Consider two scenarios:
1. An armed madman comes to a place and starts shooting people. None of the people who's around is armed.
2. An armed madman comes to a place and starts shooting people. Several (say, five) people in the vicinity are armed.
Which madman is more likely to be stopped quicker — the one who outguns everyone else 1-0, or the one who is outgunned 5-1?
If this weren't a madman but Jack Bauer — or even an average highly trained soldier — the five may well be unable to stop the one. But otherwise, the odds would seem to be more against the madman in situation 2 rather than 1, no?
No-one can prove anything, of course. Maybe the five would be the first to be shot. Maybe they'd run away. Maybe they wouldn't be around. Maybe they'd shoot and miss. Still, if you had to bet, which would you bet would be the worse scenario for the madman, and the better one for his victims?
Now of course if arming the five people for the extremely rare situation when they'll need to stop a madman will end up causing more harm than good in the much more common situations when there's no madman around, that might be a bad tradeoff. That is the argument I've heard against letting students possess weapons on-campus: They're young, they drink a lot, they'll start shooting when they get into a hot argument in class or at a debate. I'm not sure that's right, but let's say it is.
What, though, is the argument against allowing professors and other university staff to possess weapons, if they choose? (Assume the professors lack criminal records, and assume they go through whatever testing and modest training is required to get a concealed carry permit, or perhaps even some extra training.) One argument is that it's just dangerous for law-abiding citizens to have weapons, because they'll start shooting over arguments or fender-benders. But that's precisely the argument that has been rejected by the 38 states that allow any law-abiding citizen to get a concealed carry license (or, in 2 of the 38 states, to carry without a license). What's more, as I understand it, people who get such licenses have in fact almost never committed unjustified homicide or attempted homicide (or even lesser crimes) using their guns. Whatever the pluses or minuses of shall-issue, the "licenseholders will start shootouts over petty slights" theory has not been borne out.
If Virginia and other states have found that it's safe to let law-abiding citizens carry guns on streets, in shopping districts, in parks, and the like, why wouldn't it be equally safe to let law-abiding professors and staff to carry guns in the university? What magic is there about a university that makes guns in law-abiding citizens' hands (again, let's even set aside college students, if we think they are unusually likely to behave foolishly) more dangerous at a university than elsewhere? I know there are some university professors who are, er, a bit odd. But wouldn't the average professor — or average university employee generally — who wants a concealed-carry license to carry on campus be at least as responsible as the average citizen who wants a concealed carry license to carry outside campus? Given that licensees don't start shootouts over fender-benders, and that gun store employees, police officers eating lunch, and other law-abiding people who are routinely armed don't start shootouts over arguments, why should we think that armed professors (to be precise, that small group of professors who chooses to get concealed carry licensees) would start shootouts at faculty meetings?
What then is the downside? One possibility is that if mad killers know that professors and staff may be armed but students won't be, the killers will shoot the professors first. It's hard to see why this would increase the total death toll, though, especially in cases such as this one. I doubt that the typical mad killer who's willing to shoot any university employees he comes across just in case they have guns would have spared them, and just shot a selected subset of unarmed students (and staff and faculty), if he assumed the employees were unarmed. And in any event, it seems to me that this modest risk is worth running, just as the risk that armed security guards would be shot first is worth running in order to provide the protection that armed security guards might offer.
Another possibility is that the mad killers would just start shooting lots of people very quickly, rather than at the relatively leisurely pace that we've seen in many mass killings. "I was going to walk around killing people over 15 minutes or half an hour," the killer might think (Kleck's Targeting Guns reports two mass killings that happened over 2-4 minutes, but seven that happened over 10 minutes or longer, including five that took 30 minutes or longer) — "but since there's now a substantial chance that I'll be stopped, I'll just shoot as many as I can as quickly as I can." But this strikes me as pretty unlikely; the pace of killings seems to be driven more by the killer's own mad desires rather than by a calculation such as this one.
Another concern might be that the universities would be held liable for their employees' misuse of guns. But, first, I take it universities already have liability insurance policies for possible misuse of weapons by university police officers. The employees who get concealed-carry permits (likely a small fraction of all employees, given that in shall-issue states the general pattern is that only a small fraction of all citizens get licenses to carry) could be added to such policies.
Given the pattern of safe use of guns by shall-issue licensees, I suspect insurance companies won't demand vastly higher premiums from universities for this. And the university could require some extra screening, testing, and training just to make sure that employees who get permits are as reliable as possible. Recall that many armed security guards are trained and screened only modestly, and they are likely to use their weapons more often (since they tend to guard places during high-crime times of day, and are more likely to be called over to the scene of developing crimes, which other armed university employees would rarely have to do). And if one thinks my analysis above is correct, and carrying by employees is pretty safe, but the liability system is unlikely to reflect this sound analysis, then some statutory liability limit — perhaps simply providing that professors and staff are armed on their own behalf, and the university thus wouldn't be liable for their actions — may be sensible.
I've also heard some arguments that suggest universities are different because they are places for reasoning, not violence: They should be gun-free zones (except of course for university police officers and security guards, who for some reason don't count) because that's needed to create the proper climate of peaceful inquiry. But the sad fact is that you can't make a university into a gun-free zone. Mad killers can bring guns, and use them, regardless of what policies you announce. The question is whether they will be able to use them against a disarmed population, or against a partly armed population. Allowing people the tools to defend themselves against the mad killers does not, it seems to me, worsen the climate.
[UPDATE: Finally, to give an even more essentialist version of the argument that universities are somehow unsuitable places for professors to be armed, let me quote a commenter: "There are a million reasons, but one will suffice for now. Schools and guns do not mix. Period. The more guns we inject into a school environment the worse it is for all involved...." It's hard to figure out how to deal with the argument that "Schools [including universities] and guns do not mix. Period." The commenter also mentions that professors "aren't trained for it, and I doubt they would be very good at it," but 38 states have taken the view that all law-abiding adults should be free to get a license to carry concealed weapons, and haven't had serious problems from the concealed-carry holders; the question is why those problems would suddenly appear at universities.]
Again, I should stress that this is not supposed to be a panacea, some guarantee that mad university killers will be immediately stopped. And I should say, as I've noted before, that there may be little point in planning for fortunately very rare events such as this one, which account for a tiny fraction of all homicides in the country. (The yearly average is that mass killings account for less than 0.1% of all U.S. homicides.)
But if we are trying to think what could have decreased the carnage, I've come around to the tentative view that allowing at least university employees to be armed is the likeliest solution. When one person — a not very well-trained person — comes into a place occupied by thousands of people, and kills over thirty, there's a simple explanation for why he could get away with it: Though he was outnumbered, they were outgunned.
If all university professors (and other employees) could be armed, and therefore some would be armed (again, I'm not saying that everyone will be armed, much less will be required to be armed, but only that some will exercise their right to get a concealed carry license allowing carry on campus), he would be both outnumbered and outgunned. Why wouldn't there be a very good chance that they would therefore be able to stop him earlier than he would have stopped otherwise?
All Related Posts (on one page) | Some Related Posts:
- Semi-Automatics Vs. Revolvers:
- A Strange Thing To Assert as Fact:
- A Well Regulated Militia:
- What Exactly Is the Reason Not To Allow Professors To Carry Guns?
- So What Are We Going To Do About It?...
- Tragedies as Occasions for Discussing Ways To Prevent Repeat Tragedies:
- Tragedy at Virginia Tech:
- Shootings at Virginia Tech:
I *don't* think this is a good reason for banning professors from carrying guns (particularly in light of the fact that I *do* believe that one should be required to pass a basic skills and safety test to own a gun, and that I do support a national gun and ballistics registry much like one does to get their driver's license, and that I do support a national gun and ballistics registry), but there you have it.
They don't? What happens in all those domestic disputes one hears about? Oh, I get it. Once they start shooting, they're not "law abiding" anymore. Or is it that a "shoot-out" technically requires someone shoot back?
53B-3-103. Power of board to adopt rules and enact regulations.
(1) The board may enact regulations governing the conduct of university and college students, faculty, and employees.
(2) (a) The board may:
(i) enact and authorize higher education institutions to enact traffic, parking, and related regulations governing all individuals on campuses and other facilities owned or controlled by the institutions or the board; and
(ii) authorize higher education institutions to establish no more than one secure area at each institution as a hearing room as prescribed in Section 76-8-311.1, but not otherwise restrict the lawful possession or carrying of firearms.
(b) In addition to the requirements and penalty prescribed in Subsections 76-8-311.1(3), (4), (5), and (6), the board shall make rules to ensure that:
(i) reasonable means such as mechanical, electronic, x-ray, or similar devices are used to detect firearms, ammunition, or dangerous weapons contained in the personal property of or on the person of any individual attempting to enter a secure area hearing room;
(ii) an individual required or requested to attend a hearing in a secure area hearing room is notified in writing of the requirements related to entering a secured area hearing room under this Subsection (2)(b) and Section 76-8-311.1;
(iii) the restriction of firearms, ammunition, or dangerous weapons in the secure area hearing room is in effect only during the time the secure area hearing room is in use for hearings and for a reasonable time before and after its use; and
(iv) reasonable space limitations are applied to the secure area hearing room as warranted by the number of individuals involved in a typical hearing.
(3) The board and institutions may enforce these rules and regulations in any reasonable manner, including the assessment of fees, fines, and forfeitures, the collection of which may be by withholding from moneys owed the violator, the imposition of probation, suspension, or expulsion from the institution, the revocation of privileges, the refusal to issue certificates, degrees, and diplomas, through judicial process or any reasonable combination of these alternatives.
See also Univ. of Utah v. Shurtleff, 144 P.3d 1109 (Utah 2006) (University regualtion cannot trump state staute allowing possession of concealed firearms on campus).
I'm especially interested in the gap in perceptions between armed civilians and armed professionals. The professionalization of American society seems to have conditioned us to accept armed security guards after a background check and few weeks training, but to NOT accept armed civilans. Why exactly is that?
Does anyone know what checks and training campus security and police have to go through? Or police?
One reasonable compromise that I am somewhat surprised no one has mentioned is specifying and requiring the same level of background checks and training that armed security guards receive for armed civilians. For example, a university could allow CCW holders to carry loaded weapons after going through exactly the same prepartion as the formal security guards.
In order for pilots to be armed, they go through a background check and training and then become Federal Flight Deck Officers. I believe that the details of both the check and the training are classified, but my impression is that both are stricter than that required for security guards and police.
For what it's worth, I do not own a gun and don't have a concealed carry permit. But I have seriously considered going through the training for a CCW once I have a family for the same reason I have insurance. And given the level of responsibility that entails, I would be willing to spend several weeks and several thousand dollars to be trained to the same level as the police with respect to firearms.
For all the ink that has been spilled over the militia clause, I am surprised that no one has suggested creating a "well-regulated militia" of the people, by which I mean citizens of good standing in the community.
What I have in mind specifically excludes arrest powers, but would include detailed training in the laws governing deadly force, weapons handling including safety and proficiency, and some trianing in verbal deescalation.
What are your thoughts?
Admit it, you just want to go to class with a big gun on your hip!
That's the question, but I can see why no one has attempted it yet-- because there is no good answer.
I would not advocate this. I would advocate, however, that someone who has a concealed carry license not be restricted from carrying on a college campus. These are people who are already licensed to carry a loaded firearm everywhere else and as Eugene mentioned, they are an overwhelmingly responsible population subset.
Justin:
It's already illegal for someone who has been involuntarily committed to purchase a firearm. Cho committed himself voluntarily, as part of an agreement with the court, therefore he was not a prohibited person for the purposes of purchasing a firearm. If someone has been involuntarily committed, a record of that would show up at the time of the NICS check and the purchase would be denied. Registration and licensing are not needed in this case, because the background check system already takes care of screening purchasers.
tarheel: A license to carry is not equivalent to "deputizing" anyone. It just provides a person with the instrument they need to exercise their common law right to protection of life and property and their civic right to interfere (if they so choose) in case of an imminent threat to other citizen's lives.
Is it possible for a school (college or university, especially) to make such a distinction about which people are allowed to carry guns?
If I'm an adult student with a C-and-C permit, and I have a professor whose (legal) status is the same as mine (that is, with no other special training or legal status than simply being an employee), is the school able to make this distinction? What about if I'm a custodian at the school?
Again, I'm asking, not asserting. I'm sure that there would be some students screaming that "it's not fair;" but is it legally possible?
Also, of course, there are the myriad potential lawsuits arising from any mishap, and the consequent insurance considerations and other liability issues. It seems to me that many establishments, whether schools or private businesses, simply ban firearms to all and sundry as a matter of course, so that they won't even have to research these potential headaches.
In an actual risk/cost/benefit analysis, many places, including most post-secondary schools, would seem to be better off with a "no guns" policy. It may take quite a bit of research and even professional consultation to evaluate liability risks of allowing (especially employees) to carry weapons. I know that at my college it would take a full-time administrator with a complete secretarial staff, a committee of 8-10 faculty, staff and students, and about 4 years' worth of monthly meetings, followed by open hearings and a few visits from the various union reps, in addition to any actual costs of training or insurance. It takes almost no time and less than $5 to post a sign that says "no guns allowed on the premises;" and the ACTUAL increase in risk is probably negligible for most establishments. I mean, if the chances of my place being assaulted at gunpoint are 1/10000 without a "no guns allowed" sign (so I'm not talking liquor/convenience stores here), and the sign increases my chances of being targeted by even tenfold, well, they're still pretty slim.
At least that's the thinking of this non-lawyer. Would a real lawyer care to correct (at least some of) my misconceptions?
One thing you're forgetting is that there is a significant difference between an airport terminal/airplane and a college campus. All passengers are screened prior to going into an airport terminal. So there's very minimal chance that a deranged lunatic will pass the screening and have the opportunity to use their weapon. The same is not said on a college campus. I can't think of any college campus that makes people walk through metal detectors prior to entering the campus.
I remember there being a lot of consternation about allowing high schools to have metal detectors or armed guards at the doors, but maybe that's a different topic of discussion.
CollegeProf,
A couple of things, first those people who choose to carry a weapon are required to attend classes and training prior to being given a license. So in a sense, they are trained in the proper use and disposition of their weapons. Secondly, you make the assumption that it's the weapons that drive people crazy. Virtually anything can be a weapon. A knife in the cafeteria can serve as a weapon. Also, your argument can also apply to people who drive vehicles. Maybe we should make campuses "auto-free" zones, because who's to say someone's who's dog just died or wife left him, wouldn't succomb to road rage.
Anonymous Reader
Well, schools and guns HAVE mixed, with tragic results. It was illegal for the VT shooter to bring his guns on campus, and it was illegal for him to commit mass murder.
Schools aren't going away, and guns aren't going away either.
If I had the magical power to make all handguns disappear, I would do so. I would also make all nuclear weapons go away, as well as mosquitoes and the Ebola virus. But I don't have that power. More to the point, Congress, police and the courts can't make all handguns go away either.
The US tried to make alchol "go away" in Prohibition. That didn't work. The "War on drugs" tried to make drugs go away. That didn't work either. England tried to make all handguns "go away" and now gun crime is higher than before the ban.
Right now, American society has two choices: Bad and Worse.
The big debate is over which is which.
However, I think a trade off for having CCWs is that this country needs a national ballistics registry -- ideally one that would eventually include all weapons. Perhaps if you want to pass a gun from owner to owner, you would have to enter it into such a database.
What do you think about the pros and cons of such a system?
It strikes me that if you are qualified to carry, you should be allowed to do so on campus as well. If the person carrying is doing their job, nobody around them will ever know they even have a gun -- unless, of course, a madman breaks into class and starts killing people (in violation of scores of laws aimed at preventing gun violance).
Simply asserting that "guns and schools don't mix" without a sound basis for asserting so is exactly the kind of "knee-jerk" response you decry.
You then compound the error by raising the strawman of "deputizing" the professor to "act as a quasi-police officer." Did you even read the original post? NO ONE has suggested any such thing. As a CC holder, I am keenly aware that I am not a cop; as instructor for such a class, it is the first thing I tell the students. I carry for one reason, and one only. Officers have a duty to go into harms way. I have no such duty and unless serious bodily harm is at issue, may NOT do so.
I'll ask two questions; the answer to the first is obvious, the second a challenge.
1) Were you in that classroom on that day, would you prefer to have a firearm and thus some means to defend yourself, or not? (if you say no, you're a liar).
2) Do you offer a viable alternative? Given the repeating incidence of these kind of shootings, simply referring to them as "outliers" and dismissing consideration of how to lessen the carnage is no longer sufficent.
The real danger of undergraduate possession of firearms on campus is that they might shoot themselves, their roommates and people in adjoining rooms by accident when playing with their guns while intoxicated or under the influence of other recreational pharmaceuticals.
Which sorta defeats the purpose. If a gun man comes in, will the prof have time and presense of mind to run for the gun, unleash the safety, and then shoot back? Again, not likely, in my mind.
Sure would be nice to have intermediate scrutiny or an undue burden analysis on the VA General Assembly's regulation of 2nd Amendment rights. I'd even settle for rational basis plus.
Semi?
After a while they heard Cho coming. That's why Professor Librescu was barring the door. Had Librescu been armed, he could have waited in ambush for Cho to come in holding a gun, and shot him immediately.
That brought up an opposite concern I had while forming my earlier post. Is it (currently) possible for someone who has been denied their right to carry a weapon, to sue an establishment if the person then suffers harm on the premises, that might have been prevented had the person been allowed their weapon?
Since there is this fear... why not take the comment earlier about putting tasers behind glass in every classroom on every campus... It can't cost more than a few billion $. The taser is a "good weapon" in that it normally doesn't kill, has li mited range, although effective enough to defend a classroom, and can be made to leave behind trace numbers to identify the unit...
In addition to the fact that even mighty professors and well-trained staff could let passions overtake their judgment and use the gun they are carrying inappropriately, we have the following scenarios:
1. A professor or staff member mistakenly perceiving a threat and shooting an innocent victim.
2. A professor or staff member having the gun taken away from them by a madman, or a student or another professor wanting to commit a crime of passion.
3. A professor or staff member having their gun go off mistakenly, or by accident.
Professor Volokh (and the gun rights gang in general) seem to have an inconsistent view of human nature. We must be protected from awful humanity using guns with our own guns, yet everyone who actually has a gun is a paragon of virtue, prudence, and sainthood.
The only real way to resolve this issue is to arm the faculty in staff in one-third of the nation's campuses, arm the faculty, staff, and students in one-third of the nation's campuses, and prohibit any firearms in the final third. then wait twenty years and look at the data.
Why do folks who admit that they don't know what they're talking about feel compelled to make up "facts"?
The status quo is almost certainly the worst possible case. It is relatively easy for a madman to get his hands on a gun, because the gun-free zone regulations are relatively easy to evade when there is an ample supply of guns across the country. On the other hand, his victims are unlikely to be armed because, being law abiding citizens, they won't attempt to evade even a lightly-enforced regulation.
Option no. 1 over the status quo is if everyone had a gun. Assuming that the right-minded outnumber the madmen in significant proportions, we'd all be made safer.
The problem is that option no. 1 can reasonably (though debatably) be regarded as a second-best solution. Gun-control advocates would prefer if no one had a gun; and regard this as a first-best solution. Option no. 2 would thus be to ban guns completely, and ensure sufficient nationwide enforcement that makes obtaining a gun very difficult even for determined madmen.
It takes no great insight to realize that the two options are incompatible. The more we go towards option no. 1 (making guns easier for people to get and increasing the existing inventory of them), the more we make option no. 2 impossible to implement.
Professor Volokh's solution is not different from option no. 1. It is still increasing the general availability of guns in the economy, and it will make it easier for the madman to get a gun (whether it is because some professors will be madmen, the madman will steal or buy the gun from a professor, etc.). It might very well be that in modern America option no. 2 is impossible, now or in any reasonably forseeable future, and thus we should try and implement option no. 1 with zest. But the first-best, second-best trade-off is the core dilemma in the gun-control debate.
I say this as someone who doesn't like the thought of firearms in any urban or semi-urban setting because of the likelihood in that environment of unintended consequences from the discharge of weapons.
Good question Andy. Actually, they can smell a bit of cleaning solution when you first clean them off. But no, they are none of these things. I've never had a sidearm stain or ruin clothing.
Gordo:
These are the same arguments that people have used to oppose shall-issue licensing for a decade, and in no case have they ever been shown to be true. Your arguments can be used (ineffectively, I think) to argue against anyone carrying a gun, but it's a poor argument for why they ought to be restricted from college campuses in particular.
You might find this link interesting. http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/murder1.html
Does that mean you don't support police having firearms either?
As someone else pointed out, the "ballistic fingerprint" doesn't actually work like a fingerprint. It changes with use. Heck - it changes with vigorous cleaning. And, they can be changed by replacing relevant parts. (With most semi-auto pistols, the barrel is removed as part of basic cleaning. A different barrel can be subsituted when the gun is reassembled.)
Ballistic fingerprints are useful for helping answer one question "did gun X, recovered soon after a given bullet was fired and recovered in very good shape, fire said bullet."
Stored "ballistic fingerprints" are useless because they've changed by the time you want to match them. Unless, of course, you have a plan for compelling a new fingerprint right before someone commits a crime.
And no, "fingerprinting" ejectors, firing pins, etc isn't any better.
FWIW - Recovering real fingerprints from ejected shell casings is occasionally useful. Since the relevant folk can't legally own, the relevant database can exclude people who can't legally own but should include everyone else. Any objections to fingerprinting them?
Fair enough: I'll 'fess up to full snarky. But that pales in comparison to the vile and completely false statements about public schools and public school teachers routinely made by the right wing and on this blog (one commenter attributed at least a chunk of the VT tragedy to what the "NEA" had done to our youth). So, to be vaguely on-topic, I sometimes wonder about folks who hate teachers so much, yet want to see them armed.
The experience of CC tells us, again and again, that the fears you primarily cite - "even mighty professors and well-trained staff could let passions overtake their judgment and use the gun they are carrying inappropriately" - simply do not happen.
Or do you ignore experience as a reference for judgement?
Randy R:
You've provided outstanding evidence of your first sentence: "I'm not too familiar with guns . . ."
A competent and properly maintained handgun, especially one designed for concealed carry, is neither "heavy, a bit smelly, [nor] perhaps even a bit greasy."
Stick to something you know.
But as many other people have pointed out over the last few days there have been several cases where they do mix. Such as Appalachian School of Law where two students with guns disarmed another campus shooter.
Plus many, if not most, universities have armed police officers and no one thinks twice about it. So there is obviously a place for guns being allowed on campus, the debate is to what extent and who gets to legally have them. I have no problem with university staff being armed if they get the proper training, do a background check, etc. I think students should be allowed to be armed in some cases as well, although the line for when is a bit fuzzier. It seems logical to allow students who are also police officers or in the military to carry weapons at the very least.
The building where I work has a clear no weapons policy sign on the front door and staff are informed their first day on the job that weapons are not allowed in the building even if you have a concealed weapons permit. The sign and policy did not stop someone from holding a person hostage with a gun a few years ago. The police did show up and eventually rescued the hostage.
Your first (snarky?) comment rang some vague bell in my faulty memory. I was initially bothered by your claiming that "Bush administration officials" had referred to the NEA as "terrorists" or "worse than terrorists," but then I seemed to remember a short-lived controversy about someone making some such comparison, whether real or "as a joke" or "out of context" or whatever. Was there an actual incident to which you were referring? Or just a general climate?
Thanks
Dave Matthews
You have one advocate of same. More important, given the history of CC in this country, can anyone justify rationally why same person should NOT be permitted to do so?
Ward Churchill with a Glock
Why are you all so disinterested in the actual results in the 38 states that grant permits? The possible problems you raise just don't seem to occur with any where near the frequency you seem to fear. Some of the possible horrors many of you mention are almost unheard of in actual experience.
To he who wants a gun registry, can you explain just exactly what possible law enforcement value or crime prevention value that would have? What good thing would be accomplished and how?
And to he who says "guns and universities just don't mix. Period." I say that is an assertion on your part, and just because you say it doesn't make it so. How do you know this?
Why? Because guns kill people? Then why not:
Schools and drugs/alcohol/cigarettes/stress/spam do not mix. Period.
All have benefits and lethal dangers.
Seems to me that the opposition to guns is universally based on a notion that "I don't trust those other professors/students to have a gun." That's an awful elitist and snobbish position to take. See, for example, tarheel's:
The open disdain and condescension towards your professors and alcohol imbibing classmates... I heard that in a rambling manifesto video yesterday. By some asian dude. Can't quite put my finger on it...
You are imagining things. Here are the real statistics:
Hilarious.
It's sad someone actually believes this though.
I have two family members that have concealed carry permits who were proficient and responsible before getting their permits. The process of getting the permits improved their knowledge and skills. I'd far rather trust my fate to them or to a trained and armed professor than to blind luck.
You are being ridiculous, sir. If Ward Churchill wanted to bring a Glock to his campus and shoot someone, do you think he would first seek a permit?
Hopefully you're joking.
Or, you can't read too well.
In either event, the argument (and fact) is that those who have CCW's aren't on the same par as the "awful humanity" you allude to as the "awful humanity" doesn't take the time or interest in applying for the permits.
Simply put, you silly leftists say "guns" as if all gun owners are inherently bad and/or the same.
Not the case. But since the fact and law aren't on your side all you can do is simply pound the table.
Remember, you're for "civil liberties" except, well, when you're not.
This is a bit of a strawman. No one thinks that lots of students are going to start shooting up the place at the drop of a hat. The real argument goes like this:
1. It happens on occasion that an otherwise decent, law-abiding gun owner shoots an innocent person because he lost his temper, got drunk, or did something just plain stupid. Not often, but it happens enough to cause hundreds or thousands of extra deaths and injuries per year throughout the country.
2. College students are far more likely to lose their temper, be drunk, or do things that are just plain stupid than the average adult.
3. Therefore, having legions of armed college students will increase the number of both accidental and intentional shootings. It may be a very tiny fraction per student, but when multiplied by millions of students, this could cause hundreds of additional deaths per year. All for the purpose of hoping to mitigate an extremely rare event where at most a few dozen are killed.
It's true as far as I know that people with concealed-carry permits do not pose any extra risk. That's probably because the people who apply for and receive such permits are a self-selecting group who are avid gun owners, usually involved in law enforcement, and are far more safety conscious than the average citizen. Trying to make CC permits easier to obtain, or just ubiquitously arming everyone as these arguments usually imply, is going to change that. You can't assume that everyone who is given a gun and isn't a crazed murderer is responsible and safety conscious.
College students are adults.
I don't know about CC licensees, but there are about 1200 road-range incidents per year that escalate into gun fire. People do shoot each other over fender-benders.
This is true, so what good reason is there for restricting concealed carry license holders from carrying on a college campus?
You must have missed the word "average".
Huh?
How is this a "risk" exactly?
You do realize that when someone asks to see or handle it you have the responsibility to say "no," correct?
These comments are very revealing.
Simply put: liberals want a national firearms policy created by people who do not, and do not want to, own guns.
Insane.
You must have missed the word "average".
Not really.
I did enjoy this though:
This is a bit of a strawman
From the author of:
Therefore, having legions of armed college students
Seriously, funny stuff man.
You can't name a single commenter who has said this anywhere in the last 2 days.
I don't think there is. If all such pro-gun arguments were limited strictly to allowing CC permit holders to carry on a campus, then I wouldn't have a problem. Not that I think it will do any good, but I don't see any harm either.
It's the idea that we need to start expanding the armed portion of our citizenry beyond self-selected CC holders and onto everyday professors and college students that I think is nuts.
To answer GMC70, I would gladly take the 1 in a million odds that a nutbag is going to rampage through my school against the demonstrably better odds that a poorly trained/crazy/careless/whatever person with a CC permit shoots someone by accident.
Of course, to understand what bearing this has, if any, on CHL holders on campus, one would have to know what percentage of the 21yo, male Texans who committed crimes at 7.7 times the CHL holders' rate were enrolled in college.
Who is arguing this and where is it being argued?
Just curious as it's pretty clear you're just erecting strawman points now.
Yes, really. You clearly didn't understand the difference between being an adult and being an "average adult", otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to point out that college students are adults, when I clearly stated that they're different from the "average adult".
And that's all the time I'll waste.
Any population, no matter how you screen them, are going to commit some crimes. Police officers also commit crimes, yet nearly everyone agrees it's fine for them to be armed. In fact, if I recall, the arrest rate for police officers is higher than for CHL holders.
This seems purposefully naive. I'm certain you don't think that the reason states do not have gun control legislation is because they have found that it's safe to carry guns on streets. Surely it's right that some states and some people think it's safe, but the influence of the gun lobby is certainly at least as big a factor.
Actually, what you, captain strawman, can't understand is that trying to draw lines between adults is a silly excercise used by people like you to make absurd political points.
And that's all the time I'll waste
Good. Your comments are getting sillier and more irrelevant as you go.
Haven't England, Australia, Germany, etc., already changed their culture to "stop seeing guns as the answer to the problem"
And you didn't answer GMC70's first question, which posed the hypothetical of being in THAT room. Not the room you will be in tomorrow. Not the typical or statistically expected room.
So how is making everyone defenseless going to accomplish anything? This isn't really about guns themselves, but about the fact that everyone has the basic right of self-preservation, which entails, in our constitutional system at least, the right to have access to the tools to help secure that end. If we get rid of the guns (an impossible task, when you think about it), will these types of violent individuals just disappear?
Are you being serious or parody?
I'm asking this seriously because you can't be this misinformed.
Do you have the foggiest idea about which areas of the country have the higest per capita crime rates?
(Hint: cities with handgun bans)
This seems purposefully naive
Talk about projection.
There's no good reason not to allow faculty, staff, and students, who are otherwise qualified in the state, to carry (concealed or not, as the state might require) on campus. There are many bad reasons to forbid it.
Cesare Beccaria's eloquent statement (below) seems to outline the entire argument.
False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary ones, which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty--so dear to men, so dear to the enlightened legislator--and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the guilty alone ought to suffer? Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. They ought to be designated as laws not preventive but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree.
He appears on the cover of one of his books with an AK47, a much more potent weapon than a Glock pistol.
runape,
Yeah, that gun lobby is the reason we have that pesky federal 2nd amendment, and numerous stronger amendments in most states. Not the people. And anyone who voted for those gun rights must have been mindless right wing zombies who didn't know any better than to listen to their NRA overlords, right?
Bangor, Maine has concealed carry
2005 Murders: 0
Hey, leave some of us liberals out of it. I have lived in and had carry-permits in Florida, Massachusetts, and Oregon. I suspect you'll find Oregon "liberals" to be a might different that say Massachusetts liberals. Some liberals may have desired this, and itsa nogoodnik. Bloomberg and Guiliani are right there too. Oregon Democrats (a fairly liberal bunch) have passed a resolution in the Democratic Party of Oregon specfically recognizing second amendment rights and working for them.
The free country option should extend to those who take responsibility for their own defense.
The arguments presented here for not allowing people to carry guns have been appallingly ignorant.
by State by City, 2005
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 195
That is with a total handgun ban.
Chicago
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 448
That is with a total handgun ban.
Detroit
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 354
That is with a total handgun ban.
The same reason we register cars and require drivers to be licensed. We require drivers to pass a test and obey traffic laws. We retest them when they get old and their ability to drive needs to be re-evaluated.
Why (other than an irrational fear that the registered guns will be taken away) would anyone oppose treating guns like we treat automobiles?
Ok,
liberalschanges to "too many vocal liberal activists"Heh, thanks.
Uh, maybe because there isn't an amendment in the Constitution saying your right to drive shall not be infringed?
Which of course is why your side of the aisle is busy changing the meaning of the 2nd Amendment to not really mean what it says.
Also, history has demonstrated conclusively on numerous occasions that the fear of guns being taken away is in no way "irrational."
Look at these statistics, and rage (or weep):
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm#murd
These statistics may be deceptive or misleading. But compared to your ludicrous statistical survey, they are a paragon of statistical virtue.
You, on the other hand, appear to believe that the government can't prevent felons with a history of violent crime form obtaining a weapon, or can't prevent a U.S. citizen from buying a nuclear weapon on the open market.
Barf me out!
Huh?
My stats are coming from the FBI
There is no need to look at any other statistics on this matter which of course is why you're directing me to them. From 2000 no less.
I carried a weapon when I was in the military as did my husband, and when we completed our terms of service and went to college (in our early 20s) this did not make us any less responsible gun owners than we were before. Our children learned to shoot as soon as they were large and strong enough to hold a .22 with no ill effects, and are now responsible CW permit carrying adults.
Everybody else is, of course, free to make the decision to leave their personal safety in the hands of whichever authority figure they prefer whether it be the local police force or God almighty but speaking from the perspective of former law enforcement, I know how little can be done by police until a crime is committed. I prefer to take responsibility for my own safety.
Note the lack of substance here.
You, on the other hand, appear to believe that the government can't prevent felons with a history of violent crime form obtaining a weapon, or can't prevent a U.S. citizen from buying a nuclear weapon on the open market.
As I said earlier:
There are facts
There is the law
There is table pounding.
You are pounding the table.
Gee, I wonder why?
Let's not get to crazy here. Gordo, no-one has promoted felons with guns or nuclear weapons here. Don't exaggerate so much, or try to put words in peoples' mouths.
Uh, where did I say that?
See, not so bright liberal, I pointed out that comparing owning a gun to driving is silly and why because of the constitution.
Your response was to attribute statements I never made to me, then attack strawmen.
Now why do you think that is?
Now, you have a "super citizen," one who has all the training of a security guard or police officer, and who we are able to trust more than the average Concealed carry citizen.
See, when you give someone government authority is allays the fears of the "omg he's going to accidentally fire his gun and kill everyone" crowd. Everyone walks away happy.
California has some of the strictest firearm laws of the United States
Los Angeles had 489 murders in 2005.
By the way, I misspoke, Detroit does not have a handgun ban (yet) San Francisco does.
Michigan's gun laws are tougher than Virginia's
Detroit doesn't have a handgun ban, and Michigan is a shall-issue state when it comes to carry licenses. Michigan does regulate handguns more strictly than other states (police must inspect and register them), but they aren't illegal.
Still, you can see how effective handgun registration is at preventing crime.
Another thing - Most states require a person to be 21 to get a permit. Most students aren't 21.
yes, I noted the error above. Detroit does not have a handgun ban. Check out that link on the Michigan gun laws.
The reason that cars are registered for is for TAX purposes. The reason drivers are tested and registered is so they can drive on the PUBLIC roads; you do not need a license to drive on your own property. The closest analogy to testing and registering gun owners like drivers is for...carrying weapons in public, as opposed to private, places.
Incidentally, a driver's license is issued by a state, but is recognised to allow driving on public roads in all jurisdictions nationwide. Yes, let's treat gun ownership more like car ownership...
Well, the problem with that proposal is because you want to know, the shooter will know too. The point of concealment, other than to be polite, is so that it's not known that you're armed. Police officers have to be trained in retention techniques, and wear holsters with retention systems. Civilians typically don't get this training, because by keeping the weapon concealed, there's no chance someone is going to grab it, because they won't know it's there until it's drawn on them.
I don't have a problem with allowing open carry, but it defeats one of the big tactical advantages to keeping concealed.
Doesn't LA have some very strict gun laws?
1: Allow any employees and teachers at any learning institution to be armed IF they have a CW permit (i.e. have extra training than a mere gun-buyer)
2: Put one or more 1-lb or 0.5-lb balls under every chair in every classroom, K-PhD. (This is cheap, minimally lethal, and essentially immune from one-person-goes-crazy-rampaging)
3: Put pepper-spray in every teacher's lecturn and desk in a break-open-in-emergency-compartment
4: Put door-securing devices on classroom doors. Not just deadbolts but some more secure method. The cheapest way I can think of is a rotating bar, hinged on the door-hinge-side and latching into a up-pointing-C-bracket on the doorframe on the handle-side. At the least, make sure classrooms have something like the door-blocker that you wedge at an angle from the floor to under the door-handle.
(to prevent misuse, make it so the bar-the-door device needs the classroomkey to activate/unlock-for-use)
In the event of any armed-shooter rampage, every student will have something small and high-density to throw at the assailant. Half or more may miss, but a barrage of this type will have a non-zero chance of disabling the shooter and a strong possibility to allowing one or more sheepdog students to charge the shooter.
Even an anti-violence student will be likely to join in the thrown-projectile barrage, and if you've got even one athletic-type in class, there's a good chance of rendering the assailant unconscious.
In the event that the shooter picks an unarmed classroom for his first target (high probability, 95% of professors are likely to be unarmed), the students and teacher will not be as helpless as at VT. After the first shots are heard, every classroom will be extremely difficult for an assailant to enter.
I appreciate the temperate response. Here's a piece of the article from a CNN webpage about what the Bush admin. official said. (Google "NEA and Terrorist" if you want to double check; inserting links never works for me, for some reason).
Education Secretary Rod Paige called the National Education Association a "terrorist organization" Monday as he argued that the country's largest teachers union often acts at odds with the wishes of rank-and-file teachers regarding school standards and accountability.
Paige later issued a written release saying that statement, made during a conversation with governors, "was an inappropriate choice of words" but reiterated his criticism of the NEA and its Washington lobbyists.
An administration official said the secretary was "clearly joking" but he should not have used the "terrorist" label in taking issue with the NEA — which is not only the largest teachers union but also a major player in Democratic Party politics.
So, was that a joke or not? You tell me.
Also, here's a blog piece about a couple of prominent conservative talking heads essentially calling teachers unions worse than Al Qaida.
Appearing on Fox News’s high-brow “Hannity &Colmes” show, radio host Neal Boortz and Sean Hannity were exploring the problems in the nation’s education system when Boortz lasered in on what he says is the real enemy of education—teachers unions. In fact, he says, teachers unions “are much more dangerous than al Qaeda!”
Look, al Qaeda, they could bring in a nuke into this country and kill 100,000 people with a well-placed nuke somewhere. OK. We would recover from that. It would be a terrible tragedy, but the teachers unions in this country can destroy a generation….They are much more dangerous. We worry about al Qaeda, and we should. But at the same time, let’s not let the teachers unions escape.
So, were they joking, or not?
Anyway, thanks again.
*Most Americans do not own a gun.
*Most Americans reaction to this shooting is emotional: fear.
*Most Americans will learn that the shooter was mentally ill, and was able to purchase his very lethal gun very easily, and that he used, or at least had, hollow-point bullets.
*And then these same fearful Americans will see gun-rights advocates like Professor Volokh on the internet, and perhaps TV, arguing that *more* people should be packing.
This sounds like a political problem for the NRA to me.
I do agree with folks here that we ought not to take drastic measures in regards to security at colleges and universities in response to what, by anyone's definition, a rare event.
I advocate allowing concealed weapons license holders to carry onto campuses not because I believe it would have definitely prevented this tragedy, but because I don't think there's a compelling reason to do so. To me the chance of someone being armed at the scene of a mass shooting is better than no chance of someone being armed.
Perhaps Gordo will tell us what conditions would justify a rational fear that registered guns will be taken away? After all, we do have US Senators on record advocating just that.
As to "treating guns like we treat automobiles", that would be a significant reduction in current US gun law. However, you'd have to actually know US gun and automobile law to understand that point. It's much easier to confuse snark with a cogent argument.
Anyone can own a car in the US; not so with guns. There are basically no restrictions on what cars can be owned (nope, not even registration); not so with guns. There are some almost meaningless restrictions on who can drive on public roads; there are significantly more restrictions on public carry. There are some restrictions on what cars can be driven on public roads; let's call this a tie.
Moreover, no one expects any of the car laws to have any effect on intentional car mis-use. No one thinks that they'll stop someone from using a car as a get-away vehicle or as a means of mowing down people on a sidewalk.
In short, pro-gun folk would be happy if the legal system and society treated guns the way they treat cars.
It depends on what group you're talking about.
Folks who wanted to partake got what they wanted. Folks who didn't were off-limits and very safe.
That's interesting, considering the folks opposing gun control seem to have the upper hand in the political debate these days, to such a degree that even the known anti-gun democrats are keeping their mouths shut on the issue.
Most Americans will learn that the shooter was mentally ill, and was able to purchase his very lethal gun very easily, and that he used, or at least had, hollow-point bullets.
You betray your lack of knowledge on the subject you're pontificating over. A Glock 19 is not particularly deadly in relation to other firearms on the market. I own and carry one. In fact, the 9mm cartridge is being considered for replacement by the military for being too underpowered. The other pistol he carried was a Walther P22, which fires and even less powerful .22LR cartridge, and is a common target gun. The .22LR cartridge is so weak, it's only real use is for target shooting, or maybe dispatching an angry charging squirrel.
No problem. I agree with what you say about talking heads, but it's still outrageious. Imagine the response here if a Clinton official, or even say Bill Maher or Keith Obermann, had called the NRA a "terrorist" organization.
Fair enough: I'll 'fess up to full snarky. But that pales in comparison to the vile and completely false statements about public schools and public school teachers routinely made by the right wing and on this blog (one commenter attributed at least a chunk of the VT tragedy to what the "NEA" had done to our youth). So, to be vaguely on-topic, I sometimes wonder about folks who hate teachers so much, yet want to see them armed.
Hmm. Are you sure you aren't confusing the right-wingers here with Woody Allen in Sleeper?
That's worth pondering. Did any single person in the Old West, however that is defined, ever gun down 32 or more people at once? I doubt it. I think you need to be in a "gun free zone" before you can accomplish that feat.
Perhaps the college ROTC program could provide training and strict and excessive requirements for certification, along with approval of the individual weapons. That way you can avoid relying on a possibly lax state system and keep the guns involved to less-abusable things like revolvers.
Of course, you'd need a college ROTC program or the like....
Well, the Democratic leadership in Congress, and specifically Charlie Rangel don't agree with you.
Why?
It's wishful thinking.
Also, I love the continued strawman the "the NRA" drives national gun policy.
I'd love to hear the reasons why academics are so inferior.
[I am only on this site to look into a legal-writing formatting matter, and I don't have time to read everyone else's comments (so I apologize if I'm saying something anyone else has already said).]
Unfortunately, many gun control advocates, including politicians, explicitly state that they want to take all guns away from everyone and that gun registration is the first step in that process.
Therefore, in this political climate, I oppose gun registration.
Unfortunately, schools are not the only "gun free zones". Many companies have policies forbidding anyone from carrying a gun in the office, even licensed carriers. I would love to see laws that stated that a concealed carry license permitted one to carry anywhere that one is legally allowed to be barring hazardous areas like chemical factories (where any discharge of a firearm could prove catastrophic).
EI
link
This is despite the vast increase in right to carry laws all across the nation during exactly the same period. So where is all this sense of panic at the thought that just because a gun is present in the hands of a capable adult your danger is increased? Where are the statistics to back it up? Lets admit it- this is a visceral reaction by people completely unfamiliar and intimidated by firearms. In other words, hysteria. Statistics have shown that lawful adults carrying guns in public do NOT shoot each other more often, do NOT have more accidents. The only argument against it stems from a luddite fear of the unknown.
I thought about having that policy here, but I think I'd trust an Israeli teacher a lot more than one of ours. Theirs actually know how to use them; many of ours believe that guns are icky nasty things.
thanks for that link. Great info.
My understanding (but I admittedly don't have a citation for this) is that murder rates in the 'Wild West' were quite high for drunken young men.
On the other hand, 'non-combatants' (i.e. women, children, married men, old people, etc.) were *MUCH* safer in the 'Wild West' than they are in a modern American inner city.
Washington is not considered a dangerous state, nor is Seattle considered a dangerous city. Just don't start anything.
Nuclear reactors (I used to walk by Cornell's research reactor every day on my way to class), high-energy physics research facilities, biological research facilities, chemistry labs, machine shops, and more. Is anyone still deluded enough to imagine that a rogue science or engineering professor could not cause mass carnage if he or she wished to do so?
Compared to that, entrusting faculty to carry their licensed legal firearms is trivial.
Who thinks it is better to accept an attack rather than fight back?
Mark Buehner,
You are exactly right. I speak from personal experience, having been raised in a home with no guns and a virulently anti-gun mother. My wife had it even worse. It wasn't until I went shooting with my big brother that I woke up. It wasn't until my wife went shooting with me that she woke up. Seeing and holding a gun doesn't cut it. Until someone has actually handled and used a firearm, they are frequently going to be afraid of firearms (like my wife and me) and generally opposed to other people having them. We'll concoct all sorts of arguments to rationalize our fears, no matter what evidence you provide.
I also used to be part of the "I don't trust the stupid common American" crowd, until I realized that even I - the elite of the elite - was still an intellectual dwarf prone to fundamental errors. Having moved beyond that college mindset, I now realize that the common American is our greatest asset, my greatest ally, and the best way to prevent elite snobs like me from ruining the country.
The "people" should be allowed to carry, because the police and government are NOT going to protect them (see, for example, the Koreatown shopkeepers abandoned by the police on 4/30/92). Put simply, the gun control advocates are really afraid of arming Americans because they don't trust the common man. That sort of classist, paternalistic mindset (and in the past, racist) goes against the very heart of America.
1) You're a liar. If you were in that classroom, you'd have wanted a firearm.
2) As to "changing American culture," we're dealing with reality here. You may wish that culture was different, but it isn't. Wishing it were so will not make it so.
It's also clear you begin from a false premise. Deal with the real world, and we can talk. As long as you are dealing in the world as you wish it was rather than the one we have, you're irrelevent.
Given the experience of other nations, and the stated intention of those who would pass "reasonable" gun laws, based upon what do you think such a concern is irrational. That is indeed the goal of the Brady Bunch / Shumer, Feinstein &Co.
That they did not join in and endorse the court's ruling in Parker is clear evidence of same.
So . . . again, what makes you think that concern over a slippery slope toward just that is irrational?
Stop calling me a "liar," and then we can talk. I've avoided ad hominem attacks and would appreciate the same courtesy.
Of course if I lived in your hypothetical world where the choices are live with a gun or die without one, then I would choose the gun. Is that really your view of "the real world." Am I allowed to choose, as I said in my response, to go without a gun and hope this incident doesn't happen in my life? In the real world, the odds are in my favor, despite recent headlines.
I must have that urge at least, let's see class is 2 hours 55 minutes long, at least 175 times per class. The school would be out of tutition paying students if we allowed faculty to be armed.
Isn't it sort of the same thing they were saying about pilots being armed in the cockpit? If you can not trust the pilot of your jumbo jet with a gun what are you doing on the plane?
You've provided outstanding evidence of your first sentence: "I'm not too familiar with guns . . ."
A competent and properly maintained handgun, especially one designed for concealed carry, is neither "heavy, a bit smelly, [nor] perhaps even a bit greasy."
Stick to something you know."
Well, geez, please forgive me for trying to have an intelligent debate! I specifically stated that I am not familiar with guns, and said my *impressions* was that they are heavy, smelly, and sometimes a bit greasy. I am perfectly willing to hear someone state that I am wrong and correct my impression. I have held guns, and found them rather heavy. Perhaps there are light ones out there, but to strap one on your hip while standing all day seems like an strange burden to at least some people.
As for the smelly and greasy, you yourself state that a well maintained gun will be neither. On what assumption do you make that everyone will have a well maintained gun?
The original question was whether arming profs would be a good thing, and I'm merely saying that human nature that it is, at least *some* profs will keep their gun in a desk or in a jacket on a rack, and at least in *some* situations, that won't help them. It might if there is enough warning to hear a gunman coming down the hall, but it might not be enough if a student just decides to open fire in a classroom without warning, or *begins* his rampage there.
Anotheer issue: If a prof has a gun in a classroom, and somehow it goes off (perhaps while moving it or whatever) and injures someone, who is liable, the school or the prof, or both?
What if it wasn't the assailant but some armed bystander or another professor that was rushing in to help? You just killed an innocent civilian. The very fact that you are suggesting that someone shoot someone else "immediately" before determining who they are is one reason why we should keep the laws as they are.
You continue to deny the bloody obvious. When a gunman is audibly shooting people just outside a classroom, it is unlikely that the first person waving a gun around to enter the classroom a few seconds later is NOT the gunman.
Sure, he might be Santa Claus instead. And you, or I, might be Queen of the May.
Might, if, etc. Those are denial games by someone who cannot be convinced by reason.
And yet there is an equal amount of fear in comments of the other side. Fear of being attacked during the night, fear of having your house broken into, fear of another mass killing. And both sides are equally quick to call the other sides fear irrational. Not one person has put forward any actual data yet.
Accidents involving guns DO happen. That is not a debatable point. There WILL be future mass shootings. That is not a debatable point. The real question is would the amount of death/injuries caused by accidents be greater than or less than the amount of deaths/injuries caused by future mass killings?
Umm...700 is greater than 33
There are more accidental deaths as a result of guns than there are lives that potentially could have been saved at VT. And that doesn't even include injuries.
First, how do I continue to deny anything? That was my first post on this board, and to my knowledge we haven't sparred on other boards.
- you have a very poor lack of imagination and grasp of reality. What if it was an armed civilian seeking cover in the doorway? Or making sure there wasn't a second shooter before evacuating other people? These incidents last longer than 30 seconds. The killer in this case went from room to room and attempted to go back to the first.
- my mistake. you do have a good imagination. you're just not that intelligent.
- really? you are advocating arming professors for the situation where they might be able to shoot the shooter if they are able and if this event happens at their school if police can't arrive fast enough if etc....
I am a recovering redneck. I was raised around guns( I was also raised around cars, livestock, powertools,cars, boats, various poisons and other things that are dangerous when misused). I dont put guns in a special catagory of "bad things". I learned about gun safety at an early age, along with poison safety(who has bleach in their house? Drano?). I don't understand the pedistal that both sides of the issue erect for guns. I f I did not teach my children to behave safely in traffic or in dealing with poisons I would be an unfit parent. But if I keep my children ignorent of firearms I am placing them in just as much danger.
Here is a hard cold fact: ANY chemistry Prof or student has more lethal potential than a maniac with a machine gun. Demystify guns. Teach EVERYBODY about them. Knowledge is power.
Yes I do have a CCW(going on 17 years). I assume everybody I meet is also armed.
I have used my ccw once. It has my picture on it and It heped me cash a check.
Professors and students are just people, and thats OK. I guess my main question is: When did the american way become "Hire a profesional?" You are responsable for your own safety.
That is really what this whole debate is about. Who is responsible for your safety, you or the government? The left says that government, and only the government is. Since they don't believe that people are responsible, it is the gun that causes the crime, not the user. Get rid of guns and you will get rid of crime. If you point out, as several people here have, that cities that ban guns have higher crime rates than cities that don't, the left just change the subject since it doesn't fit their world view.
Umm, VaTech isnt the only crime scene in America unless i'm mistaken. And of those 700 deaths, it is ridiculous to assume a gun ban would reduce the number to zero. Police and the military have gun accidents. Criminals certainly have gun accidents. The point is YES, there are fatal gun accidents, but NO they are not common and apprently NO concealed carry laws do not increase their occurance. Accidental gun deaths are decreasing while citizens carrying weapons in public is increasing. You have no statistical argument that right to carry laws will increase the number of fatal accidents.
Btw you can always tell the people on these threads who are unfamiliar with firearms because they inevitably say something along the lines of 'what happens if the gun "goes off"'. Folks, its not a stick of homemade dynamite. A gun goes off when you load it, chamber a round, turn the safety off, and pull the trigger. Nobody worries about what would happen if their car suddenly veered into oncoming traffic. Cars dont do that- drivers do. Guns dont 'go off', someone pulls a trigger.
Here is why.
When CCW is allowed, rates of crime go down.
Campuses that prohibit CCW will have a likelier higher rate of crimes including crimes that require insurance and other costs.
Thus they have higher absolute and cost risks due to policies they have chosen to implement.
I would love to see gun safety taught in high schools by police or other trained professionals. Actual shooting classes should probably be optional, but every kid should see a gun and learn how it works and how to handle it safely. Every adult should know how to unload a gun at the very least. A friend if mine's mom had a pistol she thought was unloaded. It turned out that it was loaded AND had a round chambered. We unloaded it for her and suggested she get her husband to take her to the range before she kept it loaded...
Guns are most dangerous in the hands of the ignorant.
EI
There the toll was five (or six, if you include the shooter) dead, not 32.
The availability of more hiding places and exits, and likely a less dense "target" population, likely contributed to the lower death toll. So too the difference in weapons and their magazines' capacities.
But, an off duty police officer (with his service weapon) was in the mall, and, as soon as he heard shots he went out to confront the gunman.
At that point the gunman was no longer on the offensive--and the death toll after that point was one--the gunman himself.
When the shooter begins to worry about getting shot, he won't be able to methodically walk up and down the rows of desks shooting people.
For what it's worth, I'll point out that the 1992 shooting at Concordia University in Montreal, Quebec was committed by Valery Fabrikant who was an associate professor at the time. If I remember correctly, he was a licensed gun owner and used legally purchased guns."
This is incorrect on a number of points:
1] Canada has extremely rigorous CC laws. There is essentially no CC in Canada, so Fabrikant wouldn't have been legally carrying.
2] Fabrikant's gun was legally purchased by his wife, since his colleagues apparently thought him unstable. At the time, purchase required an FAC (firearms aquisition certificate) and apparently he couldn't come up with enough people to vouch for him.
I considered taking a Master's with one of the victims.
c. l. ball, no he didn't 'anticipate' prof's being armed. Use your brain. In a classroom, where are the students? where is the professor? where is the door?
THINK: Cho enters a room with an intent to murder people. The professor is just six feet away and standing, the students are twenty feet away and seated in rows. Who is going to be the first one shot?
Several people have already posted that the likelihood of concealed handgun licensees committing any crime serious enough to lose their license is extremely low, much lower than the general public.
But, you argue, I will never carry a gun and why should I pay any risk cost whatsoever since I will never have a gun with me when someone attempts to rob or assault me while walking home late at night?
You actually do benefit as a free rider from the "Lo-Jack" effect. When the Lo-Jack system was first introduced, it was not available in every city. A statistical phenomenon was noticed that the rate of car theft would drop in a city whenever Lo-Jack became available there. To some extent, that is because most crimes are committed by a fairly small number of people so that when you put one of them in prison they have no opportunity to commit their normal quota of crimes. The unexpected larger degree of drop in car thefts was because nobody could tell which car contained a Lo-Jack device. That made stealing any car more risky than it had been. Some criminals were willing to assume that additional risk but many were not.
The same holds for concealed carry. Only about 5% of the population gets a concealed carry license. Only about 1% of the population carries on a regular basis. That is enough to serve as a deterrent to crimes that involve confrontation. It also means that a random group of 100 people will probably have one licensed individual carrying his gun.
The pertinent acidents would be the ones caused by people carrying a concealed gun in public. Does anyone know how many of these have happened? Can anyone relate any problem caused by an licensed person carrying a concealed gun in public? In any of the 38 states with concealed carry laws?
We hear much about what will happen if concealed carry is allowed, but then we never hear about anything that actually happened. If the hypothesis says problems will occur, and experience shows they don't, can we safely say the hypothesis is wrong?
Revenue enhancement, particularly in the first case.
CCW permits generally are issued for a limited period, re-application requires retesting, etc. Sounds like you're covered.
Other than the plain fact that historically, gun confiscations worldwide have been preceded by general registration systems?
Treat them like we do automobiles? That would require tossing out a lot of existing gun control laws. Cars are generally treated more lightly than firearms, in spite of the fact that they are associated with far more death and injury by accident than are civilian-owned firearms in this country on purpose.
(Why limit this to "gun violence"? Is someone killed by knife or bludgeon not actually dead?)
Judging from data going back to at least the early 1870s, violent crime rates from that period in the "wild" west tended to be lower than in the "civilized" eastern states. And given the relative populations, the gap between the two in raw numbers was even greater.
With fairly rare exceptions, such as mining camps with access to lots of cheap alcohol and unmarried young men using it, the west was more peaceful than the east.
Most of what you learned on TV and in the movies is wrong, if for no other reason than that ranching and farming is hard, mostly boring work.
If, Joseph? Happens all the time.
The first has been shown repeatedly to be true. The other statement, if it's true currently, only means that nobody with enough cash has made a serious effort to buy one.
Wait, you must be one of those who think that Prohibition worked.
It seems to have escaped your notice that there are more people in the U.S. than there are students and faculty at VT.
Really, you can do better than this.
Yes we can safely say that*. But I haven't seen numbers one way or the other. I don't think either side of the debate is particularly interested in doing the studies for fear of the risk that the numbers will disprove their theories.
*This only holds true for people who having a rational debate. Some gun control advocates and some gun rights advocates can care less what the numbers show and are making purely ideological arguments. Either that or they are massively distorting existing numbers to prove whatever they want. I don't think these people can be swayed by any data.
As to Guns in the school: We have already found what does Not work. Armed guards? Columbine had an armed guard--and he ran off. Metal detectors? The U.S. Capitol had a detector and an armed guard--the shooter made it past both--killing a guard. The police? they are always good at carrying away the bodies. Fact is, a school shooting has only been stopped with a gun.
The military has a term for "gun-free zones" such as schools--Target Rich Environments. There is a fear that allowing citizens the means to protect themselves--and others--presents a danger to the community. There is, however, little evidence to support this. And I am specifically talking about Licensed, CCW-holders, so please just stick with that. You, Prof and others are afraid of your fellow citizens. However, somone with a gun usually acts much more responsibly when they are armed. I was once surrounded by 4,000 or so soldiers, exactly of college-age, full of testosterone, and no outlet for their raging hormones--and in 6 months there was not one shooting--or for that matter, even an "accidental discharge". No, more guns are not a problem--only who's hands they are in. Possession of a gun does not transform someone into a crazy, irresponsible person.
School shootings will not stop. The only question is, do we care enough about our chidren to do what is necessary to protect them? You say you do not want a gun because the chance of a shooting is remote. Fine, do not be a sheepdog--allow someone else to assume that role.
We have to get over the aversion we have with an inanimate object. "We" are not talking about "giving out" guns or "arming" teachers--we merely advocate allowing responsible adults--who choose-- to be the first line of defense in the classroom.
I know it is hard for "you" to trust your fellow citizen.
from my experience, and as a CCW holder of 2 states, you can trust your fellow citizens. We don't know you, but we are willing to put our life forward in your defense.
I am knowledgeable on this issue and will gladly answer all your e-mails if you have quesions or comments.
I also assume that the reason is projection. They felt that "they" were incapable of maintaining concealment of a firearm, or that "they" would use it in a casual argument with another.
This would be a good argument to keep these people away from firearms.
A second idea is that the administration might be suffering from a cultural bigotry. They do not understand the culture of people who enjoy firearms. They demonize and dehumanize those people whose culture they do not understand. Having those "un-human" gun people armed is intimidating to the administration and professors. They must be disarmed and forced away from our land...