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Is John McCain's website suggestive of NAZI iconography?

It was a pleasure to see Ann Althouse at the New York Law School conference yesterday.

Ann has a post today on a disturbing line of attack on John McCain's website, which uses as much black, white, and gray as possible:

John McCain has an aesthetically pleasing website, which is distinguished by the very low color level. Instead of the usual florid blue and red, it uses elegant, crisp black, white, and gray. Perhaps that calls to mind some beautifully photographed black and white movie. Bring on the liberal commentators, and what movie do they think of? Of course, it's "Triumph of the Will," which, admittedly, is a film known for its crisp black and white photography (to go along with its Nazi propaganda).

Here's Atrios:

Imperial Stormtrooper Chic

And Ezra Klein piles on:

Atrios is right, John McCain's new campaign web site is totally "imperial stormtrooper chic."

The color scheme strikes me as more evocative of 1930s Hollywood than NAZI iconography. NAZI colors are black, white, and definitely (blood) red.

Here is a page of 1933-45 NAZI propaganda posters.

Here is a page of 1030s Dutch political posters, some of which appear to be pro-labor or progressive.

I have no idea how representative these selections are. While there are certainly more black-and-white (and low color) posters in both collections than one would see in the 1930s French or Swiss travel posters that are sold on the market today, that may reflect more the desire to depict travel (or food) in more colorful terms.

Germany, 1933:

Germany, 1933:

Netherlands, 1933:

Netherlands, 1933:

The four posters I copied here are neither the most, nor the least, colorful on either site. They all are from the same year, 1933.

The few FDR posters I've seen are not particularly colorful either:

Exra Klein goes on to criticize the martial tone of the content of the McCain website, a criticism with which Ann in part agrees.

UPDATE: There are MANY excellent comments below, which require some additional qualifications.

First, "Imperial Stormtroopers" refers more directly to a military force in Star Wars (who wore black and white uniforms), rather than the NAZIs. Of course, they were named Stormtroopers to suggest NAZIs.

Second, I noted that Ezra Klein attacked the martial tone of the content of the site, as well as its color scheme, though I didn't discuss his comments. Klein makes explicit NAZI references, but many of them focus on the videos, rather than the black-and-white color scheme.

So while Atrios's comment wasn't explicitly about NAZIs, Klein's was, though Klein focused more on the videos than on the color scheme. Although I still find the line of argument "disturbing," which was my main editorial comment, I realize that by quoting just part of Ann Althouse's post, my original post may have implied more than was justified.

Dave N (mail):
Here is the link to the McCain website for those who don't want to link to it through Ann Althouse's website.

The Republicans = Nazi theme is rather tiresome. That said, McCain's website advertises itself as "A Departure from the Traditional Campaign Website." I am not sure that is accurate either--though I did like the muted color schemes because they are different.
2.17.2007 4:19pm
Vovan:
Uhm, if Imperial Stormtroopers = Nazis then Ann has a point, if Imperial Stormtroopers = Militarism, then there is no "disturbing line of attack" to speak of.
2.17.2007 4:43pm
Dr. Weevil (mail) (www):
Weren't posters in those days (and for many years after) cheaper if they used fewer colors? A professional would know better, but my impression is that the Roosevelt poster (for example) would have had to be run through the printing press three times, once each for the red, blue, and black ink, while a simple black-and-white (or blue-and-white or red-and-white) poster could have been done in a single pass. That would have encouraged the use of a limited range of colors: red, white, and blue for Americans, red, white, and black for Nazis.

Also, I don't see how anyone could think that black plus white refers to Triumph of the Will unless that is the only black-and-white movie they have seen. I could just as easily associate the McCain website with The Thin Man or Casablanca or Out of the Past.
2.17.2007 4:43pm
Hattio (mail):
To be fair, from my quick glance the only reference to Nazism (by Atrios or Ezra Klein) is that the initial movie is militaristic and reminds him of Triumph of Will. I've never seen Triumph of Will, but that was quite a few military scenes in a very short movie. This is, once again, a tempest in a teapot. Or maybe, a teapot in search of a tempest.
2.17.2007 4:47pm
Dave N (mail):
Vovan:

When you hear "Stormtroopers" do you think "militarism" or do you think "Nazi"? Personally, I associate the term specifically with the Nazis.

I have never heard of Stalin having "storm troopers" or Mao or Genghis Khan or any other non Fascist military leader having them either. Have you?
2.17.2007 4:49pm
Vovan:

Also, I don't see how anyone could think that black plus white refers to Triumph of the Will


This, is Klein's actual quote: "Atrios is right, John McCain's new campaign web site is totally "imperial stormtrooper chic." But to get the full flavor of the terrifyingly martial undercurrent, watch the video "stand up," which is currently the default clip on the front page. It looks like an over-the-top parody of fascist campaign propaganda from a movie, and sounds like Triumph of the Will."

Note, he is talking about a video, NOT about the color scheme, to which he refers as militaristic. Althouse, does a good job twisting his position though.
2.17.2007 4:50pm
Constantin:
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the comparison. McCain's website uses various combinations of consonants and vowels, written left to right, as did most, if not all, of the Nazi propaganda. He also seems ready to employ various visual graphics, such as photographs, to further the text--JUST LIKE THE NAZIS. That's too weird to be mere coincidence.
2.17.2007 4:52pm
Jeff Leyser (mail):
Neither Atrios nor Ezra said Stormtroopers. They said Imperial Stormtroopers. That's a Star Wars reference, not Nazi! You know, the guys who dress in all white, and are lead by the guy who dresses in all black.
2.17.2007 4:57pm
Vovan:

When you hear "Stormtroopers" do you think "militarism" or do you think "Nazi"? Personally, I associate the term specifically with the Nazis.

I have never heard of Stalin having "storm troopers" or Mao or Genghis Khan or any other non Fascist military leader having them either. Have you?


When I hear stormtroopers I think of Star Wars, Apparently so do most people

If, you did not think that Stalin had them, look here.
2.17.2007 5:01pm
Dave N (mail):
Out of fairness to Atrios Black (I am shuddering at the thought of even writing THAT), he merely referred to the site as "Stormtrooper Chic" and opened a thread. Ezra Klein makes a broader argument seeming to compare McCain's website with Nazi propoganda.
2.17.2007 5:01pm
cvt:
Where does Ann Althouse get the idea that liberals are judging McCain's website based on the color scheme. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see that either Atrios or Ezra Klein said anything about the colors. There is something militaristic about the video, especially the background music, which sounds like one of the themes from Star Wars. I think it's fair to draw a connection between the black and grays and the "vote for me or the terrorists will get you" theme of the McCain website, but the lack of colors by themselves do not suggest that.

As far as Nazi colors are concerned, any association between a color scheme and Nazis would be limited to a specific time and place, at most. For example, the red, black, and white Nazi flag replaced the German red, black, and gold flag used in the Weimar period and used again today. But no reasonable person today would call, red, black, and white by itself a Nazi color scheme.
2.17.2007 5:01pm
Nathan_M (mail):
I might be missing something, but isn't it more likely "imperial stormtrooper chic" is a reference to the black and white uniforms of Imperial Stormtroopers from Star Wars rather than the Nazis?
2.17.2007 5:03pm
microtherion (mail):
I'm not sure if "Imperial Stormtroopers" was meant to be a Nazi reference. I thought it was a "Star Wars" reference (which itself could be argued to be a Nazi reference).

As for the movie, it didn't visually remind me much of what I know about "Triumph of the Will", except that every second scene seems to have a searchlight moving across McCain's face. I'm afraid that director is no Riefenstahl.
2.17.2007 5:04pm
John Jenkins (mail):
It reminded me of this:

http://www.pow-miafamilies.org/flaghistory.html
2.17.2007 5:12pm
Brian G (mail) (www):
Of course it is a tribute to Nazism. McCain knows that he can't win the Presidency unless people think that America will emulate the Nazi regime and he will be the modern Hitler.

Seriously, this is perhaps the silliest thing I have ever read here, except maybe the "Is the Air Force unconstitutional?" threads.
2.17.2007 5:29pm
TheGoodReverend (mail) (www):
The Vilsack website still strikes me as a little more fascist, but in a the-past's-vision-of-the-future sort of way. McCain is trying more too look like a very special episode of The West Wing.
2.17.2007 5:30pm
Dave N (mail):
To TheGoodReverend:

AMEN
2.17.2007 5:33pm
Andrew Janssen (mail):
Count me as another who saw "imperial stormtrooper" and thought Star Wars, not Nazis. Of course, Lucas's stormtroopers and the aesthetic of the Galactic Empire were intended to evoke the Nazi era, so I can see the connection.

Anyway, John McCain doesn't resemble Emperor Palpatine as much as Pope Benedict XVI does.
2.17.2007 5:40pm
John Jenkins (mail):
McCain isn't even the Senator who most resembles Palpatine. That honor goes to Joe Lieberman.
2.17.2007 5:50pm
ngh:
It's fairly obvious he's comparing the website (which has almost no color other than black and white) to stormtroopers from Star Wars. Perhaps Althouse should brush up on that cultural knowledge thing? Might prevent looking like an idiot at times.
2.17.2007 5:57pm
Don Meaker (mail):
important to note that green printed colors used chromium, a crucial materials for production of hardened steel.

Red used comparitively common iron oxide.
2.17.2007 6:01pm
Dave N (mail):
John Jenkins:

I am wandering off topic--but you are wrong. The "honor" of Senator most resembling Palpatine has to be Robert K. Byrd.

Brian G:

This is not as silly as "Is the Air Force Constitutional?" But it is close.

However, it being a weekend, frivolous topics should be encouraged. After all, Orin Kerr has two posts: One on the late great Theloneous Monk and the other on Brittany Spear's bald head. Additionally, EV is concerned today lest we forget Dear Leader's Birthday.

While Monk's legacy will assuredly outlive me, a discussion about one of the leading candidates for President (or at leat his website) seems more substantial than Brittany Spear's head or Dear Leader's birthday (except, of course, for VC readers in Pyongyang).
2.17.2007 6:03pm
OC Gero (mail):
As a professional gerontologist, my first thought was from a slightly different perspective -- the website is directed towards seniors. The black and white of McCain's website is much easier on the eyes than Vilsack's which offers a dramatic and annoying color scheme. Aside from McCain's darker intro page what follows is very easy on the eyes with an abundance of white space in the background -- exactly what you would use if you were appealing to a population with lower visual acuity.

By the end of 2006, 33% of seniors were online, perhaps he's just subtly going after the conservative market in a different way?
2.17.2007 6:08pm
Elliot123 (mail):
My God! Was that old Sylvania black and white TV with the aluminum foil on the rabbit ears a Nazi plot? Was Ansel Adams a Nazi? How about Moe, Larry and Curly? Were they B&W Nazis? And color blind people? Are they Nazis, too? How about Fido? He sees in B&W.
2.17.2007 6:51pm
Enoch:
Is anyone else seeing google ads on the right hand side for "Third Reich films on DVD", "Nazi Germany at www.shopping.com", and "Hitler Ringtones for your cellphone"? And also "McCain Foods". Strange how that works...
2.17.2007 6:56pm
Bio Prof (mail):
The greyscale scheme is much easier to read for people who are colorblind. Many website color combos are impossible to read for those who are colorblind (estimates that up to 10% of the population has some form of colorblindness).
2.17.2007 6:57pm
Enoch:
One can see from the video that McCain wishes to emphasize that he served his country... yes, that is indeed a "terrifyingly martial undercurrent". What an inane criticism.
2.17.2007 6:59pm
The River Temoc (mail):
Ansel Adams must have been a Nazi, too.
2.17.2007 7:00pm
nrein1 (mail):
To anyone under 40, stormtroopers means Star Wars not Nazis. It is clear that is what atrios and ezra are refering to. Especially as the comparison does make sense, Imperial decor is minimilistic, white and grey.
2.17.2007 7:15pm
Justin (mail):
Adolph.......Vader?

This is a pretty unfair attack on Ezra and Duncan, and deserves an update and an apology.
2.17.2007 7:22pm
Rollo Tomasi (mail):
Soviet era art was often desaturated as well, though their imperial outreach and genocides had the benefit of good intentions.
2.17.2007 8:25pm
Radical Capitalist:
Was I the only one to find the poster of FDR/Truman compared to Nazi posters of the same era of interest? Friedrich Hayek, of course, noted in "The Road to Serfdom" that the policies of FDR were similar in many ways to the collectivism of the Nazis America fought. Seems their posters bore some resemblances as well...
2.17.2007 8:29pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
Adolph.......Vader?

This is a pretty unfair attack on Ezra and Duncan, and deserves an update and an apology.
First, it wasn't an "attack" on either of them.

Second, unfair to Ezra? Ex-squeeze me? Perhaps Atrios was only thinking Star Wars -- that's indeed what I think of when I hear the phrase "imperial stormtrooper" -- but Ezra explicitly mentioned "Triumph of the Will".
2.17.2007 8:59pm
Colin (mail):
This is a pretty unfair attack on Ezra and Duncan, and deserves an update and an apology.

Agreed. But what are the odds? All's fair in blogging and meta-blogging. Or, at least, the only standards are the author's own.
2.17.2007 9:02pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Both the German National Socialist and the Russian Socialists used visual propaganda very skillfully and effectively. Browse posters from the Museum of the Political History of Russia to get a flavor. For example this Lenin poster is particularly effective. Note it only uses gray and red. Why not use what works? Basically all politics is propaganda. Who cares what Atrios and Klein think?
2.17.2007 9:24pm
Elliot Reed:
I don't know about the color scheme, but the music accompanying the video on the front page gives me serious chills. It sounds to me like the music of someone who's running for Supreme Dictator, not the leader of a free people. McCain's (obviously) not doing that, but that's the vague impression I get from the music.
2.17.2007 9:28pm
loki13 (mail):

Adolph.......Vader?

This is a pretty unfair attack on Ezra and Duncan, and deserves an update and an apology.
First, it wasn't an "attack" on either of them.

Second, unfair to Ezra? Ex-squeeze me? Perhaps Atrios was only thinking Star Wars -- that's indeed what I think of when I hear the phrase "imperial stormtrooper" -- but Ezra explicitly mentioned "Triumph of the Will".


Quick refresher on the timeline here:

1. Atrios posts a link to McCain's website under the heading of 'Imperial Stormtrooper chic'.
* Cute, if jokey, Star Wars reference to a link to a slightly overdone campaign website.

2. Ezra then has a followup post about a particular video on the website that he believes has militaristic overtones. In particular, the comment is about the militaristic 'propoganda-ish' aspect of the video, with a reference to the music of the video as being in akin to 'Triumph of the Will.'
* Okay, perhaps this should be thrown out by invoking Godwin's law. But it is a bizarre video, and had this come from a different candidate, would certainly have seemed out of place (Hillary, for example).

3. Mr. Lindgren then lumps everyone together by linking to Althouse (perhaps that was the mistake) and with the claim that the liberals (loosely defined as Atrios and Ezra) are claiming McCain's website is Nazi propoganda.
* Okay, this is where I get lost. This is either a willful misrepresentation of the original posts, or was created by someone who have never enjoyed George Lucas's films.

I did enjoy the posters. As for an apology.... posting on the internet means never having to say you're sorry.
2.17.2007 9:51pm
GD:
Why did Roosevelt and Truman have a chicken symbol on their poster? Not fitting at all for those great men. [Fill in your own joke regarding the modern Democratic party here]
2.17.2007 9:52pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
"Why did Roosevelt and Truman have a chicken symbol on their poster?"

In the 1928 presidential campaign the Republican National Committee ran an ad saying that (among other things) the administrations of Harding and Coolidge "put a chicken in every pot." Hoover himself never used that phrase although he became associated with it. The Great Depression made a mockery of the promise of prosperity to come, so I suspect Roosevelt used the chicken picture to mock that campaign slogan.
2.17.2007 10:07pm
The Divagator (mail) (www):

I don't know about the color scheme, but the music accompanying the video on the front page gives me serious chills. It sounds to me like the music of someone who's running for Supreme Dictator, not the leader of a free people. McCain's (obviously) not doing that, but that's the vague impression I get from the music.


What exactly is the political-campaign soundtrack for a 'free people'? Nine Inch Nails? 'Dueling Banjos'? 'Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy'? Ah me :)
2.17.2007 10:22pm
K:
GD &Zarkov:

Two ideas about the chicken. One based on fact, the other a guess.

In some states symbols were printed on ballots so illiterate voters could readily spot their party. The Democrats did not use the donkey. They used the rooster. Why? I don't know.

Second idea. Somewhat less likely. The Farmer-Labor Party merged into the Democratic Party of Minnesota just before the Roosevelt-Truman run in 1944. I believe (don't know for sure) the Farm-Labor Party symbol was a rooster. Maybe the poster was from Minnesota or a nearby state that also had a Farm-Labor Party.

The Democratic-Farm-Labor Party name is still used seventy years later. Abbreviated DFL.

We are certain to hear from Minnesota now. They take the DFL quite seriously there.
2.17.2007 10:41pm
K:
Second comment.

This color scheme nonsense is indeed nonsense. The Imperial Stormtroopers were bad because the Empire was bad. If you don't believe me ask George Lucas or see his three part documentary about it all.

Maybe the IST were as bad as the Nazi ST. Can we be sure? They were in a galaxy far, far way.

The Nazi party color was brown not black, white, or red. But after they gained control they damn well used any and every color as they pleased. The SS ended up with black.

Goering - after receiving the highest military rank - chose white and sky blue for his more memorable fashion statements.
2.17.2007 11:00pm
U.Va. 1L:
Slow day in world news, huh?
2.18.2007 12:28am
JoshL (mail):
Hmmm...well, the most famous recent movie that I can think of that's in black and white is Schindler's List....
2.18.2007 1:02am
A. Zarkov (mail):
K:

A rooster? He said a "chicken." In Midwestern states particularly Ohio; the Republicans used an eagle on the ballot, while the Democrats used a rooster. Or is it a capon (castrated rooster)? Greenfield Indiana claims that it's the birthplace of the Democratic Rooster in the campaign of 1840. See this photograph of a town marker.
2.18.2007 4:31am
Phil333333:
I don't think Nazi's or Stormtroopers when I visit that website, I just think horrible PR. That's the website of someone who is trying to be a dictator, not a president. I'm not saying that McCain is, but that website gives off the most unfriendly vibe I've ever felt from a campaign.
2.18.2007 5:45am
steve (mail):

...I realize that by quoting just part of Ann Althouse's post, my original post may have implied more than was justified.


I dare say. How does that go: Ready, Shoot, Aim
2.18.2007 7:32am
johnt (mail):
What I recall from Star wars and Stormtroopers is that they were good for nothing, presenting useful targets for obliteration.

The term "stormtroopers" was coined well before Hitler having been used in WW l to describe voulunter trench raiders.

A failed historian above makes a reference to Stalin having stormtroopers. What Stalin had was the Red Guard divisions, also NKVD divisions but they were used mostly for enforcement behind the lines and capturing deserters.
2.18.2007 9:33am
johnt (mail):
And Sorry for the 9:33 spelling of "volunteer".
2.18.2007 9:36am
Dex (mail):
So a greyscale theme pegs him as a Nazi...

Shoeboxes all over America must be full of pictures of American WWII Nazi Troopers heading off to the continent in the figh against... um....

You'd have to be taking crazy pills to make that connection...

Although I have seen a Black and white photo of Ann Coulter...
2.18.2007 10:54am
Justin (mail):
So while Atrios's comment wasn't explicitly about NAZIs, Klein's was, though Klein focused more on the videos what actually made the webpage like Triumph of the Will rather than on the color scheme. what I complain about. Although I still find the line of argument liberals "disturbing," which was my main editorial comment, I realize that by quoting just part of Ann Althouse's post, my original post may have implied more than was not justified.

Fixed your apology.
2.18.2007 11:43am
The Editors, American Federalist Journal (mail) (www):
"I might be missing something, but isn't it more likely "imperial stormtrooper chic" is a reference to the black and white uniforms of Imperial Stormtroopers from Star Wars rather than the Nazis?"

Isn't it more reasonable to assume it was a Nazi reference, given the fact that hardly a day goes by without the average left-wing blogger making a "Republicans are Nazis/fascists" reference of some kind?
2.18.2007 12:56pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
I see Justin still won't admit he was wrong about anything.
2.18.2007 4:05pm
Spectral Disorder:

Isn't it more reasonable to assume it was a Nazi reference, given the fact that hardly a day goes by without the average left-wing blogger making a "Republicans are Nazis/fascists" reference of some kind?

Yeah, I guess that would make more sense -- if your a complete moron.
2.18.2007 4:15pm
K:
Zarkov: What did you mean? A rooster is a chicken.

But as a symbol - at least in English - the words have a great difference.

I speak only about the poster and have no interest in any attempt to use the illustrated bird to imply cowardice. It looked like a rooster to me.

Thanks for the Greenfield factoid.
2.18.2007 7:29pm
Lord Vader:
That's the website of someone who is trying to be a dictator, not a president. I'm not saying that McCain is, but that website gives off the most unfriendly vibe I've ever felt from a campaign.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
2.18.2007 8:10pm
Mark Field (mail):

I see Justin still won't admit he was wrong about anything.


What was he wrong about in this thread that he should have admitted?
2.18.2007 8:20pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
What was he wrong about in this thread that he should have admitted?
1) That there was an "attack" on Ezra and Atrios.

2) That it was "unfair" to say that Ezra was comparing McCain's website to Nazi propaganda, when he explicitly was.

Oh, and while this isn't something Justin was objectively wrong about, it's pretty absurd to claim that Ezra, who deliberately misrepresented McCain's message, is owed an apology.
2.19.2007 3:06am
johnt (mail):
Spectral Disorder, The only thing wrong with the post you so eloquently quoted was that references to the KKK were left out. There was also a reference to what Republicans do "on the back roads" uttered by a then President renowned for his sexual assaults.
In any case I suppose you have never heard the term "BusHitler". Let me pass it on to you for your edification and thoughtful consideration.
Now what were you saying about morons?
2.19.2007 7:31am
Mark Field (mail):

1) That there was an "attack" on Ezra and Atrios.

2) That it was "unfair" to say that Ezra was comparing McCain's website to Nazi propaganda, when he explicitly was.


I guess there are lots of us wrong on these counts. I won't be apologizing either.
2.19.2007 10:50am
Spectral Disorder:
Johnt -
I don't really know what you're talking about. I block quoted a response that was posted about a half inch above my response, that made no reference to the KKK or backroads; I quoted in full. As far as the term Bushitler, I neither know nor care who coined it. I am not sure what relevance it has here.
If your power of logical reasoning is limited to
(i) some people compare bush to hitler,
(ii) someone used the term "imperial stormtrooper" when referring to McCain's website, ergo
(iii) they must have been making a Nazi reference even though the plainest and most obvious reading of "imperial stormtrooper" is a reference to star wars,

then you are either (a) a moron, (b) utterly ignorant of popular culture or (c) trying really hard to take offense.
2.19.2007 11:22am
josh:
This is sad. Althouse accuses Atrios of refering to McCain's web site as involving Nazis. He wasn't, but instead was refering to Star Wars, and still there is bickering on the blogs. Why can't people (the commenters in this thread and Lingren as well) operate the way Kerr and Volokh often do, which is to apologize for the error and move on.

Forget Klein's post. The argument about his explicit words or intent says nothing about the fact that Alhouse simply jumped into Godwin's law first regarding solely Atrios and got it wrong. She owes him an apology and a correction.
2.19.2007 3:06pm
Bill V. (mail):
I don't know if I can add to conversation here, but it would seem quite obvious that the reason for the site's grayscale color scheme relates to the current status of the McCain presidential bid. He is currently only in the "exploratory" stage of his campaign, therefore the sedated color palette. When he finally "officially" announces his presidential run, like a butterfly coming out the cocoon, you can probably expect the site to morph into the usual "red, white, blue" patriotic color scheme. There is a metaphor in play but I sincerely doubt it has anything to do with Nazi propaganda or, for that matter, Star Wars.
2.19.2007 3:54pm
BobNSF (mail):
A lot of y'all would benefit from a course in Art History, Film Imagery, or Graphic Arts.
2.19.2007 4:20pm
johnt (mail):
Spectral Disorder, Not having claimed that you did make reference to the KKK I'm not sure why you deny having done so. I suppose that's how great minds work.
Now sit down with your remedial reading instructor and go over this.
Read, and you're allowed to move your lips, my first sentence.
"references were left out" of the post you smeared. As simply as I can put it that means that along with the Nazi/Fascist stuff you get occasional KKK name calling as well. To jump ahead and use your phrase it is part of our "popular culture", of which you may be more ignorant then I am.

You missed it but I never said anything about "The Editors" being either right or wrong in their conclusion re the original post. But that it is important to the Lefts vocabulary gives at least leeway for the comment.


Your fastidious approach to posting should be broadened to such vile language as Bushitler,but perhaps that's the rub in the first place. The Editors may have stuck close to bone, as your carefree dismissal of the phrase hints at.

As for the rest of the spillage of your mind I'm not interested, except for a passing interest in hysteria.
2.19.2007 5:24pm
Elliot Reed:
I don't think Nazi's or Stormtroopers when I visit that website, I just think horrible PR. That's the website of someone who is trying to be a dictator, not a president. I'm not saying that McCain is, but that website gives off the most unfriendly vibe I've ever felt from a campaign.
That's a bit unfair. The "McCain for Supreme Dictator" vibe is mostly from the video on the front page. The rest of the website is fine. But that video is really, really scary.
2.19.2007 6:13pm
Elliot Reed:
re "Bushitler": as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal who reads left-wing blogs and magazines all the time, I have never seen a single use of "Bushitler" from a leftist. The term is the exclusive property of those who purport to be characterizing left-wing views. Doubtlessly you can find some idiot who put it on a sign at a protest somewhere, but if you think it's in common use in left-wing discourse you either (a) know nothing about the culture of the American progressive movement or (b) are simply lying. Or both, which is likely.
2.19.2007 6:22pm
TLB (mail) (www):
Out of fairness to Atrios Black (I am shuddering at the thought of even writing THAT), he merely referred to the site as "Stormtrooper Chic" and opened a thread.

Note: when a "liberal" blogger - especially scum like Atrios - does something like that, they know exactly where it's going to lead. It's like throwing out red meat larded with pork and coated with blood.
2.19.2007 11:29pm
gravytop (mail) (www):
Dear Elliot (dyed-in-the-wool liberal who has never seen the expression "bushitler" in a left wing blog):

Found the following after a grueling and intensive ten second search:


http://tinyurl.com/2puo3k

Your comment about the lying, politically ignorant right-wing promoters of the Bushitler meme is pretty clearly untrue. I wouldn't accuse you of lying, but the ignorance shoe appears to fit your foot with Birkenstockian precision. And both shoe and foot fit your mouth nicely too.
2.20.2007 3:28am
johnt (mail):
Elliot Reed, Elliot, essentially I'm an easy guy to get along with. Therefore, and in the spirit of compromise, may I offer that I've seen the Bushitler thing on placards at demonstrations numerous times.
This will allow your statement to stand as to never seeing it on blogs and my statement to stand as to it having been used.
My earlier comment about the KKK also being used in the Lefts lexicon will also stand thanks, among others, to representative Charlie Rangel. After he used it in a NY Times interview he was complimented as "feisty". I would have thought it foul &filthy mouthed but the Times and I differ.
There, hopefully we have reached common ground &with the satisfaction of peace and finality I may wander off to other sites.
2.20.2007 7:52am
XON:
Lord Vader: hilarious.

I'm surprised that in 70+ comments nobody mentions that McCain is obviously pandering to the hard-core, red-statists who wish for the good old days in the midst of the very unsettlingly fast 21st century. And what is the biggest contrast to 'da internets'? The good old black, white, and read all over newspapers. It makes sense if you consider the cost of b/w graphics v. licensing a bunch of rockwell prints.

You only get this when you first take into account his recent embrace of evangelicals and his even more recently declared opposition to Roe v. Wade. Once you see those, it's obvious he's gunning for W's old, scared, reactionary constituency.
2.20.2007 9:41am
Jeek:
Elliott, the inane Bush = Hitler slur is so common on the Left that to deny it is just laughable - either you know nothing about Lefty websites, or you're lying, or both.
2.20.2007 9:53am
Colin (mail):
Chalk me up as another reader of liberal blogs and sites who hasn't seen "Bushitler" used in any context other than as a caricature of progressive rhetoric. Jeek, gravytop, there is no basis to accuse Elliott of lying to you. I'm sure you can find the occasional use, especially by trolling through DK's open comments and diaries. That doesn't mean that the comment is widely or seriously used. I doubt that you would hold conservatives in general responsible for the most insane and obscure LGF or Powerline comments, after all.

This has been a relatively nasty thread. Calling Elliott a liar, TLB's "scum like Atrios" remark... I think this is the inevitable result of such a misleading and unjustified post.
2.20.2007 11:13am