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The 30 Minute Seder:

I blogged this last year, but "The 30 Minute Seder" now comes in a new and improved edition. It's an excellent text, I think, for those who want a short Seder service with all the traditional elements of the Seder, but don't want to go through the whole Haggadah (which is full of tangentially relevant rabbinic debates, yet somehow never manages to actually tell the whole story of the Exodus, as the Torah commands). Note: I don't know the author, and have no financial or other interest in this text.

For the more ambitious, I ran a Seder for the first time last year, and found this book very helpful.

Feel free to post Seder suggestions in the comments below.

UPDATE: Professor Donna Robinson Divine emails: If you want to trigger genuine intellectual excitement, you might use A DIFFERENT NIGHT, a family participation Haggadah put together by Noam Zion and David Dishon from the Hartman Institute in Israel.

On the Rabbinic commentary, there are scholars who claim these are really discussions about whether or not to initiate a revolt against Roman rule. It does have some direct bearing on the idea of liberation.

Respondent (mail):
The only part of the Exodus missing from the Hagaddah, as far as I can remember, is the one incident in which Moses' initial request to Pharoh is not only denied but followed by orders to stop providing the slaves with straw. That said, I can't think of anywhere that the Torah commands that incident be told over at the Seder. In fact, all verses in the Torah that require the telling over of the Exodus are themselves recited at the Seder, so all that the Torah commands be said over is automatically implicitly told without any further elucidation at all.
3.20.2007 9:03pm
Kovarsky (mail):
This year god scheduled seder on opening day for all but two major league teams. Faced with a choice between seder and roy oswalt's nasty 12-6 curve, I can only pray for forgiveness.
3.20.2007 9:20pm
ov:
The rabbinic debates are only "tangentially related" if (1) you have never done more than a superficial reading of the text and (2) you fail to comprehend that the haggadah is structured not as a script but as a tool to inspire your own midrashic-type discussions in which anything value-laden and "tangentially related" to the Exodus is laudatory and holy.

Kovarsky: Add the NCAA men's basketball championship game to the top of that list.
3.20.2007 9:30pm
ov:
That should be "tangentially relevant," of course, which practically means the same thing as "tangentially related."
3.20.2007 9:31pm
Cornellian (mail):
What is a "Seder?"
3.20.2007 10:12pm
Byomtov (mail):
Feel free to post Seder suggestions in the comments below.

I think God will forgive you if you serve decent wine. (He will also forgive Kovarsky, but not ov, since baseball is the only sport designed by Him personally).
3.20.2007 11:15pm
Kovarsky (mail):
opening day is not only a godsend becuase it is the start of the season, but also because it is the one day of the year that houston sports radio doesn't devote most of its airtime to how the texans should have taken vince young.
3.21.2007 12:00am
Kovarsky (mail):
What is a "Seder?"

i don't really want to field this one but, among other things, it commences a week in which jewish people can't eat sandwiches.
3.21.2007 12:02am
Isaac (mail) (www):
Allow me to plug the author Shimon Apisdorf. I haven't read his Passover Survival Kit or his Survival Kit Family Haggadah, but I have read his Rosh Hashanah Yom Kippur Survival Kit, and found it very useful for focusing on important themes of the High Holidays, and as something interesting and worthwhile to read both when I had the stamina to read carefully and when I didn't.

Apisdorf at Leviathan Press

Apisdorf at Amazon
3.21.2007 12:04am
MDJD2B (mail):
My rabbi once pointed out to me that the Haggadah does not mention Moses by name at all. He said it was to emphasize that God, not Moses, was responsible for the Exodus.
3.21.2007 12:14am
JunkYardLawDog (mail):
Cornellian asked what is a Seder?

Among other answers an example of a particularly memorable Seder is known as the "Last Supper" where Yeshua (sp?) and his rabbinical students observed this holy day. A day made even more holy by the parallels with the rabbi Yeshua being the passover lamb whose sacrifice makes possible man's reconciliation with God.

Its also known as the jewish passover celebration commemorating the night the angel of death came and killed all of Egypt's first born (but passed over the houses marked with the blood of sacrificial lambs) leading to the Pharaoh finally letting the Jews make the great exodus out of Egypt.

Says the "Dog"
3.21.2007 1:17am
JunkYardLawDog (mail):
The link for the books says its perfect for the family on the go.

Maybe next year he'll write an updated version of the 30 minute Seder and call it "The Drive Thru Seder", now that would really be for the family on the go.
;-)

Just kidding of course. I may buy the book for myself. I've always wanted to attend a real Seder.

Says the "Dog"
3.21.2007 1:22am
Cornellian (mail):
What is a "Seder?"

i don't really want to field this one but, among other things, it commences a week in which jewish people can't eat sandwiches.


That is one highly detailed religion.
3.21.2007 2:54am
CrazyTrain (mail):
Junkyard Law Dog -- Jesus did not attend a Passover Seder on his last supper. The Seder as we know it was not developed until about 100 ce after the destruction of the Second Temple, and indeed many of its symbols are substitutes/representations for the temple. I.e., the lamb shanks is to remind us of the Pesach lamb sacrifice at the Temple. The "Jesus as Paschal lamb" has no support in the Hebrew Scripture. Please do not attend a "real seder" unless it is run by rela jews. Christians have for years tried to proselytize Jews with their insulting misinterpretations of the Seder symbols -- i.e. Matzah is body of Christ, Lamb is Jesus and Wine is Blood of Jesus. Just leave us alone and stop appropriating our symbols.
3.21.2007 3:57am
CrazyTrain (mail):
MDJDB -- Your Rabbi was right. Indeed, when the great Rabbi Mordechai Kaplan (Orthodox then Conservative then Reconstructionist) created a new Haggaddah in 1945 mentioning Moses for the first time, Orthodox Jews excommunicated him (he had already left the Orthodox rabbinate and was only a Conservative Rabbi at the time), and BURNED his books, including the Haggadot. When asked about this, Kaplan responded that he was happy because in the old days the Orthodox would have burned him too, but now they were only burning his books. Google the story.

David's wrong that the story of the Exodus must be told per the Torah. Pesach was only really connected to the Exodus after the destruction of the Second Temple. Before that, it like Shavuot and Sukkot were one of three harvest holidays were Jews were to go to Jerusalem for Temple sacrifices. After the destruction, all three holidays were reinterpreted to connect to the Exodus Sukkot is to connect to what we lived in during the Exodus, Peasach is what we ate and how we got out, and Shavuot when we got the Torah at Mt Sinai.
3.21.2007 4:01am
CrazyTrain (mail):
By the way, and more particularly, what Jesus attended was a Passover meal, but it was not at all like the Seder as we know it today. Furthermore, this fact shows where the New Testament is all screwed up --- according to it, Jesus was arrested by the Sanhedrin on Pesach, which makes absolutely no sense because it was a Yom Tov and the High Priests and Rabbis would NOT be working at all on a Yom Tov, much less turning in a fellow Jew to the Romans.
3.21.2007 4:03am
JoshL (mail):

I think God will forgive you if you serve decent wine.


Strong recc. for anything from Dalton or Yarden (Dalton Cabs tend to be pretty good), or Hagafen. The Hagafen 2001 Syrah is fantastic and is a pleasure to drink on its own, but is also great with red meats and roasts.


since baseball is the only sport designed by Him personally

Note that it is nevertheless assur (forbidden) to root for the Yankees, unless you have a specific mesorah (tradition). It is, however, highly laudable to root for the Cubs in general and the Red Sox whenever they play the Yankees, unless you have a mesorah for the Yankees.
3.21.2007 9:38am
rarango (mail):
On what other blog is it possible to observe talmudic disputations about Baseball!
3.21.2007 9:44am
Byomtov (mail):
The Hagafen 2001 Syrah is fantastic and is a pleasure to drink on its own, but is also great with red meats and roasts.

How is it with charoset?

Note that it is nevertheless assur (forbidden) to root for the Yankees, unless you have a specific mesorah (tradition). It is, however, highly laudable to root for the Cubs in general and the Red Sox whenever they play the Yankees, unless you have a mesorah for the Yankees.

The Brewers also are definitely not kosher for Pesach.
3.21.2007 10:08am
Stuart M. (mail):
Actually, I think a Yom Tov is the only time it is permissible to have warm feelings about the Yankees (though actually rooting for them is out of the question), as a break from the normal routine. At all other times, rooting for the Yankees makes you hayyav karet (deserving of extirpation).
3.21.2007 10:20am
Craig Oren (mail):
Perhaps the essence of the story comes from the reply to the Four Questions:

"We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt. And the Lord our God brought us out from there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. And if the Holy One, blessed be He, had not brought our ancestors out of Egypt, then we, our children and our children's children, would still be slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt."

That last sentence is particularly moving to me, and it introduces a theme that runs throughout the Seder: it was not just the slaves who were freed, but us as well. To quote loosely a later passage, "Everyone should regard himself as if he or she had been liberated from Egypt."
3.21.2007 11:09am
Nobody (mail):
I'm running my first Seder this year too. I just bought 18 copies of Elie Wiesel's Haggadah, which looks like a very nice book which preserves a lot of the language in the red and yellow haggadahs my wife and I both grew up with. (The Haggadah was on sale at the Strand Bookstore in NYC--also available on their website--for $7 each. I love a good deal.) In a bizarre footnote, the Wiesel haggadah is illustrated by Mark Podwal, a noted Jewish illustrator/artist who is also a NYC dermatologist who treated me when I was an acne-faced teenager.
3.21.2007 11:20am
SP:
"By the way, and more particularly, what Jesus attended was a Passover meal, but it was not at all like the Seder as we know it today. Furthermore, this fact shows where the New Testament is all screwed up --- according to it, Jesus was arrested by the Sanhedrin on Pesach, which makes absolutely no sense because it was a Yom Tov and the High Priests and Rabbis would NOT be working at all on a Yom Tov, much less turning in a fellow Jew to the Romans."

I like how you run through that little speech about Christians appropriating the meal is an insult to Jews, then you retort with this actual insult.
3.21.2007 11:48am
uh clem (mail):
Might I suggest The Two-Minute Haggadah ?

It's a real timesaver, especially if you're doing the seder thing a cople of nights in a row.
3.21.2007 12:00pm
Ken Arromdee:
I like how you run through that little speech about Christians appropriating the meal is an insult to Jews, then you retort with this actual insult.

Saying that another religion's scripture is false (especially historically false) isn't an insult. If you think it is, you've basically ruled out any discussion of other religions at all.
3.21.2007 12:44pm
rarango (mail):
Gentile question follows: there's the 2 minute haggadah, the 30 minute haggadah--but how long does an "ordinary" seder last? (assuming, of course, there is an ordinary seder)
3.21.2007 12:45pm
j613 (mail):
rarango asked "how long does an "ordinary" seder last? (assuming, of course, there is an ordinary seder)"

It depends on how fast you want to drink four cups of wine, eat a full meal, and read a hebrew/english book that raises more questions than any law school text book. In my experince of 80 or so Seders, 3-4 hours is not unusual. It could easily run longer if your guests are Rabbis, lawyers or otherwise like to debate difficult questions....
3.21.2007 1:23pm
MDJD2B (mail):
The Brewers also are definitely not kosher for Pesach.

And the Padres less so!
3.21.2007 1:27pm
rarango (mail):
j613: thank you
3.21.2007 1:30pm
Zarkin:
1. If your familial minchag is to root for the Yankees, it is not only permitted to root for Bombers, but to introduce others to the wonders of the custom. Beit Hillel taught that it matters of holiness, we only increase, and if that applies to the lights of Chanuka, how much more so to the words of my fathers.

2. Another strong vote in favor of the Shalom Hartman Institute's haggadah. In my years as a Hillel professional, nothing was more useful. Check out haggadasrus.com for some excellent pricing.

3. Be careful with anything by R. Apisdorf. He writes from an Aish haTorah perspective, which, while wonderful, may not be for everyone. (I'm all in favor of kiruv to ba'alei teshuva, but I'm still a pluralist.)

4. Has anyone else noticed that the price of matzo meal bears absolutely no relationship to the price of matzo? Being neither an economist nor a sociologist, I cannot explain this, but it has been very striking this year.

5. Chag kasher v'sameach l'kulam.
3.21.2007 2:35pm
Craig Oren (mail):
I used to regularly attend a seder at the home of Orthodox Jews. They could easily make the seder last until 3 a.m. There's a lot to talk about. Some orthodox rabbis rule that food can't be consumed after the absolute middle of the night (generally around 12:30), and that discourages the *very* long seder.
3.21.2007 3:01pm
uh clem (mail):
...how long does an "ordinary" seder last?

How long is an "ordinary" piece of string?
3.21.2007 3:33pm
JunkYardLawDog (mail):
SP:


Quoting CrazyTrain "By the way, and more particularly, what Jesus attended was a Passover meal, but it was not at all like the Seder as we know it today. Furthermore, this fact shows where the New Testament is all screwed up --- according to it, Jesus was arrested by the Sanhedrin on Pesach, which makes absolutely no sense because it was a Yom Tov and the High Priests and Rabbis would NOT be working at all on a Yom Tov, much less turning in a fellow Jew to the Romans."

I like how you run through that little speech about Christians appropriating the meal is an insult to Jews, then you retort with this actual insult.



Not to mention the fact that the New Testament as far as I remember doesn't say the Sanhedrin arrested Jesus. I'm fairly confident it says the ROMANS came and arrested Jesus. So when constructing "historical" comments about the New Testament CrazyTrain and his defender argue against a strawman in this case. But let's not confuse them their minds were made up before they were born. Issiah 53 (I think its 53) comes to mind.

Then there's the whole question of just about any action and effort could be defined/evolved into not "work" or a special exception to the no "work" doctrines by the Sanhedrin if they so desired. That would be a rather minor piece of talmudic type logic and evolution of a living breathing Torah type thinking.

Also found an almost hysterical tone to the wholly irrelevant comments about proselytizing for the conversion of Jews and appropriation of symbols (no their mine and you can't play with them) to be a bit revealing and all too typcial sadly. Is there no person as insecure in the strength and validity of their beliefs than an orthodox jew. I mean a mere passing reference to Yeshua is enough for some to start quaking in their boots and rambling on about proselytizing and misappropriation of symbols, dogs and cats living together, etc.

To offer CrazyTrain a historical note in return for his New Testament analysis: One of the things that is totally screwed up about the rabbinical Judaism practiced today is that it relies on the teachings of men and not Yaweh. That's not an insult just a notation of how things have developed historically, to paraphrase CrazyTrain's defender.

Says the "Dog"
3.21.2007 3:34pm
Mho (mail):
"how long does an 'ordinary' seder last?"

It seemed to last a LOT longer when I was a kid!
3.21.2007 3:36pm
kfh (mail):
Recently, we rented and indie film called "When Do We Eat" which revolves around the seder. The patriarch character boasts he runs the "world's fastest seder" I'd give the film C+.
3.21.2007 3:39pm
Respondent (mail):
Crazytrain,
Unlike Shavuot and Sukkot, every single time the Torah mentions Pesach it connects it to the exodus. The Torah no less than three times explicitly disavows an agricultural basis to Pesach, stating that it must take take place during the month in which the grain ripens because the Exodus happened to occur during that month. (See Exodus 23:15, 34:18, and Deutoronomy 16:1). Likewise the command to tell over the story of the Exodus is also explicitly in the Torah (Exodus 12:27, Deutoronomy 20:24). While the Sukkot holiday is most definitely a festival of gathering grain, and wine (see the same sources), the Torah explicitly declares the reason for the requirement of living in booths is because the Jews lived in them during the Exodus (Leviticus 22:43). Shavuot, however in the absence of a Temple to which to bring the first fruits to celebrate the harvest, was declared by Rabbinic command to be the day to celebrate the giving of the Torah in order to give the day a continuing raison d'etre. So actually, Pesach was most definitely not considered an agricultural festival by the Torah (and there is no evidence that jews during the time of the Temple considered it to be one), Sukkot contains a non-agricultural element that survived the destruction of the temple and didin't nedd to be "reinterpeted", and only Shavuot, which had no non-agricultural element of the holiday to give it a continuing meaning, was given a new reason to celebrate.

Professor Bernstein,
The claims about a discussion whether or not to initiate a revolt against Roman rule refer to the purpose of the Rabbinic assembly in B'nei Braq, not to the general Rabbinic discussion in the Haggadah!
3.21.2007 3:55pm
davidbernstein (mail):
I believe that scholars of such things will tell you that the Passover holiday subsumed two previous, pre-Biblical holidays, "Hag Ha'Matzot" (festival of unleavened bread) and "Hag Ha'aviv (the Spring festival).
3.21.2007 5:08pm
luagha:
In my experience, an Orthodox Seder lasts about 4-5 hours of the actual praying, eating, and ritual, plus a few more hours for more personal digressions on the topic, storytelling, and so forth.

My favorite story has to do with opening the door for Elijah. Traditionally the door is opened at the beginning of the Seder and at the invitation to Elijah, and anyone you might see outside is invited to come in and eat. (Beggars traditionally have fine Passovers.)

At the home of a friend of mine, the moment the door was open a stray cat padded in curiously. Needless to say, the stray cat had a very fine Passover meal that year.
3.21.2007 5:12pm
CrosbyBird:
By the way, and more particularly, what Jesus attended was a Passover meal, but it was not at all like the Seder as we know it today.

I remember reading something about the bread used by Jesus in his "this is my body" speech. There is a lingustic argument that the word used in that section of the New Testament specifically refers to "bread" and not "unleavened bread."

If so, it could not be a seder, because of Jewish law requires the eating of unleavened bread during the Passover holiday.

The Gospel of John supports the idea that this meal took place prior to Passover, although it is somewhat contradictory with "prepare the Passover" language in other Gospels.
3.21.2007 5:31pm
ReaderY:
Moses actually is mentioned, in exactly one place. Rabbi Yose the Galili blows it and mentions the M-word when the rabbis are running a numbers game figuring out how many plagues there were at the Red Sea at five fingers to the hand.
3.21.2007 9:44pm
ReaderY:
Passover was connected to the beginning of the barley harvest in Temple times, which is why the Omer is still counted.
3.21.2007 9:46pm
Ken Arromdee:
Is there no person as insecure in the strength and validity of their beliefs than an orthodox jew.

Pogroms can make anyone feel a little insecure.
3.21.2007 10:29pm
Byomtov (mail):
Is there no person as insecure in the strength and validity of their beliefs than an orthodox jew.

First, most orthodox Jews of my acquaintance have a better grasp of grammar than you do. They also tend to be quite secure in their beliefs.

Second, I agree with gravytrain's 2:57, and wish the "Jews for Jesus" and the like would change their act.

Third, Pesach does not celebrate the killing of Egypt's firstborn but the liberation from slavery. In fact, part of the Seder ritual expresses sympathy for the Egyptians who suffered from the plagues.
3.21.2007 10:47pm
JunkYardLawDog (mail):
Byomtov:


Third, Pesach does not celebrate the killing of Egypt's firstborn but the liberation from slavery. In fact, part of the Seder ritual expresses sympathy for the Egyptians who suffered from the plagues.


Perhaps you could consult one of those great at grammar orthodox jews for the real meaning of:


JYLD said: commemorating the night the angel of death came and killed all of Egypt's first born (but passed over the houses marked with the blood of sacrificial lambs) leading to the Pharaoh finally letting the Jews make the great exodus out of Egypt.


Because nowhere in that paragraph does it say its a celebration of killing. Commemorate doesn't equal celebrate and further what is described in that paragraph as being commemorated is the totality of the events (the passing over + the killing + the resulting great exodus). If there had been no killing of the first born of Egypt there would have been no Exodus so you can't commemorate the Exodus without commemorating, in effect, those things that are directly responsible for the Exodus taking place.

Death of the flesh was passed over by the angel of death if the house was covered/marked with the blood of the sacrificial lamb. In parallel to this is the soul of man is passed over by the death of damnation/extermination by God if its protected by the blood of the perfect sacrifice made by Yeshua. It is why Yeshua is referred to as the "lamb of God". Also, just as one didn't have to believe in the power of the lamb's blood protecting the inhabitants therein from the Angel of death in Pharaoh's time (some non-jews for example protected in Moses house, etc. as related in the Torah telling of exodus), likewise one doesn't have to believe in Yeshua as the messiah to be passed over by the angel of death as a result of the sacrificial blood of the lamb of God. The blood of that perfect sacrifice can protect and save your soul even if you don't believe in the Messiah.


They (orthodox jews) also tend to be quite secure in their beliefs.


I'm sure that's true, but it is also contradictory to CrazyTrain getting in such a tither and rambling on about proselytization and appropriation of symbols when nothing in my message could possibly be interpreted as proselytization or a solicitation of any jew to change anything about their beliefs. If the mere exposure or public statement of an idea not taught by the local Rabbi is enough to cause great worry and consternation about possible conversions from Judaism, then it seems to me such worries can only come from some deep seated insecurity of some kind. It certainly isn't logical. Non-jews don't get all worried their children will become converts to Judaism if they hear someone mention Moses or see a Menorah (or should I say Holiday Candelabra since we can't say Christmas Tree any longer). They seem more secure in their beliefs.

Says the "Dog"
3.22.2007 12:06am
JunkYardLawDog (mail):
DavidBernstein,


I believe that scholars of such things will tell you that the Passover holiday subsumed two previous, pre-Biblical holidays, "Hag Ha'Matzot" (festival of unleavened bread) and "Hag Ha'aviv (the Spring festival).



So Judaism appropriated the symbols of some pre-biblical religion/celebration. Don't tell that to CrazyTrain he's dead set against appropriation of religions symbols.

Says the "Dog"
3.22.2007 12:21am
JoshL (mail):

1. If your familial minchag is to root for the Yankees, it is not only permitted to root for Bombers, but to introduce others to the wonders of the custom. Beit Hillel taught that it matters of holiness, we only increase, and if that applies to the lights of Chanuka, how much more so to the words of my fathers.


Ah, but in Tehillim 34 (Psalms 34), we see "Sur Merah V'Aseh Tov" (avoid evil and do good). Surely we should strive to avoid the Yankees, then and anything to thwart them would be good. Though of course a family mesorah trumps this, for as we all know, minhag trumps agaddah.


My favorite story has to do with opening the door for Elijah. Traditionally the door is opened at the beginning of the Seder and at the invitation to Elijah, and anyone you might see outside is invited to come in and eat. (Beggars traditionally have fine Passovers.)


This is an interesting interpretation, but certainly not traditional. The invitation to beggars is indeed given towards the beginning of the Seder, but the invitation to Elijah, including opening the door, comes after the meal. The opening for Elijah is juxtaposed with the paragraph Shfoch Hamatcha, which beings "Shfoch Hamatcha al HaGoyim...asher lo yedaucha" (poor out your wrath up on the nations that do not know you).
3.22.2007 9:58am
j613 (mail):
"Non-jews don't get all worried their children will become converts to Judaism"

Please give any alleged insecure religious Jew a break. The past 3000 years have involved countless instances of of non Jews trying to convert Jews by force or enticement.
3.22.2007 10:00am
JunkYardLawDog (mail):
j613,


Please give any alleged insecure religious Jew a break. The past 3000 years have involved countless instances of of non Jews trying to convert Jews by force or enticement.


Well conversion by coercion, whether by force or other forms of coercion, is certainly wrong and evil. However, including enticement in your statement is problematic because from what I have seen in my life, those Jews who get excited about these things think the mere mention of or description of one's (non-jewish) faith is coercion or worse to any jew within earshot. To that I must respectfully disagree.

Jews as a group have been the subject of many evil things over the last 3000 years. That's certainly true. Its also true they aren't the only group to suffer many evil things during the past 3000 years, nor are the Jews hands always clean of evil themselves during that 3000 years. At a minimum during the early years of the christian faith groups of jews with official sanction went around murdering any christian they could find alive in the holy land (men, women, and children). They murdered them for being different, in effect.

I can certainly understand how the history of the Jewish people in just the 20th century much less the entirety of the past 3000 years makes them rather paranoid. However, paranoia can be corrosive to those afflicted, and unwittingly cause them to behave in ways that encourage, in effect, bad feelings and perhaps even bad actions in others. It can be in some respects self-reinforcing cycle of bad/evil all around.

Says the "Dog"
3.22.2007 12:00pm
j613 (mail):
"At a minimum during the early years of the christian faith groups of jews with official sanction went around murdering any christian they could find alive in the holy land (men, women, and children). They murdered them for being different, in effect."

Sorry, I'm lost. I thought the early christians were Jews. Can you give some sources for this claim against "jews with official sanction"? Do you mean the Kohen Gadol or the Sanhedran authroized the killing of people?
3.22.2007 12:38pm
JunkYardLawDog (mail):
The early christians were jews nothing I wrote contradicted that. They were still christians. Being jewish and belief in the Messiah Yeshua are not mutually exclusive.

During those times what we would call today fundamentalist orthodox jews created, supported, encouraged, (take your pick) groups of young men to go around and murder all the christians they could find. (I mean they beat up, kick and stomp, women on buses today for sitting in the "wrong" seat. Its easy to imagine just how barbaric the standards were for acceptable behavior among these jewish zealots in the year 20).

Whether these bands of murderers killing christians in the holy land were sanctioned by the Sanhedrin officially, I have no clue. What I do know is that these bands of killers weren't written about as being punished or sought for punishment by the authorities. Thats sanctioned in my book.

The history contained in the new testament (among other writings I'm sure) document what happened. For example, the apostle Paul was one of these murdering bands of killers traveling from city to city killing christians when he was struck down by the power of God and laid near death for several days. When he awoke this Jew once a killer of Christians became perhaps the greatest evangelist of the Christian movement. (Apparently nothing gets your attention like that direct bolt of lighting from God).

Says the "Dog"
3.22.2007 3:47pm
ElliotS:
I have not looked into any scholarly work on the age of the Hagada, but, from purely internal evidence, I would guess the core of it dates from the middle of the First Century C.E.-- before the year 70, because parts of it seem to asume the continued existence of the sacrifice of the Paschal lamb; and after the year 35 or so, because much of it seems to be a deliberate response to the early Hebrew Christians' attempt to re-interpret the symbolism of Passover.
3.22.2007 8:58pm