A Seventh Circuit opinion remarks on what to call the country (which happens to be where I was born, though it wasn't an independent country back then):
There continues to be confusion over whether to use the article “the” in connection with “Ukraine.” In the briefs, Gutnik’s counsel uses “the Ukraine,” while the government uses “Ukraine.” Likewise, at joint remarks in January 2005, Vice President Cheney used “the Ukraine,” while President Yushchenko, the elected leader of the country, used “Ukraine.” See Press Release, Office of the Vice President, Vice President’s Remarks with Ukrainian President Yushchenko (Jan. 26, 2005) (Villa Decius, Krakow, Poland). We will use Ukraine, which is not only correct but is also preferred by Ukrainians themselves, see Associated Press, Terminology of Nationalism, N.Y. Times, Dec. 3, 1991, at A10, and is the grammatically consistent choice, see Andrew Gregorovich, Ukraine or “The Ukraine”?, FORUM Ukrainian Review No. 90, Spring/Summer 1994.
I say "The Ukraine," because that's how I learned it; I take it Cheney learned it this way, too. Interestingly, though Russian doesn't have articles such as "the," there's a similar controversy there — for most areas, you'd say something is in the area ("v Pol'she, v Angl'ii," "v" meaning "in"), but for the Ukraine, you'd say something is on it ("na Ukrain'e," "na" meaning "on"), or at least that's how you said it when I was growing up during the Soviet era. Nor was it just a country vs. area-in-a-country distinction; you'd say "v Litv'e," or "v B'elorussii," but "na Ukrain'e").
My sense is that this was because "Ukraina" wasn't just a place name, but also retained part of its non-place-name origins, in the sense of "borderland." It might also explain why Russians are quite comfortable with the "na Ukrain'e" / "the Ukraine" usage, and (as best I can tell) many Ukrainians prefer "v Ukrain'e" / "Ukraine" usage, which focuses more on the country as a country like any other rather than just the borderland of Greater Russia. I'll probably keep saying "the Ukraine," perhaps because I'm culturally much more Russian than Ukrainian (I'm still more American than Russian, but that's less relevant here), but my sense is that the tide is turning against it overtime, just as "the Lebanon" and "the Sudan" have in the past.
I grew up with The Sudan, but just plain Lebanon; why did these changes occur, but not the others mentioned above, and when?
It might, but it also might not, since we also say "Na Cube", "Na Kipre", "Na Altae" etc. Most of linguistic forms have to do with traditions that span back quite a number of years, and the big brother/little brother Russia/Ukraine controversy was simply a conveninet way to "fire up" the base.
So far, I see no signs that the Netherlands, the Philippines, the Maldives, or the United States are losing their definite article. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that those are all plural in form.
One reason I've seen for dropping the article from "the Ukraine" is that that's the preference of the Ukrainians. That strikes me as about the worst reason. I don't see what right the Ukrainians have to tell English speakers how to speak translate the name of their country into English. Unfortunately, we've meekly given in on the names of Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and may be doing the same with the Ivory Coast (Cote d'Ivoire--and notice how the definite article gets dropped there?), but I wonder where it will all end. Will the Germans start demanding that we call their country "Deutchland" or the Chinese (having won on the names of their cities) that we call theirs "Zhonngguo"?
OK, I'm finished ranting. Boy, I feel better now.
"The Netherlands" is descriptive, it means "the low countries". "The Bahamas" refers to the group of islands which includes Grand Bahama and Lesser Bahama, so it makes sense.
"The Vatican" is probably akin to "The Court of St. James" or "The White House" - the country is "Vatican City", but when referring to pronouncements made by spokesmen for the Pope, "The Vatican" is more common.
I'm not sure how "The Bronx" got started; it's Bronx County. But "broncks" may mean something in Dutch which prefers a definite article in English.
I don't know the history of "the Netherlands," but even if it has a colonial history any connotation of regionality that might once have existed has been killed by time.
Some Russian expressions like "on Cuba" or "on Cyprus" are explainable because you can be "on" an island — that's probably the same reason why "small Greek islands" like, say, Rhodes, have a particular grammatical form in Latin that other places don't have. "On Altai" is like "on the Ukraine" because of Ukraine's origins as a vague geographic area.
The same was once true of Russia — the archaic term for the area of all the old Russian city-states was "Rus'" and you would say "na Rusi." But with the modern name, "Rossiia," you say "v Rossii." Which could explain why you might say "v Belorussii" but "na Belarusi," depending on which name of the country you use.
On a different note, does anyone have any insight into why "Switzerland" has a definite article in German ("die Schweiz")?
The usual explanation is that it was the site of the Bronck’s farm (as opposed, perhaps, to Yasgur's Farm or Grandpa's Farm) but a letter to The Times (Mom, a city girl who was embarassed to have been born in and later live in The Bronx, taught me that you shouldn't have to explain which Times) by Bronx County historian Lloyd Ultan says the borough was named after the river, which fits many of the other examples given. (The river was named after Jonas.)
That river, New York City's only true river, is historically significant because the map the British used implied that it was deep enough for warships -- a plan utilizing that fact for an invasion during the Revolutionary War failed.
Most definite articles: three, The El Alamein Battle.
But I wonder if this is a back-construction of what had been an adjective, since 'Eidgenossenschaft' is feminine. Thus "the Swiss Confederation" became simply "the Swiss", since the German word for confederation is too long to say, especially if you're in southern Germany and have to talk about the place all the time. No one in New Hampshire wouold waste their time saying "The Commonwealth of Massachusetts."
Cf. Eugene's immediately subsequent ("Smackdown") post.
I've noticed that in greater Boston public school names get definite articles. While I went to IS 181 X (where the X could be read "The Bronx"), The Pablo Casals School, and I might say I went to "Pablo Casals", my daughter's "John F. Kennedy Middle School" is referred to as "The Kennedy", as in "Students from the Goodyear and the White go to the Kennedy, but those from the Shamrock and the Clapp go to the Joyce."
This sounds plausible from "Die Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft". It was derived from the name of a canton (Schwyz), although I am not sure why this one out of the three founding ones. Incidentally, you can see theories that this name in turn was derived from a Slavic word (here)
I mean, unless they do it themselves, we should respect the names that were given to them, right, Yevgeny?
I can say that, because Russian doesn't have articles and English does, Russians who don't know English that well (such as perhaps the speaker to whom Barzun was referring) won't get the articles right. Usually they omit the articles when the articles should be included, but it wouldn't be surprising to see hypercorrection, where a speaker who's too afraid of erroneously omitting an article ends up erroneously including it instead.
I would have to criticize your decision to stick with "the Ukraine." Most of the Ukrainians I know feel that it is an insult because it implies that Ukraine is still a region in Russia (akin to calling Ukraine "little Russia"). Even if grammatically this is not the case, you should keep in mind that many feel it is derogatory. Probably more so in Lviv than in Crimea.
Also, I do see that form of hypercorrection a lot. I see it more in writing than in conversation though.
Thank goodness I come from Buffalo, which never gets translated into anything else.
Just a guess, but there is a pattern: The countries without the article in German, Frankreich, Russland, etc, all had strong linguistic foundations before the Printing press. The others (Switzerland, Niederland,) were after.
It is regional. I grew up in LA where all freeways are "the 5," "the 134," etc. (we never use the "I" in front). Now I live in DC and everyone says "I-66" or plain "66." People here have insinuated that it is because we Angelenos find freeways so important that we use the honorific "the" in front. Which interestingly goes against a lot of the theories in this thread that using a "the" in front of countries is an insult.
I am merely quoting Barzun (page 66). I quoted it to get a response from someone more familiar with the Russian language than I am. Barzun is careful to state that other than usage of “the” and “a,” the translation to English was impeccable. Evidently the Russian somehow believed that the proper translation would require the definite article in English. I’m not exactly sure what Barzun means, but I think he is saying that Russians conceptualize “Atomic Energy” differently than we do in the US and so the translation would require the definite article. In other words, the difference lies not in language but in concept. Any additional insights you could provide would be apprecriated. I can provide more the text if necessary.
The Chinese already insist that we refer to Mt Everest as "Chomolungma."
I knew my history education was defective, but I totally missed that part where the English colonized Torino.
Well, when I was growing up in Arlington, everyone I knew referred simply to "Chain Bridge," "Key Bridge," or "Memorial Bridge." (We referred to "the 14th Street Bridge," "the Wilson Bridge," and "the Cabin John Bridge," however. Go figure.) Now the traffic reporters on WTOP always seem to refer to "the Key Bridge" and (I think) "the Memorial Bridge." I can't recall whether they put "the" in front of "Chain Bridge," however.
David Matthews: It was neither Smith, nor Carter, nor any of their illustrious Buckeye predeccessors in the NFL, who named our (Smith, Carter and me) Alma Mater. Rather, in the late 19th Century, the Ohio General Assembly adopted what is now Section 3335.01. of the Revised Code:
"The Ohio State University." The educational institution originally designated as the Ohio agricultural and mechanical college shall be known as "The Ohio State University."
It is worth noting that, in the era before the Revised Code (1953), Ohio corporate law had provisions which required corporate names to begin with the word: "the".
I think the Vatican is so called by analogy to the seven hills of Rome (the Palatine, the Quirinal, the Capitoline, etc.). Note that the Vatican is not one of the canonical seven—it's on the wrong side of the Tiber.
Also: "The Dominican Republic"
You mean the Crimea?
But the nation itself is properly called Vatican City, with no article. And the government is, technically and in international law, "the Holy See." The Vat makes the distinction (in Latin) thus: The Vatican is not a state, but is /has/ a state.
Sasha—Prior to its break-up, Germans spoke of the nation in quetion as "the Chechoslovakia." It doesn't work in lingustics to try to exclude a possibility because similar cases are treated in a disimilar manner. (Why do some people pronounce the 't' in 'often,' but no one pronounces it in 'soften'?—Who knows? That's just what has happened.) Natural languages are all organic, conventional, and arbitrary.
In Southern California it would be "the 40". It is shortened from "the 40 freeway".
I'm not so sure. It's the Vatican City State (Stato della Cittá del Vaticano, the State of the City of the Vatican).
You should obey your Mother out of fillial piety, even when she is wrong, as she is here.
The Times refers to the the venerable journal of London England, The Times (Milord, there are three newspaper reporters here to see you, and the gentleman from The Times).
See the online edition of The Times Style and Usage Guide under "Newspapers".
Also note that a search of "The Times" on Google yields timesonline.co.uk as its first result. Nytimes.com is second. The LA Times is being used to housebreak the puppy.
Incidentally, the Germans also say "die Ukraine."
I agree that things get the way they are in languages for lots of idiosyncratic reasons. But sometimes they get the way they are for understandable and regular reasons. Science suggests that we might at least inquire as to whether there's some general rule.
Another interesting regularity with exceptions: In French, (almost) all countries ending in "e" are feminine (la France), while all countries not ending in a "e" are masculine (le Nigeria, le Monaco, le Luxembourg). (Of course I mean the main noun of the country name, so "les Etats Unis d'Amerique" is masculine plural even though it ends with an "e"!)
The only exceptions I can recall right now: "le Mexique," "le Cambodge."
And in English at least, the Netherlands were referred to as the Low Countries (well Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands) so the "the" may be left over from that habit.
Also in French: Les Pays-Bas
I've heard it claimed that there's a similar division regarding "on Hawaii" vs. "in Hawaii" (or Hawai'i, if you're a purist). Can anyone verify this?
And IIRC, in one of Robert A. Heinlein's stories, you could tell the tourists from the natives by noting who said "on Luna" vs. "in Luna" ...
My favorite extra definite article: "the hoi polloi."
The Hague (with capital T; Dutch: originally 's-Gravenhage, officially Den Haag)
The Netherlands is often referred to by the name Holland. This is not terminologically precise, as the provinces of North and South Holland in the western Netherlands are only two of the country's twelve provinces.
Netherlands (terminology)
Netherlands (disambiguation)
link
I think it is a bit presumptuous to demand that another country call you by the "correct" name. Why can't we say Peking, Bombay, etc? Do we demand that other nations call us the "United States of America" rather than "Soyedinyonniye Ameriki Shtati", "États-Unis d'Amérique" or "Vereinigte Staaten". When speaking English, I will say Munich not Muenchen, Florence, not Firenze and Moscow and Warsaw not Moskva and Warszawa (or would that be Varshava?)
Turin: "Torino" (in Tuscan Italian) but "Turin"(in many northern Italian dialects including Torinese)
You're right about the Italian, of course. But that's not a good guide to the English, since Itlaian uses articles before nouns in so many cases where they would not be used in English. Including in the name of the Vat.
"L'onesta' e' piu'preziosa della bellezza."
"The honesty" . . . "the beauty" . . . "The City of the Vatican"
Same reason we can't say
ByzantiumConstantinople, or Leningrad, or Newtowne -- the name was officially changed. (Bombay is an anglicization of the Portuguese Bom Bahia [Good Bay] -- Mumbai is officially the new name as of the mid 1990s, although there is dispute whether it is, as claimed, related to the Mumbadevi temple, or not more than coincidence the Gujaratization of Bombay.)I agree. And I'd add "Paris" and "Berlin," just to drive the point home. We spell these exactly as do natives. But who says pah-REE? bear-LEEN?
And on this question, PLEASE HELP ME Volokhophiles! When and why did the US TV and radio news cabal decide, all at the same time, and w/o consulting us, to start calling the Russian capital MOS-coe?
I say MOS-cow. Like cow. Moo.
Not Coe, like the college in Iowa.
But listen to the news-speakers some time: With the exception of Brit Hume, they all do it. Do they think it sounds bad to have "cow" in the word? We can't use barnyard animals in geographic names? If we need to get the Cow out of Moscow, shouldn't we get the Bull out of Bolivia?
And what about Turkey?
MOS-coe does not represent a better approximation of the native pronunciation than the way that the rest of us say it. So it's not like in the 1980s, when we all-of-a-sudden started hearing news about these new countries called CHEE-lay and Nee-ha-RHAGH-wah down to the south.
So what's up with that?
Then what the heck are we supposed to call it? Bosporus City?
Anyway, best of luck in that championship game in January. Go Buckeyes.
There's a very simple explanation why its les Etats Unis d'Amerique in French — the les is modifying the plural noun Etats, not the place name "Amerique." Etats Unis is a fuller name, I suppose, more like "la Republique de France."
Two other interesting things in French. Despite that it's la France or la Republique, the French still refer to it as "la Patrie" — Fatherland, which is itself a feminine noun.
Also, Den Haag or s'Gravenhage or The Hague, which I think is masculine in Dutch, in French is rendered La Haye.
In both cases the "e" is part of a spelling convention (-que being the usual way the /k/ phoneme is spelled at the end of a word in French, with exceptions of course; and -ge being the usual terminal spelling of the "zh" sound. In the feminine country names however the "e" represents a lost "a" phoneme (Francia, Espagna, Italia etc.) and as such these nouns pattern with the old feminine first declension set from Latin.
Re: Also, Den Haag or s'Gravenhage or The Hague, which I think is masculine in Dutch, in French is rendered La Haye.
Modern Dutch has all but lost its gender distrinction between masculine and feminine, there being but one article (de) for both, and also a neuter article (het). Like English though there are still gender distinct pronouns (hij and zij)