pageok
pageok
pageok
</hate>

I spotted a T-shirt at school bearing this inscription, but I don't think it quite means what some people assume it means.

I take it that it's supposed to mean "end hate." But when you use a tag like </i>, you don't mean "end italics" in the sense "abandon italics forever." You mean "I've been using italics for a bit, I'm stopping for a while now, but I'll get back to using it later."

Substitute "hate" for "i," and you'll get my drift. I bet the guy has a <hate> T-shirt in his closet that he was wearing three days before; he's hated all the stuff between then and the </hate> shirt; and he'll be wearing the <hate> shirt next time he's got some hating to do. Plus he certainly wouldn't just wear the </hate> shirt without having worn <hate> before, and on the same page -- that would be syntactically non-compliant.

FantasiaWHT:
I think it would be funnier, and horrific to some extent, if the front of the shirt said < hate > and the back said < /hate >. You might see the guy or gal from the back and assume warm sentiments until you read the front.
1.29.2007 2:01pm
Daniel Chapman (mail):
See THIS is why I read volokh.com...
1.29.2007 2:06pm
John Burgess (mail) (www):
So, Eugene... are you becoming a prescriptivist in HTML where you're a descriptivist in other languages? "Why the bias?" curious minds would like to know.

I'm starting the HTML Slang League today!
1.29.2007 2:06pm
Byomtov (mail):
are you becoming a prescriptivist in HTML

This is actually TSML: t-shirt markup language. It follows a different set of rules.
1.29.2007 2:11pm
A DC resident (mail):
I always like this T-shirt

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/frustrations/5aa9/


"There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't."
1.29.2007 2:15pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
This may actually be the single geekiest post I have ever read on the internet...

I can say that, because I'm geeky enough to get it, agree with you, and laugh at the spin you're putting on it!
1.29.2007 2:15pm
Jesse Wendel:
FantasiaWHT's point is well taken.

If one wears a shirt with <hate> on one side and </hate> on the other side, the logical conclusion is everything between the two is hated, that is, one's body or one's self.
1.29.2007 2:18pm
Anonymous Reader:
So would you have preferred !=hate? Or would --hate have been better?
1.29.2007 2:24pm
luagha:
I too immediately thought of the <hate> front and </hate> back. I don't think it would mean that everything between the two is 'hated'; it would mean that everything between the two IS hate. As in, while you are wearing the t-shirt, you are a little bundle of hate, and anything in that space is 'hate on.'
1.29.2007 2:24pm
Q the Enchanter (mail) (www):
I thought that tag had been deprecated.
1.29.2007 2:25pm
Christopher M (mail):
But of course, as anyone who's ever closed someone else's stupid open italics tag on a comments thread knows, HTML doesn't care whether the author of the opening tag and the closing tag are the same. So I would take the message to be something like: there sure are a lot of people out there with opening <hate> tags; time to start doing some closing.
1.29.2007 2:27pm
Guest J (mail):
I think it makes sense in a self-critical way. It could be taken as speaking for our whole society. In this interpretation, it means something like this: "Lately we as a society -- myself included -- have been speaking and acting in a way that is characterized by hate. I am choosing to end the hate in my own utterances and actions at this point and inviting you to join me."

Now whether you agree with that or not is a different matter. But it could be a coherent message.
1.29.2007 2:28pm
Brian G (mail) (www):
Good thing it didn't criticize homosexuals. The First Amendment doesn't apply to that.
1.29.2007 2:28pm
Thief (mail) (www):
How aboutmv hate dev/null?
1.29.2007 2:30pm
Gary McGath (www):
A better alternative would be:

rm hate

This would go with a button which I once saw:

rm /bin/laden
1.29.2007 2:31pm
Not a con law prof:
I thought that tag had been deprecated.

Perhaps, but that won't matter to originalists.
1.29.2007 2:33pm
Anderson (mail) (www):
What Christopher M said. Though EV considers that such matters should be handled by direct petition to the proprietor of the site, which in this case is, I guess, God.
1.29.2007 2:36pm
Evan (mail) (www):
There is such a thing as being overly legalistic. . . But "syntactically non-compliant" would make a good t-shirt.
1.29.2007 2:40pm
Caliban Darklock (www):
> There are only 10 types of people

I prefer this variant:

"There are 11 types of people in the world.
Those who understand binary, those who don't,
and those who try to tell this joke out loud."
1.29.2007 2:40pm
W.D.:

You mean "I've been using italics for a bit, I'm stopping for a while now, but I'll get back to using it later."


A geeky reply: The person who closes a tag need not always be the one who opened it. For example, it is common on web forums (at least poorly designed ones) for a poster to forget to close an italic or bold tag, causing everything everyone else posts thereafter to be italic. At some point someone else will post a closing tag to end the madness.

I have no idea if that's the point of the t-shirt, but it would be consistent with the presumed sentiment.
1.29.2007 2:40pm
James Grimmelmann (mail) (www):
Pun.
1.29.2007 2:42pm
Dave!:
Your interpretation of the close tag isn't exactly right. It does not mean, "I'll get back to using italics later" it means, "I'm done using italics." There is nothing implied about ever using italics again. It just means that the text between the two tags should be italicized, it doesn't mean "wait until I start using it again."

Now, you could say that a </hate> t-shirt meant this guy was previously hating and that would be accurate... :)
1.29.2007 2:43pm
Goober (mail):
Prof. Volokh,

We all love you, but this needs to stop. Right now. No interrogating what the crazy kids these days are saying and wearing on their tshirts. Please.
1.29.2007 2:44pm
Alvin:
One could use rm -rf hate, but I think civil rights activists might get upset by the use of force (recursive force at that)...
1.29.2007 2:49pm
liberty (mail) (www):
This would go with a button which I once saw:

rm /bin/laden


Thats awesome! It might be more accurate though to include the necessary force. Don't want to have to be asked if we really mean it!

rm -f /bin/laden
1.29.2007 2:52pm
whiskey:
This shirt should be obfusticated perl of course.
1.29.2007 2:52pm
Not a con law prof:
There is nothing implied about ever using italics again.

I don't know. If you used italics once, I think the chances are very high -- approaching 100% -- that you will use it again. I think there is at least a weak implication there.
1.29.2007 3:00pm
Steve P. (mail):
I would view it as an attempt to close one open hate tag, if there was one, before it got to him. Thus, giving the viewer the impression the wearer has done a little to inure himself from the hate in the world, and that he may be a less hateful person than some.
1.29.2007 3:01pm
liberty (mail) (www):
This shirt should be obfusticated perl of course.

No such thing!

s/o[qbt]\S{2}s(tic)[aeiou](?:ted)/$1/gims;

tic!
1.29.2007 3:12pm
FantasiaWHT:
Now is he closing his own hate or trying to close others'?
1.29.2007 3:43pm
ifoughtthelaw (mail) (www):
You're overthinking it (obviously). It says "end hate." It doesn't need context. It's a dumb shirt, but it makes sense within its own prescribed universe.
1.29.2007 3:46pm
JohnAnnArbor (www):
Nerd bumper sticker, printed in red:
"If this is blue, you're driving too fast."
1.29.2007 4:02pm
Martin Grant (mail):
It was suggest to me that the T-shirt should be:
sed -e 's/hate//g' world or just the regexp in the middle, 's/hate//g'.

P.S. It took me a while to get my wife to agree, but finally named the new kitten: "/bin/grep" . Had to get the vet to change the back slashes to forward slashes on my pet reminders.
1.29.2007 4:07pm
liberty (mail) (www):
why not s/hate/love/g if you're gonna be all hippie and sh*t?

;-)
1.29.2007 4:15pm
Bill Poser (mail) (www):

This may actually be the single geekiest post I have ever read on the internet.


01010010 01100101 01100001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00111111 00001010
1.29.2007 4:16pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Not a con law prof: My thinking exactly.
1.29.2007 4:30pm
Jon Bristow (mail) (www):
I prefer to use <hate/> to show that my hate contains nothing.
1.29.2007 4:43pm
Doug Sundseth (mail):
"> There are only 10 types of people

"I prefer this variant:

'There are 11 types of people in the world.
Those who understand binary, those who don't,
and those who try to tell this joke out loud.'"

As one who's done that, I concur. That said, I prefer:

"There are 10 kinds of people in the world: People who understand binary, people who don't, and people who understand trinary. Recurse to taste."
1.29.2007 4:46pm
q10 (www):
i think it's supposed to me ‘the hate stops here’.
1.29.2007 4:48pm
q10 (www):
that was supposed to be `mean', not `me'. oh well.
1.29.2007 4:49pm
Stormy Dragon (mail) (www):
>he's hated all the stuff between then and the </hate>
>shirt

Actually, I think it would mean that the viewer has had to hate the wearer since they last saw him in the <hate> shirt and are not allowed to stop hating him.
1.29.2007 4:57pm
Stormy Dragon (mail) (www):
Now allowed, even.
1.29.2007 4:58pm
liberty (mail) (www):
y'all would write some pretty buggy programs with all these typos.
1.29.2007 5:00pm
jdnyu:
I think you forgot to close a tag, Volokh. Allow me. </pedantic>
1.29.2007 5:06pm
Jitterbob:
You're overthinking it (obviously). It says "end hate." It doesn't need context. It's a dumb shirt, but it makes sense within its own prescribed universe.

ifoughtthelaw,
Methinks you're overthinking Prof. Volokh's post. It's a geeky, joking post about a funny little observation (obviously). And one of the reasons I love coming to the Vol.Consp. Keep up the interesting observations of little oddities, Prof. Volokh!
1.29.2007 5:07pm
Tom Morris (mail) (www):
As an XML geek, I must say I rather like this post. To make this shirt perfect, you could have it like this:

<hate />

This would specify that hate has both started and ended, but contains no content.

Alternatively, you could do it as a RELAX NG schema, which is prescriptive (or as prescriptive as an XML schema gets):

<rng:choice><hate><rng:empty /></hate></rng:choice>

You have a choice to hate, but you don't have to (you can always have another choice). No problems with free will either.

To the commenter above who suggested that it is not correct to have a closing tag on it's own: that's not strictly correct. It's not valid XML. It can, if I recall correctly, be valid SGML - and there are various other markup languages which have end tags but not start tags.

Byomtov: is there a schema available for T-Shirt Markup Language?
1.29.2007 5:32pm
eddy:
Tom Morris --

As far as T-Shirt Mark-up Language, I know of at least one generally accepted attribute:

Size(p): with acceptable parameters of S, M, L, XL and XXL.
1.29.2007 5:55pm
Rebekah (www):
Does this shirt silliness mean that geek is becoming a more commonplace language, and, eventually, the State could start putting up signs along the highways with
< construction > and < /construction > on them?

Cool.
1.29.2007 6:04pm
jim:
Perhaps, but that won't matter to originalists.


That depends on whether you are an Original Render Engine originalist or an Original Specifications originalist. Letting evolving specifications govern the layout of a document is too much like "The Living Hompage" theory of interpretation.
1.29.2007 6:11pm
nyejm (mail) (www):
Reminds me of this picture, which I just saw yesterday.
1.29.2007 6:33pm
Toby:
Hmm, it dweeb wars, MS Explorer is the great Satan in part because it toelrates non-styrict constructions, encouraging bad page development that creates interoperability problems.

Eugen's position is the classic Linux/Mosaic one.
1.29.2007 7:48pm
CJH (mail):
Technically, wouldn't the tag mean that the shirt should stop displaying the wearer in a hateful way? :)
1.29.2007 10:01pm
Pseu (mail):
Perhaps Sen. Byrd would be an appropriate wearer of this shirt?
1.29.2007 10:38pm
Barbara Skolaut (mail):

he certainly wouldn't just wear the "[tag]" shirt without having worn "[tag]" before

Why not? He's already shown himself to be an idiot.

OK - how'd you get this post up if "h" tag is disallowed?
1.29.2007 10:49pm
TLB (mail) (www):
Actually, that shirt is from the Anarchist Collective, and it signifies the code necessary to cause both Firefox and IE to crash, allowing buffer overflow code to be run and Romanian pr0n spammers to take over your machine.
1.29.2007 11:04pm
triticale (mail) (www):
if only you and dead people understand hex, how many people understand hex?
1.29.2007 11:30pm
fooburger (mail) (www):
I've got to step in here and clear this one up.
The </hate> shirt is purely an attempt by the relative-morality folx to usurp our judgement.

By declining to fully qualify the namespace of the (local-name) "hate" element, we are being told that 'hate' means nothing unless we have a source of reference, moral in this analogy.

A deeper meaning can be ferreted from this as well by considering that we are only presented with a closing tag. A closing tag has no attributes, namespace or otherwise.
Without knowing the namespace attributes of the opening tag (or the namespace prefix and root element namespace shorthand definitions), there is no moral guidance by which to judge this 'hate' element, or its contents.

Hence, the t-shirt says "An end to hate has no meaning."


Now, if instead the t-shirt said:
<hate xmlns="--insert reference to bible or work regarding morality here--">, we could conclude that it was delimiting a set of objects regarding 'hate', as determined by the referenced text or authority of morality.

I know little of morality, democracy knows none.
1.29.2007 11:39pm
Splunge (mail):
[T]hat would be syntactically non-compliant.

No. HTML doesn't require balanced tags. Furthermore, exactly how an unmatched tag is interpreted is quite browser dependent...er, vide supra.
1.30.2007 3:27am
MattZ:
There is such a thing as being overly legalistic. . . But "syntactically non-compliant" would make a good t-shirt.

Or, for Dave Barry fans, a good band name.
1.30.2007 8:20am
Henry Woodbury (mail):
shirt {
hate: none;
}
1.30.2007 10:10am
milo_went (mail) (www):
so the t-shirt has to end hate for all time? its not enough if it just ends a little bit of hate?
1.30.2007 10:41am
Toby:
fooburger wins.
1.30.2007 1:33pm
bookmoth (mail):
I think a shirt needs the open and the close tags. Mine says:

Front: < geek

Back: < / geek

Simple.

:)

(add the close tags in your minds - I couldn't remember the ascii)
1.30.2007 11:23pm
R. G. Newbury (mail):
Regarding 'there are 10 types of people...' I think it was Mark Twain who wrote: "The world can be divided into 2 types of people; first there are those who divide the world into 2 types of people..."
1.31.2007 1:42am