Sasha Volokh is right to point out that not all left-wing criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic or otherwise biased, even in cases where the critics attack Israel while ignoring other government that are guilty of similar offenses to a much greater extent. As Sasha puts it:
For instance, one might think that only Israelis are sane, basically rights-respecting, and receptive to basic Western values — so that one can appeal to Israelis' basic principles in arguing that they're acting wrongly. Or one could believe that only Israel — and not Sudan or China — has a healthy enough democratic culture that this sort of treatment will change its policies. In other words, far from being an anti-Semitic policy, the boycott could be an act of deep respect for Israel, essentially saying: "Only you guys aren't savages; we think you might actually listen."
But I am skeptical that this distinction really does account for the vastly disproportionate focus on real and imagined Israeli offenses in many left-wing quarters. The problem is that even other liberal democracies don't get even a fraction of the criticism that Israel gets when they enact comparable policies.
Consider the case of France, which doesn't get so much as a tiny fraction of the hostility directed at Israel, even though most of the accusations typically made against Israel could just as easily be leveled at the French government. The French comparison is far from the only example of anti-Israel double standards. But it has the virtue of highlighting that double standard with unusual clarity because the main arguments used to defend the double standard in other cases simply don't apply to France. The French surely accept "basic Western values," and have a "healthy democratic culture" at least as much as the Israelis do. Let's consider the bill of indictment that left-wingers could make against France were they so inclined:
I. Human Rights Violations.
The French state's likely complicity in the 1994 Rwandan genocide (see here and here) by itself dwarfs all the human rights offenses that can reasonably be charged against the Israelis. France's draconian anti-terrorism laws infringe on civil liberties as much or more than Israel's do, and much more than those of the US. Yet even utterly bogus claims of Israeli "genocide" get more attention than France's role in Rwanda.
II. "Imperialist" Occupation.
For those who believe that occupation is the greatest of all evils, there is the fact that French troops have repeatedly occupied various African nations over the last 40 years in order to prop up regimes that support French economic and political interests or help overthrow those that don't. This, despite the reality that the security threat these governments pose to France is negligible compared to that posed to Israel by its Arab neighbors. When it comes to the traditional left-wing bete noir of "imperialism," the Israelis are pikers compared to the French.
III. Mistreatment of Muslim minorities.
Finally, France's treatment of its large Muslim minority leaves - to put it mildly - a great deal to be desired, and is hardly better than Israel's treatment of its own Muslim Arab minority (which, I agree, includes a great deal of unjustified discrimination). France's restrictive labor policies have led to 14% unemployment among the country's mostly Muslim immigrant population, with much higher rates than that among the young. The government has also forbidden Muslim students to wear veils and other religious symbols in public schools - a restriction on Muslim religious expression that goes far beyond anything done by the Israelis.
I do not claim that all these French policies are completely indefensible (except for the Rwanda case). To the contrary, there are at least minimally plausible arguments for all of them. For example, I have some sympathy for French arguments that the regimes their troops prop up in Africa are often less bad than the likely alternatives.
But similar arguments can be used to defend the parallel Israeli policies; If French-supported African dictators may be better than their rivals, there is at least an equally strong case that the Palestinians are better off under Israeli occupation then left to the tender mercies of Hamas and Fatah (the realistic alternatives). Despite their many (often legitimate) grievances against the Israeli government, Israeli Arabs almost uniformly reject proposals to transfer their villages and towns to Palestinian rule. The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza has not noticeably improved the lot of Gaza's Arabs, and may well have worsened it.
It is, I think, still possible to make a left-wing case that, overall, Israeli policies are, say, 10% worse than French policies. Perhaps even 50% worse. I don't agree with such claims, but they are not wildly implausible. However, it is utterly impossible for a fair-minded observer with typical left-wing values to conclude that Israel is 100 or 1000 times worse than France. Yet the ratio of left-wing criticism of Israel to left-wing criticism of France is far closer to 100-1 or 1000-1 than 1.5-1.
Perhaps the difference is due to ignorance. Many of those who spend lots of time and energy attacking Israel may simply be unaware of comparable French policies. Perhaps it is due to the far greater media coverage of Israel. But that only begs the question of why so many left-wing intellectuals and activists spend so much more time and effort learning about Israeli shortcomings than French ones, and why a mostly left-liberal media does the same.
Not even the alleged left-wing bias towards "underdogs" and against "the powerful" can explain the disjunction. France is much larger and more powerful than Israel (with about 10 times Israel's population and GDP), and France's enemies are weaker than Israel's are. From any objective viewpoint, France's policies are far more important than Israel's and deserve far greater attention. Perhaps not ten times more, but certainly not 100 times less.
Is anti-Semitism the only cause of the disproportion between left-wing criticism of Israel and those of France? Almost certainly not. Perhaps it is not even the most important cause. But the other likely causes - bias against a nation perceived as more of a US ally than France, sympathy for France's (pre-Sarkozy) anti-American rhetorical stance, an implicit belief that Jews should be held to "higher standards," etc. - are only marginally more defensible.
UPDATE: In case it wasn't clear enough in the original post, I am NOT analogizing France's treatment of its Muslim citizens with Israel's treatment of West Bank or Gaza Palestinians. I am analogizing that French policy with Israel's treatment of its Arab citizens.
However, I AM analogizing the condition of West Bank Palestinians to the condition of Africans living under dictators propped up by French occupying troops. Thus, claims to the effect that "France treats its Muslims better than Israel treats West Bank Palestinians" do not undermine my argument in any way. Defenders of the double standard between Israel and France must instead show that the condition of the West Bankers is overall worse than that of Africans living under dictators installed or propped up by the French military.
As I noted in my original post, both the French and Israeli military occupations can be supported on the grounds that the available alternatives (Hamas, Fatah, various repressive African rulers) are worse. Thus, I'm not necessarily condemning either. I do, however, insist that both be judged by the same standards.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Why Does Israel Get So Much More Left-Wing Criticism than France?
- On pro-Jewish anti-Zionism:
- Boycotting the British UCU Boycott of Israel:
France's last nuclear test was on 27 January 1996, shortly before committing to the CTBT.
Israel may have tested a nuclear weapon once, perhaps in conjunction with South Africa, on 22 September 1979, but the specifics of this incident remain quite mysterious. See here .
Current misbehavior of some could be excused by past behavior of others?
Sasha Volokh was absolutely correct.
Not all critics of Israel are anti-Semites, but all anti-Semites are critics of Israel
But though I tend to support Israel (aside from its recent invasion into Lebanon, which I was opposed to) and focus my outrage on....other injustices, do you *REALLY* need to ask why liberals aren't out marching against African occupation?
Sasha had it right. And I do think there may be a serious issue about squeaky wheels getting grease and the infatada (which deserves to be condemned, but condemning a bunch of terrorists who hate you anyway is such a useless act, no?). But this hardly seems like a serious approach to the argument.
I have a lot of friends who are anti-Israel, or at least used to in college and law school, and when I lived in Europe. And while their anti-Israel passion sometimes was - irritating (as was there desire to talk about it when I just wanted to drink), I never felt any of them were anti-semetic, either towards me or towards Jews in general. Their complaints didn't seen obscene or imaginary, just incomplete. It was nice when people could disagree on an issue without their motives immediately questioned.
Do you know any liberals? Do you know anyone from "old Europe?" Anyone at all?
Do you think the US having nuclear weapons is as great as a threat to world peace as Israel? as Pakistan? as Iran?
Patrick, while I completely support Israel's right to have nuclear weapons, do you really need to ask yourself why Israel having it might appear to a reasonable person to be more of a problem than France?
>>
Tell me why you think a reasonable person would think that Israel having nuclear weapons is uniquely a problem. The answer I would expect to hear, from someone who believes that Israel having nuclear weapons is uniquely a problem, is that Israel is likely to use nuclear weapons against its (real or perceived) enemies as a first strike, and that France is not.
I disagree that a person who believes this is reasonable, given Israel's history of extraordinary restraint relative to its military capability. If they wanted to inflict tremendous damage on any target in the region they could, without recourse to nuclear weapons.
I suppose an alternative theory is that Israel would escalate a conventional conflict which they were losing into an atomic one. This also strikes me as unreasonable, given that no state exists in the region which has the capability of defeating Israel in a conventional conflict.
There is the "rogue Israeli commander" scenario. I think the "Israeli military officers are uniquely prone to sudden and inexplicable acts of nuclear terrorism", a necessary prerequisite for this explanation to fly, is unreasonable.
I suppose another person might suggest that "the Jews" having the bomb uniquely inflames Islamic terrorists and states, which would not feel the need to pursue the bomb absent the Israelis having it. This also does not strike me as a reasonable explanation. Nukes are even more attractive when your enemy doesn't have them than when he does, and even if they weren't the US having nukes gives folks plenty of reason to want them even if the Israelis were only armed with conventional weapons.
Am I missing a reasonable explanation here?
I'd love to see those critical of Israel's policies propose a solution compatible with their human rights ideals which does not also create a hostile state on Israel's border.
For example, according to the detractors, how *should* Israel deal with the rockets flying from Gaza? How *should* it deal with the rockets flying from Lebanon? How would these detractors react if rockets were flying into their own hometowns?
It might be that because of historical or social reasons the French labor laws, or its fanatical secularism in areas such as education, may have a disproportionate impact on the Muslim minority, but the system was not designed to favor non-Muslims and disfavor Muslims. Hence their situation is more akin to Israeli Arabs, which are also citizens, though it might be that, like in France, they are victims of the majority's racism of suffer disproportionately under facially neutral laws (I am far more familiar with France that with Israel).
Though I can accept that French Muslims are as well or as badly treated as Israeli Arabs, I don't think anyone can validly affirm that Palestinians in the West Bank have the same treatment by Israel than Israeli Arabs. When that happens, I think most of the criticism against Israel will disappear.
With respect to things like the Indochina wars (which happened before most of us were born) and the Algeria war (which is also more than 40 years old), they were criticized quite severely in their time, both inside France as well as internationally. The Algeria war was the proximate cause for the constitutional changes in France that created what is called the 5th Republic. However, the Algeria War ended officially in 1962. Should we keep harping on it after 45 years? Are we seriously saying that Israel cannot be criticized for what is happening today unless we devote equal time to criticize events taht happened 50 years ago? what about what the Germans dis in the 40s? That was bad too. Why stop there? shouldn't we also talk about Israel and American conquest of the west? or the Spanish conquest of America? The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is relevant and can be criticized (both with respect to the Israeli and the Palestinian actions) because it's happening now and because what happens there impacts significantly what happens in the rest of the world. Regretfully the Indochina or Algerian Wars are only relevant nowadays for history buffs like myself.
BTW, until very recently, the Algeria War was the last publicly acknowledged use of torture (by both sides, the French and the independentists) and till recently was the frame for most debates on the usefulness or not of torture. Regretfully, we have recently shifted that frame from Algeria in the 50s to America fifty years later.
The fact that the "Why does Israel get criticised so much" post does not mention the word settlements is rather telling - it is the settlements which are the main reason why Israel is criticised.
Don't forget Norway. Ther casual anti-Semitism one encounters there from even well heeled, well-to-do ostensibly cosmopolitan types is shocking. That said, maybe I just move in the wrong circles . . .
Who said it was, Justin? Somin's point is that there's a jarring discrepancy between condemnations of the two. It's relative comparison. You don't have to assert a love fest to make that point. So ditch the herring . . .
I can't speak for all liberals, but for me, the idea of taking someone's land is one of the worst actions a country can take. I think it's worse that killing people. I guess I assume there will always be people attacking one another, but to have any chance of peace and stability, the first rule is no country should be allowed to take land and settle civilians on it (temporary forced no-man lands may be sometimes required). As far as I can tell, that's the difference between my position and the Right's position. Do people on the Right think it's okay to settle civilians on land gained through war (even if the other country attacks you first), and settle civilians on it? Is it sometimes justifiable? Sincere question here.
"Israeli Arabs almost uniformly reject proposals to transfer their villages and towns to Palestinian rule."
I don't think the article really supports that. Only one palestinean is quoted in support, the rest is from Sharon. Does anyone have anything else to support that? That would significantly change my view of Israel's policies.
Almost. I think the settlements are the single biggest reason why Israel is criticized in the Arab world; but, I don't really think they register in the Western consciousness. I think that most Western leftists despise Israel because of its very close association with the United States.
The comparison of Israel to France is, in my opinion, a stretch, to say the least. However, accepting it for discussion, I think the reason that France does not get as much criticism as Israel is because its not seen as an American puppet by Western leftists. Western leftists believe that Israel gets away with nothing that the United States doesn't allow and they see Israel as a willing accomplice in American imperial dominance of the Third World.
It isn't? There's not much outrage for Sudetenland Germans who were expelled post-WWII. Or for East Prussia. Or for China's border provinces absorbed during the Qing conquest of Western Eurasia (Xinjiang, etc.). History is replete with such instances. There's probably even a good argument for it: legitimacy given to land gained from a defensive war tends to deter aggression, since it raises the potential costs to the aggressor.
As for Israeli Arabs rejecting said proposals, see Memri,
I hope you can understand in the broader scheme of things that Israel did not take anyone's land. They were given land by a third party, and then won a war that they did not start and held onto land in self defense. I think its difficult to argue that their need for self defense is purely imaginary.
Patrick,
When both Israel and its (legitimately dangerous) enemies think that Israel is in a war for survival, the risk of them using nuclear weapons is much greater than France or the US using nuclear weapons. I don't think that's Israel's fault (as I noted, I support Israel's right to have nuclear weapons), but I think its obvious why the concern is much greater.
As a general aside, does anyone know the relative percent of posts in the Volokh Conspiracy that relate to substantive issues in the Israel-Palestine debate vis a vis ones that discuss whether opponents of Israel are just bad people? Would it be silly to ask why the VC treats Israel so different than other issues in that regard?
Policies of a nation should be judged in the context of what alternatives are available. A few years ago, the criticism would have read "Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza."
But Israel pulled out of Gaza unilaterally, and pulled its settlements out. Do the results suggest that it would be reasonable for Israel to pull out of the West Bank?
If you were running Israel today, what would you do?
The entire piece asks the question "why don't liberals condemn France, because years ago they did some bad stuff"? The discrepancy that you cite simply does not exist --- France is not doing to anyone what Israel is doing to Palestinians. The author may as well be asking 'why don't liberals criticize the Mayans' whose human rights records was worse than that of Israel or France.
All of these things ARE still harped on by the Left.
Not even if, but only if. There is nothing inherently wrong with the idea that an aggressor should be punished with the loss of national territory, especially if that prevents the aggressor from future acts of aggression.
thanks for the link, I appreciate it. Though regarding history, there are lots of things that have been done, but that's no reason to support/allow them.
Advisory opinion, Jeek:
Taking land from the aggressor usually punishes the people displaced and not the leader who initiated the war, no? There was no talk of giving Kuwait part of Iraq, or the U.S. part of Afghanistan.
Justin:
I understand the need for self-defense, and that explains many of Israel's actions. But some things are not explained and leaves me wondering what their true motives are (ie civilian outposts, settlements surely don't make those civilians safer).
There are only two possible end results to the conflict: either Israel annexes the Palestinian land and gives the Palestinians Israeli citizenship, or it gets completely out of the Palestian land and palestine becomes an independent country.
For forty years Israel (seems to) have tried for a middle ground: land without people. Hence the settleemnts, the annexation of East Jerusalem, etc. But land without people, even if it might have been possible 40 years ago it is no longer so. Israel could not do today something akin to the expulsion of the Sudeten Germans, first because there is no longer a country, like Germany, that had lost a war and had therefore to accept this population reshuffle as part of the peace settlement (Jordan, where most people assume -or wish- the palestians would have to go, "lost" the last war with israel decades ago).
Annexing the Palestinian land, and giving the Palestinians the Israeli citizenship (like the USSR did when, after 1945 annexed half of Poland) is probably even more out of the question, because it will make Jews a minority in their own homeland.
Hence, I see no other option than to actively disentangle Israel from Palestine. What about security, you would ask.
Obviously the current status quo does not provide security, because it is in itself the source for the grievances that generate the violence. Might peace bring security? I don't know. It might. Peace with egypt brought security in that border, peace with Jordan did so too. Peace with Lebanon not that much. It might be a gamble, but it might pay off, and if it doesn't, then, and only then, a new war might be needed, one in which Israel will probably be able to count with far more moral support than it can count on now with the continuos occupation.
So yes, if I was running Israel I would take active actions to break the status quo, and would put a clear, visible - and REACHABLE- goal of an independent and viable Palestinian state as a carrot, and start from there.
It might pay off, it might not, but just remaining as we are now will bring neither peace nor security. The alternative to a clear peace process is forty more years of violence and suffering that is festering the region and the souls of all those involved, Palestians and Israelis alike.
Excuse me for cutting into the conversation with Justin; but, I believe Israel has, over the years, repeatedly stated what the real reason for the settlements is: "colonization."
I put colonization in quotes because I did not want it to be perceived as pejorative. Israel, and in particular, the religious right in Israel, has repeatedly stated that the West Bank (or, as they refer to it, Judea and Samaria) is a vital part of historical Israel and is, by all rights, Jewish land.
The Palestinians, of course, claim that the Zionists are trying to wipe out a thousand years of history by re-populating the area with Jewish settlers. It's basically a battle between two historical claims to the same land.
Both the leader and the people should be punished.
Territorial transfers would always be "situational" - they may or may not make sense depending on the circumstances. Yet why should they be ruled out in cases where they do make sense?
History shows that socialists of nearly any stripe will never get along with "those money-grubbing hook-nosed jews", you understand, and it's always just a matter of time before they get around to acting on their natural instincts in that regard. Perhaps the Cold War was a long interlude where those instincts were repressed, but they're rising again it appears.
First, we provide Israel with an unprecedented level of financial support. That alone is enough to distinguish it from France. Criticism of that is also, to some extent, criticism of American policy, which we all agree we probably have more of a right to do, because we are citizens and have a better chance to change it.
And Second, the fact that there is no large group of people in this country basically blindly defending France and its perfection, like people do with Israel. That means others have to step in and dispute these points, which leads to more criticism in general.
For the American Left, Europe in general-- but France in particular--is the locus of all good, "progressive" government. Why do you think our press paid so much attention recently to the election of Sarkozy? For the press, it was like watching a relative that you much admire do something vulgar and utterly stupid.
France is the country who was willing to stick its thumb in the US's eye, over and over. It is the country that has been in bed with Arab dictators from the days of Nassar. It is the country that looks with distain on vulgar Americans with their hotdogs and pickups. It is the home of "sophistication," culture, and style. I have never met a person of the Left who hasn't harbored a desire to one day move to Paris. In the eyes of the Left, France has everything that the US so sorely lacks.
As for Israel, well... nobody ever held a fashion show in Tel Aviv did they? The Left is not interested in re-examining its attitude toward Israel. They hate Israel in large part because of who its friends are (Bush, the US military). They hate Israel because Noam Chomsky says to. They hate Israel because they believe that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict fits into a bourgeois v. working man paradigm. They hate Israel because there is nothing about Israel they see as worth craving or emulating. Except perhaps the kibbutzim, which Israel has more or less discarded (to their eternal shame).
As a poster said above-- They like France because it is a left-wing nation. And its corollary-- they hate Israel because it is a right wing nation (as in a nation with a strong religious order, and a strong military). And the Left has always been willing to over look the failings of its friends (see: the USSR, China, Cuba for examples).
I'm looking at it from the standpoint of the Israeli governments that have existed since about 1977. Since then Israel has had roughly 23 years of Likud (pro-settler) government and roughly 8 years of Labor (not pro-settler) government. (The numbers overrun the 30 year time period due to imprecise dates.)
Israel has been governed about 75% of the past 30 years by pro-settler governments. That's a strong endorsement of the policy by the Israeli population. How many of these people vote this way from an annexationist perspective is probably less than half; but, it is a significant bloc of the Israeli population.
Yes, one can not say that "Israel" is pro-annexationist; but, it's governments have largely been. Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu, and Sharon all advocated autonomy for the Palestinian people but Israeli sovereignty over the land.
This misses the elephant in the room. There are obvious reasons why Americans talk about Israel more than France or New Zealand or Ecuador: we provide significant financial and military assistance to Israel, and as a result we are hated by people who are avowed enemies of Israel and/or sympathize with the Palestinians.
That our assistance to Israel exposes us to that conflict doesn't necessarily entail that we should stop assisting Israel -- I certainly don't think that -- but it is obviously the most salient difference between France and Israel from an American point of view. It is unclear what value there could be to any comparative analysis that doesn't squarely take that fact into account up front.
Putting it another way, if the 9/11 attacks were carried out by Algerians mad at the US for some purported reason having to do with America's relationship with France, no doubt there'd be a lot more talk about France and a lot less about Israel. Absent that, the comparison doesn't even begin to make sense.
1. Genocide. French complicity in the Rwandan genocide seems to be somewhat overstated in the links provided above. The French don't seem to be innocent, exactly, in that affair---nor do we Americans---but it certainly doesn't look like they actually have "direct responsibility for the 1994 genocide," as reported in the Guardian article.
2. Imperialism. Many European nations were colonial powers in Africa, and European liberals rightly feel guilty about that history. However, having been a colonial power in the past and maintaining a military presence for peacekeeping purposes (whether or not it benefits French economic interests) in the present isn't particularly unusual for a modern state. Whether or not you agree with criticism of Israel on anti-imperialist grounds (I, for example, don't), to pretend not to understand how Israel presents a special case (hint, hint: a group largely European Jews relocating a population of native Arabs) is willful blindness and not worthy of serious argument.
3. Mistreatment of Muslim minorities. This seems to be the area where Somin makes his strongest point. It's also the area where people just care the least. I think a lot of American-style liberals should object (and I think a lot do) to the French government's moves against the wearing of veils. But among leftists generally there are many---and I would suspect without knowing that many Europeans are in this boat---secularists who think suppressing public expressions of religiosity are a proper move.
In short, Prof. Somin makes an interesting point that is persuasive only so long as one pretends to ignore the nature of most criticism of Israel. Further, a lot of the criticisms Prof. Somin thinks should be made of France in fact are currently being made by liberals who, for instance, think that Muslims should be allowed to wear religious symbols in public. Now, I don't doubt that criticisms of Israel get a lot more exposure and are certainly made with more frequency. But to wonder at the comparative frequency of the two criticisms is unreasonable quibbling.
But where to start?
I say, let's do it chronoligically.
Let's start with the territories taken from Sweden through the Peace of Westphalia. I think this is the only fair way to start. We can then try to get the map of the world back to its pre-international confilcts starting place. (I'm not *crazy*: I know this will take a few years.)
So everyone has to go back to where their people were in 1598.
OK--Let's get going! There's a lot of work to be done!
I'm neither Swedish nor Lutheran.
Actually, the post looks at French policies RIGHT NOW, or in the case of Rwanda very recent ones.
Actually, the US also has major military and economic links with France as well, for example through NATO. Moreover, the disproportionate focus on Israel is not limted to US commentary and long predates 9/11.
Strangely, this doesn't seem to register much protest. Despite Egypts rather poor civil rights record.
Again, the disproportionate focus on Israel is far from limited to American leftists and extends abroad. Moreover, France also has many close links to the US, military, economic and political. In recent years, the US and France have cooperated on military interventions in Haiti, the Ivory Coast, and Afghanistan, for example.
Perhaps not. But they certainly are treated no worse than Africans living under dictatorial regimes supported by French occupying troops. That is who I analogized the West Bank Palestinians too, while analogizing French Muslims to Israeli citizen Arabs.
Everybody has a great facially neutral argument about why Israel needs to be destroyed. That's like arguing that we need a good lynching because it will cut down on crime - yep, it may be a facially neutral argument but it is a facially neutral argument very much in the service of a gross, racist attack.
That's a "facially neutral argument" I have a hard time imagining, to put it lightly....
And even if Israel were to be driven into the sea, what chance do you think there would be of peace among the neighboring states? Peace between the neighboring states and Palestine? Among the Palestinians?
It's not just a fiction; it's a fantasy.
But, doesn't look directly at Israeli policies.
There does not seem to be any, other point to the post, other than to distract attention from the barbarity and stupidity of Israeli policy.
The point of criticizing barbarity and stupidity is to expose barbarity and stupidity for its destructive futility, and motivate an improvement in policy, not to arrive at some moral ranking of disparate national policies or to calibrate moral hyperbole by means of otherwise irrelevant comparisons.
Of course we do. And if the Algerians were flying planes into buildings because they wanted us out of NATO, people would talk about that.
Moreover, the disproportionate focus on Israel is not limted to US commentary and long predates 9/11.
I thought db's post was focused on US commentary (cf. the last paragraph). I have no real basis to evaluate what, e.g., the Italian left has to say about Israel vs. France and I suspect db doesn't either.
In any event, there have been terrorist attacks against the US relating to its support for Israel going back to (at least) the 1973 Khartoum assassinations.
These points aside, the implicit claim here is really strange. Are you really contending that terrorism directed against the United States by reason of its support for Israel plays no significant role in increasing the level of discussion of Israel in American political commentary, and so it needn't be taken into account up front in a comparative analysis like this one?
So, your point is that the /Palestinians/ are flying planes into our buildings?
Nah, they're just dancing in the street, laughing and singing, when other people do.
I don't think it was the Left that provided your material.
I thought db's post was focused on US commentary (cf. the last paragraph). I have no real basis to evaluate what, e.g., the Italian left has to say about Israel vs. France and I suspect db doesn't either.
Correction: meant to refer to I.S. here.
Hoosier: the point is that our support for Israel has consequences that our membership in (say) ANZUS doesn't. If radical Maori (or radical Finnish Maori sympathizers) started committing terrorist attacks against the US, we would have more reason to talk about New Zealand than we do now. It's just basic intellectual honesty to acknowledge that.
What races are you talking about? Both the inhabitants of Israel and the West Bank belong to the same race.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Actually, Israel has been largely socialist, not rightwing, from the beginning.
“I can't speak for all liberals, but for me, the idea of taking someone's land is one of the worst actions a country can take.”
“Do people on the Right think it's okay to settle civilians on land gained through war (even if the other country attacks you first), and settle civilians on it? Is it sometimes justifiable? Sincere question here.”
Does this apply to the taking of East Prussia and giving it to Poland after WWII? How about the taking of Sudetenland from its occupants of more than 400 years? All in all, the Allies dispossessed about 16 million ethnic Germans from all over Europe from their land because Germany lost the war. Two million lost their lives in this great population transfer. Then the Allies sent 800,000 ethnic Germans to work as slave labor in the Soviet Union where some 40% perished.
Are you upset that China took Tibet? I must also assume that you supported Gulf War I because Iraq invaded Kuwait with the intention of annexing it.
However, Israel is, as a result of Western Civilization's Judeo-Christian roots etc., firmly rooted in our imagination, in our collective unconscious. As such it receives disporportionate attention. It receives disproportionate news reporting; it receives disporportionate postive support; it receives disporportionate governmental financial and military assistance; it receives disproportionate criticism; and it it held to 'unfairly' disporportionate standards.
I don't think anybody can balance the excessive positive support Israel receives against the excessive negative criticism it receives to determine that —as compared to some mythical "normative" reporting received by all other nations of the world— that the excessive positive/negative outweighs the exceesive negative/positive resulting in a net positive or negative effect, as compared to other nations.
So, while supporters of Israel certainly should point to individual instances of unfair negative reporting on Israel and the unfair standards to which it is held, I don't think it is useful, possible or correct to assert that in aggregate Israel more negative criticism than is appropriate. Certainly not without acknowledging that Israel also receives more positive support that is "appropriate."
I'm confused by your point. Listing grim realities of the world doesn't make much of a case for declining to critique them. Not saying I support or oppose any or all of the actions you've listed, I'm just pointing out it's an odd tactic.
Speaking of odd tactics, the reason I've stayed far, far away from the Israel-Palestine debate is that the debate is almost always focused on impeachment. M&W don't propose solutions for their understanding of America's national interest, much less do they have any idea how to reach a peaceful outcome in the conflict. They simply besmirch the reputation of those with a certain allegiance by pointing out their high level of influence.
Then, rather than make a real case of their own, pro-Israeli forces congeal to blow holes in the M&W book, or in "leftists" or "socialists" or anyone else that has attempted to impeach them. It's one big cross-examination where no one feels the need to put on a case in chief.
While I'm sure some would love to believe that all leftists are holocaust-denying America-haters, and others would like to believe that all pro-Israeli commentators are either blinded by their cultural and religious affiliations or simply begging for the Rapture to come along...the fact is, most reasonable people could probably agree on the following points.
1. History has shown that Jews are likely to be mistreated by a multitude of cultures, sometimes horrifically and severely.
2. Recent history has also shown that our current solution to Point 1 suffers from a multitude of defects that result in extreme violence and difficulties for Jews and Arabs.
I know this is a gross oversimplification. Nevertheless, I'd feel a whole lot better about jumping into bed with one side or the other if someone could come up with some realistic solutions to continuing violence that stand up to real scrutiny, and aren't just designed to discredit the other side.
Those living in dictatorships propped up by France still have a country, a government, elections, control their own borders, electricity, water supply etc.
But the commentators who have commented on the unusually close relationship between Israel and the US, and the ire that relationship raises, are correct. The reason it gets so much more commentary is because of the extent of support and the perceived danger that support puts Americans in (I say perceived danger, because as the richest most powerful symbol of the "the West" I think we would raise just as much ire if we cut our support of Israel to zero).
Another reason that Israel gets criticism I think is because of the Judeo-Christian religion. Many evangelical churches believe that America will be Israel's only friend, and a world war involving Israel will signal the end times. This leads to much tourism of Israel, and a vocal (non-Jewish) support for Israel that doesn't seem to look at the facts. And let's face it, if the evangelical fundies like something, that's a good enough reason for a lot of folks on the left to oppose it.
I bring up the massive population transfers in Europe because they took place about the same time that the modern state of Israel came into being. One of the persistent claims by some critics of Israel is that the Jews “stole” land from the Arabs and forced out approximately 600,000 Arabs who became (with their descendents) what we today call “The Palestinians.” There is a historical debate as to how many Arabs were actually forced out and how many left on their own thinking they could return quickly once the new state of Israel got annihilated. Revisionist historians such as Benny Morris (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem) or Avi Shalim (The Iron Wall) have poured oil on the fire of the controversy with the MSM acting as if they and the other revisionists were the last word on the controversy. As a consequence spokesmen for the Palestinians have demanded a “right of return” meaning they get to return to Israel, take up residence and perhaps even reclaim their property. The “right of return” has been a sticking point in negotiations for decades and the Arabs know full well it’s a deal killer.
If the Arabs have a “right of return,” why don’t the ethnic Germans have a similar right in Europe? After all they really were forced to leave in toto from their ancestral homelands, and two million died in the massive population transfers. Why do the Arabs get a right denied to other people who got displaced at about the same with the direct help of the US? Their case for return is a much stronger one than the Arabs have. It’s another example of the double standard that gets applied to Israel.
Such actions, of course, deserve criticism. The other problem with Ilya's post is that they HAVE been subject to major criticm - perhaps Ilya is unfamiliar with the WTO riots in Seattle, but there are many on the left (myself included) who have either been actively or passively (the latter here) opposed to African exploitation. This description by leftist documentarian Hubert Sauper is, indeed, saddening:
"The idea of this film was born during my research on another documentary, KISANGANI DIARY that follows Rwandese refugees in the midst of the Congolese rebellion. In 1997, I witnessed for the first time the bizarre juxtaposition of two gigantic airplanes, both bursting with food. The first cargo jet brought 45 tons of yellow peas from America to feed the refugees in the nearby UN camps. The second plane took off for the European Union, weight with 50 tons of fresh fish.
I met the Russian pilots and we became "kamarads". But soon it turned out that the rescue planes with yellow peas also carried arms to the same destinations, so that the same refugees that were benefiting from the yellow peas could be shot at later during the nights.
In the mornings, my trembling camera saw in this stinking jungle destroyed camps and bodies."
Whether this gets your attention or not, whether it makes headlines or not, is a function of multiple things, as I mentioned in one of my earlier comments - but this seems like a puerile attempt at shutting down discussion rather than a real discussion about western influence in Africa's affairs.
I get the Sudetenland comparison. I don't get the Tibet comparison--many
No it doesn't. France isn't a member of NATO and has not been one since the mid-1960s.
It almost certainly is the only cause. (Even among "Jewish" leftists, they have long since forsaked their faith.) All the arguments put forth by the Jew haters who hate Israel is lipstick on a pig.
France left the NATO military command structure in 1966 but remained part of the political strucure. It rejoined the military command in 1993.
Great....all those "Jew haters" are antisemetic, to boot.
The difference is that the Israelis welecomed the Jewish refugees from the Arab world and Iran (who, together with their descendants, comprise a majority of the Jewish population of Israel) and the Arab world turned their back on the Arab refugees, sequestering them into "refugee" camps.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Hmm "racist colonization in the West Bank"? What you really mean is that although Israel accepts the presence of Arabs within Israel, Judea and Samaria and Gaza are supposed to be judenrein, in spite of the fact that some parts of these areas, such as Hebron, have had long-standing Jewish populations. There is no room for Jews in the (failed) "Palestinian State", nor for Christian Arabs, whose claim is if anything better than that of the Muslim Arabs, many of whom are relative newcomers. Have you missed the news that Hamas is busily cleansing the areas that it controls of Christians?
Try http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/13407/
Here are are some relevant links including reports on a survey conducted by a Nasserist Arab newspaper:
MEMRI
MEMRI
Daniel Pipes.
Without judging on the substance (I haven't read them, and don't plan on so doing), in a completely positive and non-normative sense, let me tell you that your citations will be far more convincing to those who don't already agree with you if they are not from MEMRI and Daniel Pipes (or, at least, don't make it obvious that this is your source even before so clicking).
Many of us know what it is to be hated for being Jewish, but if you're not careful you may find yourself hated for being David Bernstein!
There's a great story about this. Seems at this time De Gaulle ordered all American forces and servicemen out of France... lock, stock and barrel. Well, ol' LBJ was just FURIOUS when his SoS informed him of this (forget the SoS' name right now). So LBJ sits there fuming, and then without looking up, LBJ glowers to the SoS "Ask him about the graves." The SoS sputters and LBJ says "Tell him that the POTUS wants to know whether France wants us to remove the graves." So the SoS gets together with the pompous De Gaulle and delivers the message, and De Gaulle goes white and... no response.
This is the French, it's just how it is I guess.
I think that if you look at those, you'll find that they cite sources that would be regarded as objective or even hostile to Israel. The problem is that anti-Israeli sources, which is just about every source that isn't pro-, don't want to talk about this.
Also, while it is true that Daniel Pipes has a reputation as an advocate of Israel, that shouldn't be true of MEMRI. Most of MEMRI's output is simply translation of material from the original languages. I've never seen any claim that their translations are inaccurate, and they do translate material that is hostile to Israel, including Israeli self-criticism. If MEMRI has a reputation as biased toward Israel, that can only be because accurately translating material from the Arabic and Persian press shows them in a bad light. That is a fact about the Arabic and Persian press, not about MEMRI.
[...]
Palestinians living in the West who visit the Palestinian Authority are vividly aware of its drawbacks compared to Israel. "There is a difference between the Israeli and the PA occupation," wrote Daoud Abu Naim, a medical researcher in Philadelphia, while visiting family in Shuafat:Rewadah Edais, a high school student who lives most of the year in San Francisco and visits Jerusalem regularly, added, "The Israelis took our land, but when it comes to governing, they know what they're doing." Daniel Pipes, linked above
And this theme is repeated over and over in Israel's history; Israeli Arabs - roughly 22% of Israel's population and fully vested as citizens - have, for example, voiced their support for the barrier being raised in the West Bank, they have voted with their feet repeatedly, indicating they prefer Israeli administration and Israel's form of governance, including the relative comity and stability it provides, over the option of living in Arafatistan. Repeatedly this has been the case.
by an Israeli Arab about his grandfather, also an Israeli Arab.
Hunh? Recognizing that there is very little by way of neutral sources on Israel lost you? And now you say these anecdotes are irrelevant while admitting you haven't actually read the articles? The problem here is not my sources or citations, it is your blatant prejudice.
Though most Israeli Arabs are not as pro-Israel as this letter suggests, it is worth noting that some are:
Israel Arabs ask to be drafted to serve IDF in response to Nasrallah Aaron Lerner Date: 10 August, 2006
Ziad Muadi of the ITIM news service reports today on the MSN website ... that a group of young Arabs, headed by Fuad Nasser, wrote a letter to Minister of Defense Amir Peretz asking to be drafted to serve in the IDF in response to Nasrallah's call for the Arabs of Haifa to leave the city.
"We are proud of Israel, and its just struggle," the letter reads, "and are prepared to carry out any mission that the IDF gives us."
And the World is Silent, Part 2, Part 3
And the World is Lying
And The World Pays
Israeli Arabs in the Trap of Self-Delusion
"Those" whose families include any of the 100,000's lost to genocide might question the value of the accoutrements of their nationhood.
If you all want to scroll up a bit, I've already announced that I'm generally pro-Israel, so saying that Israel does not act as bad as some of its critics claim is something that seems irrelevant to any of my points.
People living under a dictatorship have their electricity, water supply, borders, etc. controlled by someone else. That's what it means to have a dictatorship, after all. In this case, the "someone else" is France.
Ilya is right and you are wrong. Most people and certainly most leftists who are opposed to the policies of Israel are not anti semitic.
As a matter of fact I would say that most anti semites are SUPPORTERS and admirers of Israel. Certainly our current leaders like Cheney and Bush are fevered supporters of the state of Israel at the same time that they personally dislike Jews and think that they are going to rot in Hell.
Reactionaries in this country are the bedrock of real anti semitism just like they are the bedrock of racial hatred towards other minorities. The fact that they like israel should be cold comfort.
I am left-leaning and very strongly opposed to Bush and Cheney, based of their ideology, their policies and their incompetence. But where do you get the idea that they are anti-Semitic, "that they personally dislike Jews?" That’s an ugly, incendiary accusation, and you should back it up. Please provide evidence or a retraction.
Hatred and bigotry has never gone out of fashion... only the targets of hatred and bigotry have. You can understand the average liberal professor a lot better, if you imagine him as a latter-day Bull Conner with a different group to attack, yet less direct power to do so.
The anecdotes and more detailed and lengthier essays serve to inform the general debate, the broader context, relevant to the veridical quality of some prominent aspects of the debate. They weren't originally or primarily directed toward your comments. The veridical quality of prominent aspects of the debate is obviously relevant since to target Israel, or any other country, for criticism surely takes on a different cast depending upon whether the criticism is well informed, temperate and responsibly argued - or otherwise. That is perforce and obviously relevant, unless one wishes to conduct the debate in purely abstract/theoretical terms.
And you may want to lay off the adjectives, you erudite little fella.
But far from erudite I'm a humble sort, though I'm extravagant that way for varied and sundry reasons, all of which I'll keep to myself. As to the other, I'm seeking to inform only some prominent aspects of this debate, not all of them and not all debates. But why take note of my offerings rather than the offerings of others, such as the following, which also was not directly related to the subject matter, at least so as you've taken it upon yourself to define it? Interesting choices you seem inclined to make.
"... Israel continues to deny sovereignty to the Palestinians." jvarisco
Hardly. Those Arab refugees, aka Palestinians (the only multi-generational refugees on the fact of the planet), have denied themselves sovereignty, the devolutions in Gaza recently serve to underscore what has been a decades long phenomenon, since the 1920's and 30's. When Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon, c. 2000, Hizbollah moved in with more armaments, more initiatives against Lebanon's peoples and government, working as a proxy militia for Shi'ia Iran and Sunni Syria, firing rockets and morters into Israeli civilian populations, etc. When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 we only recently witnessed the deteriorations afforded by Sunni Hamas, in part working as a proxy for both Iran and Syria and Saudi and Egyptian players. When Israel earlier withdrew from prominent quarters in nothern Samaria, it too became a haven for jihadists, both local, anti-Israel jihadists and some international, al-Qaeda types as well.
Such real-world, recent historical accounts represent the "sovereignty" those Arab refugees and the wider Arab and Persian Muslim overlords in Iran, Syria and elsewhere have been seeking. It reflects the sovereignty sought, that has played itself out, repeatedly and only with little more than tactical and strategic variations, since the 20's and 30's. If that changes, it won't be because such strategems are appeased or imagined to be something they are not.
Big Lies (pdf) is one source only that serves to highlight some critical aspects of that history
Really? Most of these countries are ruled by dictators with no free elections, and much worse water, electricity supply, etc., than the West Bank. And it is the dictator (often influenced by French interests), not the people, who control the borders and the government. Yes, they still have a "country" in some sense (though I see little value in that). But the Palestinians could have had the same thing (and more) had they accepted Israel's Camp David offer.
If the deployment of troops to prop up "certain despots" and crush their enemies is not "direct interference" or occupation, I don't know what is.
Check your facts. France is a member of NATO, and French troops participate in NATO military operations in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan right now. In 1966, France did withdraw from NATO's unified military command (though not hte alliance itself). SInce then, however, French forces have been reintegrated into the NATO force structure, and France is a key member of the alliance.