that you don't like

He's constantly doing things like that. Why, I myself have been censored here (by the United States Department of Volokh, so you know it's real censorship) merely for using the phrase "hyperbole carousel marmoset." And each of those words is in Webster's! Quel outrage!

In the extraordinarily unlikely event that someone objected in class to other students' voluntary use of these cards, it would be a fine moment to remind the students of the etiquette for future professionals in a pluralistic society. A digression from the class's subject matter, I suppose, but worth it.

Come to think of it, although I still think it's unlikely that an actual student would object, there was a woman in my contracts class who didn't like the professor's use of the word "gypped." (That was Professor Barnett, as it happens.) Perhaps law students need more exposure to the rough and tumble world of free speech.
8.10.2007 5:34pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Thomas R. Murphy: I do think that using real people as parts of jokes is somewhat slighting or disrespectful of those people, whether the people are religious or not. When those people are respected as serious moral figures, whether saints or other moral leaders, I'd probably not make them the butts of jokes. But that has little to do with students' religious beliefs as such (I'd take the same view about nonreligious moral leaders). It's a general norm of respect for moral figures that I subscribe to. It is not a religious or other idelogical preference of some students that I don't see why I, who doesn't share their religion or ideology, should accede to in my own in-class comments.

And, yes, I'm aware that some people advocate a general norm of not saying or doing anything that would offend anyone's religious (or other) standards of offendedness. For reasons I've mentioned before, I don't endorse such a norm.

Finally, I'll mention again that anyone who wants to be on the 4 of Spades instead of the 6 of Cups is free not to be linked to the Tarot. In fact, even if everyone wanted one of the Tarot cards, some students would have to have the normal cards because I have more students than there are Tarot cards.
8.10.2007 5:35pm
M. Gross (mail):
I'm kind of torn on this one. While I enjoy the novelty of Prof. Volokh's approach, I really do think he underestimates how many people associate the Tarot (unfairly) with witchcraft.

Admittedly, one probably doesn't have many of these students in his law classes. They're probably more common in public universities in the south.

I just think it's probably more controversy than it is worth for a simple memory trick.
8.10.2007 5:38pm
Thief (mail) (www):
Another idea: have your students make their own "cards," and be able to choose their own pictures. That way, everyone gets to choose a picture they like. Assemble the whole set into a windows directory as images, print the whole series on Cardstock, and voila!

One possible motif:
Magic: The Gathering Card Generator

Or, for a simpler card:
Motivator/Demotivator Generator
8.10.2007 5:42pm
Arvin (mail) (www):
If a student has to attend a class, where every day he is confronted with Tarot Cards, which is not kosher to his religion, will his grade be affected?

A) Why would it affect his grade any more than if he's confronted every day with a viewpoint he didn't like? My Torts class was taught by a socialist. I argued with him every day, and thought many of his ideas were kooky. I doubt it affected my grade any. My grade was due to how well I did on the final. And hell, that his political views were different from mine is MUCH more likely to affect my grade than if he'd called on me because I was a Serpent in the Chinese Zodiac.

B) If it WOULD affect him, perhaps he should get used to it. We don't always get to pick our clients.
If you had a professor in a public setting bring in religious prayer cards of the saints and Popes, and every day played the game of calling out a saint for those who choose to participate, would you think this a reasonable use of your classroom time?

In my Civ Pro class, on the first day, we filled out an index card with information about who we were, what our home state was, and something interesting about ourselves. For all the rest of the days, the professor used those cards to call on us. If a defendant was from North Carolina, he'd call on a student from NC. If it was a website question, he'd call on a student with a tech background. Etc.

I don't see how that method is any better or worse than saying, Today is Saint _____'s day. So I'll call on _____ today. Arguably it might be better for me, because there's no Saint Arvin.
If other students objected to sitting in a classroom where professor chose this method solely to satisfy his personal preferences, could you understand their questioning why he didn't find a more respectful way?

No. Or rather, I could understand it, but would think it misguided, like the protests to Halloween or Harry Potter as Eugene mentioned.
Should the religious law professors resort to bullying non-Christian students in this way, combining Fantasy elements with the subject they are teaching?

In the harmless manner that Eugene is using? Sure, if they want. Assign each of us a psalm number, or something (though, as noted before, maybe we'd all want to be Psalm 23). As long as it doesn't take up much time (and I can't imagine what Eugene is doing will take more than a minute), and people can opt out, what's the harm? That I'm offended by even SEEING Christian symbolism? As long as my grade is not affected by the professor, and I feel like I can speak to the professor about the law if I have questions, I don't see a problem.
I say no, because I am more than certain some students would object to the use of prayers cards. Ditto with the Tarot.

Sure. But these students won't be forced to use prayer / tarot cards. You're asking for the presence of prayer / tarot cards to be removed because even SEEING them will be offensive to some. That's what I'd say goes too far.
8.10.2007 5:45pm
Left Hander (mail):
I consider myself pretty moderate, but I somewhat agree with Thomas R. Murphy on this one (er, at least some of his posts). There seems to be a distinct difference between the necessary risk of offending some students when teaching substance (e.g. "Fuck the Draft") and the unnecessary rist of offending students through an ancillary procedure. And I agree that the use of tarot cards becomes somewhat more offensive because you intend to repeat their use throughout the semester. And I don't think that allowing students to opt-out solves the problem, because they will still forced to see the offensive material on a repeated basis.

On the other hand, if you wanted to use the cards for a single day in your First Amendment class to raise an interesting hypothetical. . . .
8.10.2007 5:45pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Another way of looking at this: Some people apparently believe that there's something demonic or otherwise spiritually bad about the Tarot cards. I doubt there will be many such law students, but there may be some.

I don't believe in demons or evil spirits or the dark arts. (If I was using the Tarot cards as a religious exercise in class, there might be reason to object to that, but of course I'm not.) I don't believe that dressing as a witch for Halloween is demonic, I don't believe that using Harry Potter hypos is demonic, and I don't believe that using Tarot cards as a randomizing mechanism is demonic. I see no reason why I should be under any obligation to accede to others' beliefs about what is demonic or otherwise spiritually improper.

I'm happy enough to keep their names out of any connection with the Tarot cards, because that's an accommodation that doesn't affect what I may do. But, to use a perhaps inapt phrase here, I'll be damned if I feel obligated to govern my actions by others' view of black magic or spiritual maleficence or for that matter blasphemy.
8.10.2007 5:46pm
Allen G. (mail):
I rather like the Uncarrot Tarot. The Hello Kitty Tarot is awfully cool, too, though.
8.10.2007 5:48pm
BobH (mail):
I am reading this exchange in a kind of fascinated stupor. I suppose that's because I don't understand why "religious" students would object to having a Tarot deck in their classroom. My nephew Aaron, an orthodox Jew, is quite religious -- that is, he is an observant and pious Jew -- but I very much doubt he would care one way or the other about seeing a Tarot deck, putting his name on a Tarot card, or being chosen to speak based on Eugene's choice of a Tarot card with his name on it.

Mr. Murphy, can you explain your position in more detail? First, are you using "religious" as a synonym of "pious?" Or are you (as it appears) referring to adherents of a particular religion? If so, which religion? And if by "religious" you specifically mean "Christian," which branch or sect of Christianity do you mean? Finally, once those preliminaries are taken care of, can you explain why your hypothetical "religious" student -- however you have defined him or her -- would object to, or even be made uncomfortable by, a deck of Tarot cards?

Thank you.
8.10.2007 5:51pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
M. Gross: I appreciate your point; but if some people are put off because they think that I'm engaging in something that's associated with witchcraft -- witchcraft, in the 21st century! -- then that's too bad for them.
8.10.2007 5:51pm
theobromophile (www):
Should you avoid using a deck of cards because some people have moral objections to gambling? Would you not invite your students out for burgers and beer at the end of the semester so as to not offend the vegetarians and the Mormons?

/sarcasm

This exercise will take no more time than having students write their names on index cards. And, for Pete's sake, Prof. Volokh won't be using the classic Celtic cross and reading someone's fortune every morning.

Perhaps I simply do not understand students who are so insecure in their religion that they cannot even be in the presence of Tarot cards without taking offence. I am sufficiently secure in my religion (i.e. atheism) that the sight of people praying does not offend me; nor am I upset when someone points out that I'm named for a saint.

There is a fundamental difference between the presence of tarot cards (and, at that, a much mocking presence) and their use.
8.10.2007 5:55pm
DR:
I have on occasion thought, Eugene, that you should be teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts.
8.10.2007 6:05pm
Christine (mail):
Professor:

If I remember correctly from my days at UCLA Law, Crim Law is a 1L class assigned by section. Students don't chose the class, and it would be difficult to opt out without requesting a section change and all the embarassment of explaining why.

I don't understand why you would continue this not to teach a lesson but to have fun. It isn't in the same league as asking a trivia question or wearing a Halloween costume. It's willfully offending your religious students in your first act as their law professor and then continuing to mock their beliefs throughout every class that they are required to attend.

For many fundamentalist Christians participating in this class activity would be sinful regardless of the option of putting their name on a regular deck of cards. As one of the posters noted above, some Christian denominations look down on playing cards because of their derrivation from the tarot cards.

It may seem silly to you but then many people felt that those who objected to opening every public school class day with a Christian prayer was silly. Sensitivity can be taken too far but this isn't one of those instances. Please reconsider.

Christine
8.10.2007 6:07pm
scote (mail):

In teaching law cases, you may have no choice but to offend by reading the casenotes, etc.

But you are not deliberately introducing material into the classroom to offend: it is a legitimate part of the learning experience.

Here, there are so many religiously neutral ways to call on students using other cards than Tarot cards and what traditionally has been associated with them.


Good grief. You really want law class to be boring. Prof. Volokh sounds like the kind of teacher who tries to make the learning experience engaging--the kind of teacher who inspires people.

You, Thomas R. Murphy, wish to confine teaching to a state of bland, inoffensiveness guaranteed to make learning tedious.

It is not the duty of a professor to cave in to every religious or irrational prejudice that a student may theoretically have. Should he cast women out because an Orthodox Jew might be in class? Should he skip the number 13 in citations and paginated tests? Should he refrain from wearing wool and linen together? Should he avoid drinking caffeinated beverages in class lest he offend Mormons? There is no limit to this line of thinking.

Your arguments are often not even rational. You object to random selection by dice and offer that he should "shuffle up their names and call them randomly." This would be different how?

While I would agree that Prof. Volokh should refrain from going out of his way to offend people, I do not agree that ordinary objects and secular practices should be shunned from the classroom because of the possible religious orthodoxy of a theoretical student. It is literally not possible to tailor one's actions to be inoffensive to all religions simultaneously.
8.10.2007 6:11pm
kamatoa:
Mormon here - have been invited out for beer a lot. I usually order something non-alcoholic. Not sure anyone's ever been offended.

I wouldn't be offended by tarot cards, either, though I have to admit it would probably dredge up a spooky feeling (which the Hello Kitty cards would probably be a fine antidote for).

For all the stereotypes, though, Mormons tend to be less prone to see demonic influence in places like Harry Potter or what have you. It's possible that people from more charismatic Christian groups might feel actually threatened by something like a Tarot card - as if there's actually a spiritual influence associated with it. I'm not sure that it's insecurity about one's religion, per se, as much as it is a different world view regarding the reality of physical manifestations of diabolical power and the like.

Professor Volokh's idea, actually, has inspired me to try something similar for my classes. I might go with something like this.
8.10.2007 6:17pm
theobromophile (www):

Should he avoid drinking caffeinated beverages in class lest he offend Mormons?

Heaven forbid he bring in a few boxes of Starbucks and ham-and-cheese omelets to start off a Monday morning class.....
8.10.2007 6:20pm
David Chesler (mail) (www):
I'm with Murphy here.
Yes Professor, you have the right to be offensive in your own class.
Now that you have been put on notice that using a Tarot deck would make a goodly number of mostly-in-the-modern-world folks uncomfortable in either a "my religion says not to contact spirits" way, or a "there are spirits and messing with this kind of stuff can cause them to interact with this world, which might be a bad thing", or a "my Newage beliefs consider these religious-like objects and he's disrespecting them" way, if you persist in exercising your right to be offensive you will be being intentionally offensive, which is the mark of a jerk.
8.10.2007 6:21pm
visitor from Texas (mail) (www):
Easier would be to go to Steve Jackson Games and get a deck or two of Paranoia cards -- cheaper than Tarot and more entertaining. With expansion sets you can fit any size class.
8.10.2007 6:26pm
JBL:
I would guess that some students will be slightly put off, but not in a huge way or in a way that would make it more difficult for them to pass the class. At least I'd hope so. But since we all love hypotheticals,

What if a student objects because they consider tarot cards to be a sacred instrument of their religion? Most serious diviners treat their decks with great reverence.

Alternatively, how would you feel about using a collection of Orthodox icons? Each student could be a different saint. I'm sure you could find at least 80. That would be fun too.

Suppose you gave each student a choice of being either a tarot card or a saint. Would this increase or decrease the overall controversy?
8.10.2007 6:27pm
St. James (mail):
I appreciate your point; but if some people are put off because they think that I'm engaging in something that's associated with witchcraft -- witchcraft, in the 21st century! -- then that's too bad for them.


I wonder how quickly you'll get invited back to Marquette University with a "to hell with them" attitude.

There are plenty of people here who object, and it seems you could find a less religiously offensive way.

It sounds like you are digging your heels in now, just to be stubborn and deliberately offend those who don't want to hear giggles and comments about "The Death Card" and all these others:

The Fool, The Magician, The High Priestess, The Empress, The Emperor, The Hierophant, The Lovers, The Chariot, Strength, The Hermit, Wheel of Fortune, Justice, The Hanged Man, Death, Temperance, The Devil, The Tower, The Star, The Moon, The Sun, Judgment, and The World.




Why bring this into the law school classroom, even if it's not witchcraft to you?

You sound like you deliberately want to offend non-secular students.

Go with baseball cards, or something less controversial. You'll keep your fun, students will have your respect, and it will be a fair and neutral environment regardless of religious preferences?

And you will definitely have shown a greater respect toward those student and faculty you spoke with at Marquette. Please reconsider, even if you reject the "witchcraft superstition" angle for yourself.
8.10.2007 6:31pm
David Chesler (mail) (www):
There is no limit to this line of thinking.

The limit is whether there are real people -- whether there are likely to be real people in that classroom -- for whom this would, as kamatoa said, probably dredge up a spooky feeling.

The "no good purpose" concept in harassment, mentioned earlier this week, is generally poor, but there isn't much purpose in using a Tarot deck as opposed to some other deck or some other randomizer.

I wouldn't be comfortable with it.

I also wouldn't be comfortable with the Professor taking a US flag and tearing it into enough pieces for the class and writing student names on the pieces.

Murphy's analogy of a professor in a public setting bring in religious prayer cards of the saints and Popes is very apt. Those who think they're actually holy would be uncomfortable from the casual use; those who don't like the religions of others disrespected would cringe; those who want to avoid objects that others use in worship forbidden to them would also be offended.

This is not a "it could lead to dancing" joke, this is actual people, and enough that some would be in that class, who would be made uncomfortable for no good reason. (In the course of the thread, the Professor's position seems to have shifted from "this would be a nifty idea" to "I have the right to do this and folks are trying to limit that right, so I will dig in.")
8.10.2007 6:34pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Christine, David Chesler, St. James: Let me ask again -- why exactly is it that I should plan around a few people's (not those of all "non-secular students" by any means) belief in witchcraft, or demons, or the dark arts, or whatever else it is that makes Tarot cards supposedly offensive?

If they want to believe in that, that's fine. But why should the rest of us, in the 21st century, accommodate ourselves to their beliefs, not even when we're talking about them, but whenever we're talking in their presence?

And Christine, sounds like you'd even suggest that I not use playing cards. Isn't this a pretty solid indication of where this thing is headed -- no playing cards, no Halloween costumes, no Harry Potter references, no rules of thumb, no picnics, nothing that anyone somehow for any reason might conclude is somehow offensive to him?
8.10.2007 6:37pm
David Chesler (mail) (www):
Why? Didn't it just get discussed that it's polite to avoid religious issues if we can?

And isn't this the kind of slippery slope argument you usually reject?
8.10.2007 6:41pm
GMW:
I wonder how quickly you'll get invited back to Marquette University with a "to hell with them" attitude.



As a Marquette Law School graduate (1987), I certainly hope the administration, faculty and students aren't as blinkered and as hyper-sensitive as you make them out to be. If they are, I consider my yearly donations to have been wasted.

More power to you, Professor Volokh. A clever idea.
8.10.2007 6:41pm
St. James (mail):
I do not agree that ordinary objects and secular practices should be shunned from the classroom because of the possible religious orthodoxy of a theoretical student. It is literally not possible to tailor one's actions to be inoffensive to all religions simultaneously.

I think many of you are ignorant of religions, or religions other than your own.

Tarot cards are not considered a "secular practice" to the majority of religious; whether students at that age are strong enough in their religious committments to tell a strong-willed professor that they are uncomfortable with that Tarot Cards daily in their classroom is not a position any young law student should be put in.

It's not oversensitivity, it's a clear lack of respect for other religious traditions in a public school.

Those of you comparing this to a dress-up day on Halloween, or the presence of cola cans and coffee in the classroom are really stretching basic religious tenets. It's not "harmless fun" to everyone, and asking them to ignore these activities every day they step into the classroom shows just a basic lack of respect.

What's next?
An ouiji board to help you decide whose raised hand should be called on first?

Prayer beads to help you keep track of who has participated in the discussion and who has not?

Tarot cards fall into those categories more than somebody else drinking a can of cola, because everyone who wants to learn must listen and be drawn into the discussion. And we know there will be joking and discussion, because so many are already anticipating the "fun" this will introduce to the classroom.
8.10.2007 6:43pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
I see nothing wrong with Prof. Volokh's plan. Those who would stop him from doing this for fear of offending some class members have the same mentality, in my view, as those who so steadfastly oppose prayer in school, at football games, etc. I think the Court has gone too far in eliminating prayer from our public activities; just because a few people may be offended is no reason to prevent the large majority from engaging in an activity they find very useful, very helpful.

Perhaps Prof. Murphy is opposing the use of the Tarot Cards to try to teach the lesson that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If school prayer is impermissible for fear of government endorsing a religion, then so too is even the light-hearted use of another "religious" symbol, the Tarot Cards. If so, I wish he'd be more upfront about it. Me, I think that just because the Court ruled the wrong way on one of them is no good reason for adopting the easily-offended tactics of our opponents.

Harry Potter is fiction. Halloween is an opportunity to dress up and have fun, not a tool of Satan to turn 10 year olds into devil worshippers. Tarot cards used to randomly pick students to call on are not talismans of evil, just pieces of paper with funny pictures on them.
8.10.2007 6:46pm
scote (mail):

if you persist in exercising your right to be offensive you will be being intentionally offensive, which is the mark of a jerk.

I'd say getting huffy over a deck of cards is the sign of a jerk--but I'm open to more arguments to the contrary.

I'd like to think that we'd gotten past the age of witchcraft--you know, left it behind in the 1600's and before...

What's next, we have to respect the belief that a student failed a test because another student put a hex on them? Will we need to burn witches at schools of higher education to truly respect religion?

Go with baseball cards, or something less controversial.

Really? I don't believe in organized sports and I find the salaries offensive...

You'll keep your fun, students will have your respect, and it will be a fair and neutral environment regardless of religious preferences?

Mmmm...fair, bland, neutral, grey. Sounds like scintillating education. I'm sure the kids will just soak that up.

I'm surprised that some of you will even concede that Prof. Volokh be allowed to use books since we all know that all books, except for the Bible, are sinful.

It is really sad that we are supposed to "respect" people who are afraid of witchcraft in the 21'st century. This country is sliding backwards in a big way. We shouldn't condone that de-evolution, especially not in higher education.

"I appreciate your point; but if some people are put off because they think that I'm engaging in something that's associated with witchcraft -- witchcraft, in the 21st century! -- then that's too bad for them."

I wonder how quickly you'll get invited back to Marquette University with a "to hell with them" attitude.

You know, I'm guessing that they won't really care if he uses a Tarot deck as a fun way of asking legal questions. They are Jesuits, after all, and they respect learning and learned professors. I suspect they aren't afraid of witches.
8.10.2007 6:47pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Would one of the anti-Tarot card posters kindly explain the reasoning behind their religious opposition to these cards? Is it that they are associated with wiccans? With devil-worship? Is it their common use by fortune-tellers? If the latter, do you believe that the fortune-tellers are actually using some spiritual power to foretell the future through the use of the cards, or do you believe they are con artists?

Truly, I'm not asking to be a wise-ass, I'm very curious to know what the precise religious objection to them is.
8.10.2007 6:50pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Eugene, try these Tarot de Paris set. They look interesting, and not terribly "occult."

Also, did you consider Pokemon cards? I suspect that the current crop of students would be of an age to have played with those as children.
8.10.2007 6:57pm
Arvin (mail) (www):
I think many of you are ignorant of religions, or religions other than your own.

It's not oversensitivity, it's a clear lack of respect for other religious traditions in a public school.

Those of you comparing this to a dress-up day on Halloween, or the presence of cola cans and coffee in the classroom are really stretching basic religious tenets. It's not "harmless fun" to everyone, and asking them to ignore these activities every day they step into the classroom shows just a basic lack of respect.

Every day that I went into the cafeteria at UCLA, they were serving bacon-cheeseburgers. Non-kosher (by definition) bacon-cheeseburgers. Is this disrespectful to orthodox Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, and (I think) Bahais? If so, should the cafeteria stop serving this sort of food?

After all, this is more than an issue of "harmless fun". For some, it is slaughtering and eating animals felt to be sacred and holy. Is it "respectful" to tell these people to just not eat the bacon-cheeseburgers, or to not look at them?

Or is it because those guys are wrong, and the people who feel "icky" about tarot cards are right?
8.10.2007 6:58pm
David Chesler (mail) (www):
Answering scote:
Good grief. You really want law class to be boring. Prof. Volokh sounds like the kind of teacher who tries to make the learning experience engaging--the kind of teacher who inspires people.

Showing "Deep Throat" would be interesting (and educational -- having seen it I don't get what's the big deal) but it wouldn't be appropriate. Not merely discussing it, but showing the entire movie.

Law is already interesting. A little levity injected into a lot of hard work can help. This particular suggestion backfires.

It is not the duty of a professor to cave in to every religious or irrational prejudice that a student may theoretically have.

It's the duty of a polite person not to needlessly offend or make uncomfortable.

We readers and commenters tend to be a libertarian and easy-going bunch. The level of response should indicate that this action would touch a nerve in a real way.

And the proper response is a simple "Oh, I didn't realize so many felt so strongly. I'll try something else."

The number 13, ham sandwiches, caffeine, alcohol, dancing, Halloween, dice, playing cards, and tea leaves all have very clear secular meanings. Those who object to them usually understand that to many people these objects have much less significance.

Notwithstanding their origin or derivations that have been made after them, Tarot cards are not in the same category of mostly secular to most people most of the time.
8.10.2007 7:02pm
Zacharias (mail):
This thread lends great support to the idea of privatizing education. Fortunately Socrates and most of the great teachers of antiquity didn't have to put up with public education.

Here we have Volokh and other commentators wondering how folks can believe in ghosts and goblins in the 21st Century and the rest truly worrying about not offending the Holy Spirit. This sounds like Iraq.

I imagine a better world, with government removed from the business of education, where enterprising and inspiring teachers like Volokh could flourish. In such a world, you wouldn't have to pay taxes to support profs who insulted your religion or who put you in danger of going to hell and, in return, great professors could throw all the religionists right out of their classes for no reason whatsoever, if that's what their tuition contract allows.
8.10.2007 7:05pm
Steve2:
So in the end, nobody's been able to find a "Lawyers Tarot" deck with, say, major arcana of The Brief in Opposition and The Petition for Certiorari and suits of Contracts, Torts, Criminal, and Administrative? I see an unfilled novelty product niche...
8.10.2007 7:11pm
scote (mail):

The number 13, ham sandwiches, caffeine, alcohol, dancing, Halloween, dice, playing cards, and tea leaves all have very clear secular meanings. Those who object to them usually understand that to many people these objects have much less significance

I think that you have just pointed out that some people are expected to suck it up, even by you, but you think fear of a Tarot deck is more important than offending a Kosher Jew, a drug-free Mormon or an anti-gambling Evangelical.

I fail to see the clear contour here--not that I couldn't try and rationalize one--but I just don't see a natural or consistent boundary in what supervisions we can ignore vs. the ones we must bow to because of someone else's paranormal beliefs.

Notwithstanding their origin or derivations that have been made after them, Tarot cards are not in the same category of mostly secular to most people most of the time.

To me, that is an argument from ignorance, that people don't know that Tarot cards started out as just another kind of playing cards. You could argue that it is an argument from belief, but just how many irrational beliefs am I required to kowtow too to be "respectful?" I know you say Tarot cards are in a different category from fear of the number 13 but you haven't offered a reasonable test for separating the superstitions we must tip toe around and those we can ignore.

Showing "Deep Throat" would be interesting (and educational -- having seen it I don't get what's the big deal) but it wouldn't be appropriate. Not merely discussing it, but showing the entire movie.

Objections to salacious sexual material are not necessarily religious and thus the objections to Tarot cards have no direct analog in such a comparison.

Law is already interesting. A little levity injected into a lot of hard work can help. This particular suggestion backfires.

Nothing is inherently interesting and just about anything can be made dull.

While you may be able to enjoy all law lectures, you ability is not shared by all. Your implication that law lectures are inherently interesting to all people is patently false. Good professors make the law relevant and engaging, other professors, well, don't.
8.10.2007 7:17pm
bonhomme (mail):
If EV gave the class the chance to cast a secret ballot on this idea I think it would be easy to know the feelings of the students.

If there are objections from your students, maybe each student could pick out a postcard. After a few semesters you could have a great collection.
8.10.2007 7:18pm
scote (mail):

I imagine a better world, with government removed from the business of education, where enterprising and inspiring teachers like Volokh could flourish.

This world already exists. Although Prof. Volokh teaches at a state school, many the best schools are private. However, that doesn't relieve them from the pressures of religious zealotry.

If we were to eliminate state schools today, this instant, the proportion of religious colleges and university would change dramatically towards religious ones. There is no evidence that eliminating state schools would lead to a utopia of secular education.
8.10.2007 7:23pm
Christine (mail):

I think most fundamentalist Christians enrolled in a public university would have a tolerance for playing cards because they know that most people have no understanding where they came from and that the public sees them as a game. I think that there's also the same tolerance for Halloween--a one day event to dress up and act silly. But Tarot cards are regarded as religious symbols much in the same way that Catholic prayer cards or Greek Icons are seen. The symbols on the cards have meaning to people beyond being a silly picture.

Also its not about allowing a religious minority imposing their views on your classroom, but about you establishing a climate of respect for all your students. What would you think of a professor who assigned a short paper to be due on Rosh Hashanah? Certainly a student could turn the paper in early and thus opt out, but what does that choice say about the professor's feelings about his/her students? Do you think a Jewish student would feel comfortable in that Professor's classroom if he refused to change the date even after she pointed out that it was a religious holiday?

Your idea wasn't offensive at first; it was your choice to say I don't care if I offend my students because their belief is silly that really struck me. A substantial part of the American population equates Tarot with fortune telling. Some believe that participation in such activities is sinful, and you're being intentionally insensitive and disrespectful to their legitimate belief.

BTW, you might be wrong in presuming that students would select the tarot card before the playing card. Many cards have negative connotations while some playing cards can be fun such as the joker or queen of hearts. Unless you distribute significantly more cards than are necessary to cover all the students, you might end up with a fundamentalist forced to put his name on a tarot card. Just a thought if you insist on using this in your crim law class.

Finally, if you wanted to do this in an elective class, I would not object as strenuously. A student could surmise on the first day of Con Law II that you're not a good match for her as a teacher and enroll in a different section quite easily.
8.10.2007 7:29pm
Former Law Review Editor:
As long as some people are throwing out alternatives (EV- don't back down, people upset with this need to get a grip), I'd like to reach back to my senior year of high school Latin course, and a very, very popular motivational tool:

Homie Cards.

Our teacher had stumbled upon a stack of "YO! MTV Raps!" trading cards from the early 1990s (this was in 1999), featuring such fine musical talents as Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer. Even more popular, though, were the obviously flash-in-the-pan ones. My personal favorite, besides the coveted Vanilla Ice, was a group called "Young Black Teenagers," none of whom were young or appeared African-American.
8.10.2007 7:32pm
07 JD:
IMHO, if your students do not regularly volunteer in response to your lecture you are simply not doing your job. Forced methods of class participation such as note cards, “lighting strikes” and the “rolling bolder” are a detriment to the learning environment. As a recent graduate, I can recall being more concerned about whether I was going to be called on rather than listening and learning from the lecture. The costs to the educational experience far outweigh any benefits. After my first semester, I became one of a few students that had the gumption to decide to no longer worry about the “lighting strikes.” When I did not know an answer, I became very comfortable with just telling the professor I did not know (thank goodness for anonymous grading). At least that is what my tarot cards told me to do.
8.10.2007 7:43pm
John Carpenter (mail):
But why should the rest of us, in the 21st century, accommodate ourselves to their beliefs, not even when we're talking about them, but whenever we're talking in their presence?

1) Because you teach in a public university.

2) Because you will have students who truly believe that playing with Tarot Cards in the classroom on a daily basis offends their religious principles.

3) Because students paying tuitition in a public university should not be disrespected deliberately in the name of fun, when there are so many non-offensive alternatives to labeling and calling on the class.

4) Because if your students perceive a choice between following their religious mandates, and receiving a solid education at a public law school, some may tend to drop out.

5) Because if #4 above happens, based on something that could easily be avoided to demonstrate a mutual respect between professor and student, you have failed at least a number of your students.

6) Because your choice of cards favors secular and non-committed who would like to participate in these activities, over those who would wish only to study law.

This is not difficult case law being confronted. This is not the reality of a former time, where disrespect to others was enshrined in the Constitution, but is necessary to struggle with to practice law.

This is an optional daily activity that you are forcing upon anyone who remains in that classroom.

Your further comments here show disrespect to those who hold differing religious beliefs than you, and perhaps a different intensity of these beliefs. Ridiculing your students is not the best way to reach them, which is necessary to teach them.

Someone above suggested that some students will be more in tune to the class because of the introduction of fantasy cards, but this will be offset by those who truly object and there will be at least a handful of them.

Why not avoid the slippery slope, and avoid bringing fantasy games and Tarot Cards into a criminal law class? The casebook material will provide plenty of opportunity for fun, and for struggling with controversial issues.
8.10.2007 7:45pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Oh, I didn't realize so many felt so strongly.


With all due respect, how do you get "so many" from this thread? That the people who would be offended by it are quite vocal, yes, but this thread hardly provides a quantitative measure of how many will be offended... particularly how many students at Eugene's university.
8.10.2007 7:45pm
dr:
i think the tarot cards idea is great, but what about mexican loteria cards -- you know, these things:
http://tinyurl.com/27bd8t

not going to offend anybody, but still really cool and not boring old index cards or baseball cards...
8.10.2007 7:46pm
dr:
i think the tarot cards idea is great, but what about mexican loteria cards -- you know, these things:
http://tinyurl.com/27bd8t

not going to offend anybody, but still really cool and not boring old index cards or baseball cards...
8.10.2007 7:46pm
WWJRD (mail):


W.W.J.R.D.?

(What Would John Roberts Do?????)
8.10.2007 7:46pm
dr:
sorry for the double post...
8.10.2007 7:48pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
John Carpenter, since you seem to have all the answers, could you explain how to avoid the slippery slope of being unable to offend anybody? If there's a Muslim in a class taught by a female professor, may she insist on not wearing a burqa or even gasp wearing a sleeveless blouse or showing her ankles? If she can do such truly offensive things, on what basis do you distinguish the Muslim's deeply, sincerely held religious beliefs about women showing off their bodies and the old school Catholic / fundamentalist Christian students sincere religious belief about the Tarot cards?
8.10.2007 7:51pm
scote (mail):

I think most fundamentalist Christians enrolled in a public university would have a tolerance for playing cards because they know that most people have no understanding where they came from and that the public sees them as a game.

Ironically, Christine, it is the Christians who have no idea where Tarot cards come from. The are card for playing card games in medieval times. It isn't until at least the 18th century that there is any evidence of being used for fortune telling, and even that didn't become entrenched until Aleister Crowley's occult movement that Tarot card became so associated with the occult.

So, Christine, if, as I have reported, the origin of Tarot cards is entirely innocent will you set aside your objections to them? Or is your objection not based in fact but on beliefs that cannot be countered by facts?

If your objection to Tarot cards is about establishing a climate of respect, would you not also wish to engender a climate based respect for facts over demonstrable misinformation? Or should respect mean catering to the irrational beliefs of every student?


BTW, you might be wrong in presuming that students would select the tarot card before the playing card. Many cards have negative connotations while some playing cards can be fun such as the joker or queen of hearts. Unless you distribute significantly more cards than are necessary to cover all the students, you might end up with a fundamentalist forced to put his name on a tarot card. Just a thought if you insist on using this in your crim law clas

Modern "French Deck" playing cards not be objectionable? After all, the royalty represents the idea of the divine right of kings and the caste system. In such a system, the leaders and peasants are born to their places and will never change. Further, royalty represents the idea of a religious government with kings chosen by god. Both of these ideas are anathema to modern democracy and American Constitutional democracy in general. Why should that not be offensive?

Personally, I don't think the cards are offensive, be they Tarot or French decks. Both are decks originally designed for card games with no religious implications and both are still used for that purpose.
8.10.2007 7:56pm
WWJRD (mail):
Every day that I went into the cafeteria at UCLA, they were serving bacon-cheeseburgers. Non-kosher (by definition) bacon-cheeseburgers. Is this disrespectful to orthodox Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, and (I think) Bahais? If so, should the cafeteria stop serving this sort of food?


Were you able to avoid that cafeteria if you so chose?

Can students easily opt out of the Tarot Card criminal law class with Volokh? That's a question that has been asked several times on this thread, but not answered.

Plus, is there a religious tenet against participating in meals where others are eating meat?

Someone above said there is nothing in the Mormon religion against participating in activities where others consume cola or beer.

That's ignorance about the religion.

Again, students will be forced to listen and "play along" with the Tarot Card silliness, where nobody is forcing the meat or cola, just quietly consuming it.

If these cards were something silently distributed for private classroom consumption (read silently) then there is no need for religious students to participate.

But if this is something the professor will be verbally reading aloud in each class session, it's very hard to ignore and decline "participation". It would be like reading a prayer every day re. religious non-participation, or reading a horoscope every day re. just to be silly because I can.

Plus, I suspect he enjoys creating controversies so long as his own principles are not disrespected.
8.10.2007 7:58pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
For those who consider Eugene "disrespectful" to some potential offended students for insisting on going forward with this idea, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Some ideas are sufficiently ludicrous to deserve disrespect, and sometimes the persons who hold those beliefs need to learn the hard way that they have no right to control other people's behavior just because it might offend them.

Nobody has yet answered my question to explain WHY the cards which are most commonly used today by con artists to prey on the gullible are considered demonic or offensive to the beliefs of certain Christians. If you can't explain the basis for a belief, it's certainly not entitled to much respect.

If evolution comes up as some tangential topic in class, must Prof. Volokh avoid it, or may he be "offensive" by stating his true feelings, declaring that science has pretty conclusively demonstrated that evolution exists, that the world is more than 6,000 years old, that mankind evolved from earlier hominid creatures which ultimately evolved from fish which ultimately evolved from the primordial ooze?

My reaction to the easily offended in this thread is precisely the same as my reaction to the Muslims who were offended by the Danish cartoons... get over it. You have no right to not be offended. The rest of us need not change our behavior to make you feel better. And, as I stated in my earlier comment, that works both ways. If a Catholic teacher wants to use Saints cards as part of his pedagogical technique, that's fine with me, too, and any Jews or Muslims or Mormons or Wiccans or Scientologists who might be offended by that need to suck it up, too.
8.10.2007 8:00pm
theobromophile (www):

Do you think a Jewish student would feel comfortable in that Professor's classroom if he refused to change the date even after she pointed out that it was a religious holiday?

Well, considering that Prof. Volokh plans on using a plain deck of cards as well as a Tarot deck, and allows students to choose, I'm not sure how this is even relevant to the issue.

What people are really objecting to is not the required use of tarot cards (as there is the option of normal playing cards); not the practice of witchcraft (as they will only be shuffled); but their mere presence in the academic classroom. What next? Will a student throw a fit when a Catholic professor decides to wear a crucifix on a necklace?
8.10.2007 8:00pm
John Carpenter (mail):
PatHMV:

OK if a state-school professor starts each class off with a prayer? How about a pagan chant? Anti-semitic verses? Shouldn't we be toughening everybody up, disabusing as many privately held religious notions as we can?

Respect is a two way street.

Here, the professor has shown he cares more about being liked as a fun guy, than he does about being respected.

Something about winning the battle, but losing more than one realizes.
8.10.2007 8:05pm
r78:
I guess I am missing something. Do you have your students write their names on the cards?

If not, why would they even see the cards - except from a distance when you are shuffling through them in front of the class.

If you are passing the cards out and having people write their names, I am positive that in that situation if I were a student, I would write someone else's name on the card so that I wouldn't get called on.
8.10.2007 8:07pm
r78:
OOPS - just read your post more carefully and answered my questions.

You may want to rethink that - passing the cards out thing.
8.10.2007 8:08pm
John Carpenter (mail):
Will a student throw a fit when a Catholic professor decides to wear a crucifix on a necklace?

Will they be using this as a prop every day, labeling students and calling out Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, St. Joseph, St. Jude, evil Judas Iscariot (that's the bad card)?

Do you think non-Christians represented by their specialty non-discrimination groups pitched a fit when there was Christian prayer time every day?

Why couldn't they just sit quietly and tune it out, as an opt out exercise?
8.10.2007 8:09pm
scote (mail):

Someone above said there is nothing in the Mormon religion against participating in activities where others consume cola or beer.

That's ignorance about the religion.

Speaking of ignorance about religion, I have yet to see any one answer PatHMV's querry:

Would one of the anti-Tarot card posters kindly explain the reasoning behind their religious opposition to these cards? Is it that they are associated with wiccans? With devil-worship? Is it their common use by fortune-tellers? If the latter, do you believe that the fortune-tellers are actually using some spiritual power to foretell the future through the use of the cards, or do you believe they are con artists?

There has been much huffing and puffing about Tarot cards being religiously offensive but no one has cited any specific religion's official doctrine on the subject. So far all the objections have been vague insinuations of witchcraft, paganism and demons, with no concssion to just how medieval those notions are. (And, ironically, Tarot cards had no such connotations in medieval times--boy have we slid backwards, we are beyond medieval ;-p )
8.10.2007 8:10pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
dr: Excellent idea; I might well give people the loteria cards option, too -- I've only seen them a few times, but I've always liked them. I did a quick google and amazon search, though, and couldn't find many places that sold them; can you recommend any? Thanks!
8.10.2007 8:12pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
John Carpenter... As I thought I made clear in my earlier posts, I disagree with the Court's current stance on school prayer, thus I would allow a class to start off with a prayer, so long as the student was not compelled to actually join in the prayer and could merely stand silently.

Look, here's my philosophy, summed up in how I believe we should handle Christmas cards. If you're a Christian, send a Christmas card. If you're Jewish or Muslim or atheist who receives a Christmas card, don't be offended, but appreciate that your friend wishes you well in accordance with the tenets of his belief. If you are a Christian and you get a Happy Hanukkah card, don't be offended, but appreciate that your friend wishes you well in accordance with the tenets of his belief.

If a professor in class wants to have a little light-hearted moment in class with some pieces of paper with drawings on them, don't be offended, but accept that he sees no evil in the things and is not offering you evil, just having a bit of fun. In other words, lighten up and don't be so easily offended. Other people have different beliefs than you. Sometimes in life you will have little choice other than to deal with these people. Learn that lesson early.
8.10.2007 8:15pm
Armagh444 (www):
Based on my own memories of my 1L year, which wasn't all that long ago, I don't see how any student is going to have the time or energy to get offended by much of anything.

To get back to the point of your post, which was to ask for deck suggestions . . . I haven't been able to find any that really qualify as "legal" or "crime" oriented, but there are plenty of amusing decks out there, like the Hello Kitty deck mentioned up thread. Some other fun ones include the Manga Deck (the print quality isn't the greatest, but it's fun and there's plenty of white space), the Gummy Bear Tarot Deck, and the Housewives Tarot Deck (which I think is hysterical, though I think some folks will miss the joke).
8.10.2007 8:17pm
Fub:
PatHMV wrote at 8.10.2007 6:46pm:
I see nothing wrong with Prof. Volokh's plan. ...
Nor do I, although I might prefer dice, if only because the more subtle techniques necessary to get uniformly distributed random draws from a population greater than 6 by rolling them might serve to educate any innumerate students.
Harry Potter is fiction.
That's a relief. I was beginning to think it was a new religion that required standing in long lines with a $25+tax tithe to join.
Halloween is an opportunity to dress up and have fun, not a tool of Satan to turn 10 year olds into devil worshippers.
At least in my limited experience, 10 year olds don't need Halloween for that. They already are devils.

Oh wait, you said devil worshippers! I stand corrected.
8.10.2007 8:21pm
On The Way...:

Also, did you consider Pokemon cards? I suspect that the current crop of students would be of an age to have played with those as children.


As a member of the current crop of law students, those cards from Magic: the Gathering would be better, or possibly POGS. Of course the problem with POGS is they are rather small, and round. Pokemon cards will be good in about three years.

I have a not-exactly-on-topic question. How can law school be considered public education, even if it is affiliated with a public university? Every student in law school has had to achieve a basic level of education above and beyond that provided by the truly public (i.e. K-12) school system. Every student has also had to meet numerous other criteria to get accepted into the elitist environment that is law school, it's not like any member of the public can walk in off the street and enroll, so how can it be classified as public education?
8.10.2007 8:36pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
lol, Fub. But aren't greater numbers of innumerate students who are ignorant of the ways of dice a good thing? Makes it easier to separate them from their money!
8.10.2007 8:40pm
scote (mail):

so how can it be classified as public education?

The same way government employee's can be called public employees or public servants. That doesn't mean they'll necessarily help **you** even if you are a member of the public.

Of course, you'd have to ask the Brits why "public schools" there are actually the private ones...
8.10.2007 8:41pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Thanks for the update on pop culture, On The Way. I would have sworn Pokemon was older than the Magic: the Gathering cards (which I knew of, but whose name I couldn't remember). But there's been an endless line of younger cousins, then younger siblings, and I can't keep them all in order...
8.10.2007 8:44pm
WWJRD (mail):


You know what really would be funny and earn EV the spooky guy reputation?

If the student who selects the Death Card is somehow mysteriously killed. (ok,ok it could be a boring car accident) midway though the semester!

Oooh, scary scary!! Betcha throw away the Tarot Cards idea then...
8.10.2007 8:55pm
scote (mail):
I suppose the "Tarot cards are religiously offensive" crowd is also offended by Orin's latest post:

[Orin Kerr, August 10, 2007 at 7:51pm] Trackbacks
My SCOTUS Crystal Ball is Telling Me that the Supreme Court will agree to hear Hepting v. ATT, the NSA state secrets case that will be argued before the Ninth Circuit next week.

He isn't just talking about a crystal ball as an ordinary object. He's actually using it for blasphemous divination. Clearly Prof. Kerr is in cahoots with Satan. 1L students should avert their eyes!

If the student who selects the Death Card is somehow mysteriously killed. (ok,ok it could be a boring car accident) midway though the semester!

Oooh, scary scary!! Betcha throw away the Tarot Cards idea then..

That would be what's called a coincidence. Those are the kinds of things that innumerate and irrational people use to build up superstition and the origins of why people are so afraid of Tarot cards: irrationality. Science helps us separate what seems to be true ("He dropped dead after signing the death card! The deck did him in!") fr