What Are These?
The answer is here; there's a controversy about whether something like this:
should be included as well.
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Liberty, that last symbol is the pagan Pentagram, not a Muslim symbol
I think Liberty presumed that folks had read the VA site; the last two listings of available emblems are:
97 CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST (Cross &Crown) Not shown because of copyrights.
98 MUSLIM (Islamic 5 Pointed Star) Not shown because of copyrights.
No one said the Pentagram was a Muslim symbol.
Just a heads-up.
AFAIK there is no general central authority for Buddhism. There are several ancient schools or lineages, and they all tend to get along well, but there is no central governing body that I've ever heard of.
One conspicuous absence is Zoroastrian. While the religion is ancient, there are only a million or so adherents world wide. I've known a few in in the USA, so one would think the VA would have encountered at least a few. At least three of the religions represented are of 19th and 20th century Japanese origin and have comparable numbers of adherents.
There is also no Catholic symbol, as distinct from various Protestant symbols and the general Christian symbol, yet there is unquestionably a central authority that could approve one.
He's being held up because the Flying Spagetti Monster is not an approved deity.
I wish I were making this up. One might argue that he shouldn't persue twin goals, or any number of other complaints, but in a time when the military is relaxing standards to include marginally criminal and racists, is this the sort of "unit cohesion" we really need?
Does anybody know what the significance is of an Islamic "five-pointed star" as opposed to the crescent moon? Who would request the star?
I can understand a policy that refuses eg a Swastika because of its (in recent time) association with NAZIsm. Consistantly, then, I would hope they would turn away the hammer &sickle. But I see no reason to be picky about symbols that are purely religious/philosophical in nature without such connotations.
There's a strong case to be made in that direction, but as I understand it (defining religion by its ends, rather than belief in God makes much sense philosophically. Indeed definiting things by their ends if oftern the most reasonable way to define them. It results in the fewest internal contradictions.), it would pose great problems for our current jurisprudence.
Besides the various joke religions and cults, they left out a number of real ones with wide followings: agnosticism, Deism (faith of the founding fathers), Satanism, Catholicism, Taoism, Confucianism, Yezidism (kurdish religion), Zoroastrianism, Quaker, Mennonite, etc. I'm kinda surprised they caught Bahai and not Zoroastrianism.
If you add in cults and money swindling religions they forgot the Moonies, the Scientologists, the Heaven's Gaters, and probably several thousand others. They also left out several hundred protestant sects, but I personally dont understand why all the christian religions dont just use the cross.
And Fub, the Zoroastrians have differnt burial ceremonies. I'd be highly surprised if any of them ever petitioned to get a saymbol. Plus, there just aren't that many left.
Josh Jasper: what makes you think this has anything to do with liberals? Not all Wiccans need be liberal, in whatever sense of the word you may mean.
I am fairly certain it is the Druze star. Someone has posted what appears to be a photo of the symbol as it appears on a VA headstone here.
And as to why you can't just submit a B&W jpg... you would still need an approval process to weed out the marijuana leaves and middle fingers. This system automatically takes care of the vast majority of requests (I would guess) and has a system to approve new additions to the list.
No, it doesn't. That's because the other side can NEVER be kind to conservatives or libertarians, or, well, ANYone who doesn't support their extreme positions. Those people/blogs are to be bashed at every opportunity, period. Thanks for helping make that point, however cluelessly.
Wicca is a legally recognised religion. The pentagram is an uncontroversial Wiccan symbol. There isn't anything obvious to argue about.
If a symbol is arbitrarily refused anyway, maybe it would be better to ask for an inscription instead than to take the matter to court.
The government already allows vets to submit short, tasteful text inscriptions for the markers. I see no reason why the policy couldn't be extended to images.
As for the government list of recognized religions, I'm not a lawyer, but such a list strikes me as a blatant First Amendment violation. Can any con law experts explain this?
Native Hawaiians enlist in the armed services at very high rates, and some practice their chthonic religion (or a modernized version of it) still, but it doesn't have a symbol, so far as I know.
Also, what the is wrong with a pot leaf or a middle finger? If someone had the guts to fight and/or die for their country, the least we can do is let them pick what will be on their gravestone, picture and all.
I thought that the sikhism symbol was for some Klingon religion unti I saw it named on the list.
Because someone would choose a picture of a penis.
If you don't want to get into a fight over whether you can say "no," it's best not to ever start saying "yes."
求佛
千里之外 对不起我的最爱 不怕不怕 皇后与梦想 秋天不回来
The real issue is that someone feels the need to regulate the final message of someone who fought and died for our country. That many of the people under discussion were personally invested in the part about freedom of religion (much in the same way that I'm, for instance, invested in freedom of speech) is ironic, but sad.
Honestly, so what if someone would like to have a dick on their grave? Who cares? I wouldn't do that, but I want the freedom to do so, and if I gave my life to my country, I'd be pissed off if they failed to remember me as I asked. I feel like this ends up becoming an argument about what nations should embody rather than what individuals can do. The intersection of military workers is stark, but real.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/grav_mark.htm
Side note: I wonder if the copyright issue with the five-pointed star has to do with a corporate logo. Isn't the star the symbol for some oil company???
I wasn't really happy with the Scientology one there, esp. after reading the comments. One commenter suggested a volcano, and someone mentioned dollar signs. I think the logical thing then would be a volcano spewing out dollar signs. Or, since that "religion" is so sensitive about its public appearance, you would have to make the dollar signs small enough that it wasn't obvious that they weren't Thetans unless you looked real carefully.
On that sideline, I recently rewatched the South Park episode on that religion. I had forgotten why Tom Cruise spent much of the episode in the closet. Definately worth rewatching.
To put it another way: the symbol of Christianity isn't a cross because Christians "believe in" a cross; I'm not a Christian, but I still accept that the man named Jesus died on a cross. I "believe in" it in the sense that I accept that it existed at one point. The reason Christians have it as their symbol is that they believe there's a very special significance to Jesus dying on the cross.
And, I'm an Episcopalian, and I know that particular cross is neither an Episcopal symbol or special to Episcopalians in a religious way. It is a Celtic Cross, not an Episcopal one, but with its usual circle removed. The Celtic Cross is traditionally used on graves in both Ireland and England, b/c the circle symbolizes eternal life, but it a cultural/aesthetic choice, not a theological one.
I would rather have a wider range of artistic choices of crosses, rather than official logos, so I could put my favorite bible scenes in like an old Celtic Cross does. But IMHO middle-fingers etc would detract from the decorum of a cemetary and would be too offensive to other guests (and too popular wiith the anti-war movement).
IMHO if they did allow JPG's, pictures of the deceased and/or family would be the overwhelmingly most popular.
RE: Silly Wiccans
They've put their symbol in upside-down.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
But if there's one cemetery catering to the cynical and insensitive that would welcome such a marker, the VA should provide it.
Even though this *should* have been a unanimously supported decision, there's been a noticable volume of commentors who've been against the idea, and some who've been just downright nasty. Shall we take a poll and see which of them is a liberal?
His widow wanted the Wicca symbold on his grave. The Veterans Administration (for inane reasons) refused since it was not a "recognized" religion.
The dead soldier was buried at the Fernley Veterans Cemetary (close to Reno) and no symbol was placed by his name. The VA still refused to budge despite the widow's continued pleas.
Finally, the Governor of Nevada decided that the Veterans Cemetary was under HIS jurisdiction and not the VAs--and authorized the use of the symbol. Problem solved.
I'm even more surprised that Eckankar has a symbol. If they can get one, just about anyone can. The Cthulhu gravestone symbol can't be far behind...
There are plenty of libertarian Wiccans, of course. At least among the ones who understand the banning others from doing what they will "for their own good" is hypocritical.
If the proceedure in the regulations for adding symbols requires a central authority of some sort, then it's no wonder the Wiccans have been unable to get one. Forget what "should be" -- saying no when backed by the regs is a lot less dangerous for a bureaucrat than sticking his head out and saying yes. And people don't go into the VA bureaucracy because they're risk-takers.
This odd little fiasco is simply the story of the VA in microcosm, which is itself the story of the Government in microcosm. Petty socialism with its attendant lack of choice, political favoritism, stifling bureaucracy, and inferior service. We've managed to inflict this absurdity upon a captive audience - our veterans.
Anyway, I felt I should add that, while I'm an atheist, I think both the idea of a special symbol for them, and especially the specific one here, is ... daft.
But, hey, the Wiccans should get their cute little star, since it looks like any other minor new-age cult can get one.
I'm surprised it's a recognized religion, since it's a modern-day amalgam of all sorts of Native beliefs and not a direct descendant of a primitive organized church.
Back 150 years ago, most Indian tribes had their own unique religion and cosmology to go along with their own unique language. While there were many features that they shared, they weren't the same religions any more than the numerous modern Christian sects are the "same" religions.
Which brings up an interesting point: Most tribes thought of themselves as the "chosen" people. For example, alot of Indian tribal names such as Dineh (Navajo), Nee-mi-poo (Nez Perce) and Ute roughly translate into "the people", implying that members of other tribes aren't really persons.
As a Vet and a strict constitutionalist conservative I'm against any part of government determining what is or is not an appropriate symbol for a marker. I rank that right up there with them deciding what is an appropriate gun for me to own. Or how many. :)
On the other hand, according to this article: http://www.religioustolerance.org/grav_mark.htm in response to their questions a rep from the National Cemetary Adminstration said that "you may apply for a Govenment [sic] marker without a religious emblem and have an emblem added later at private expense." As libertarian I've no problem with people instead of government paying. Gets the VA entirely out of the decision process. Always a good thing, right?
I liked the Governor of Nevada's solution. Yeah State's Rights!
MichaelG, a vet and a Druid.
My Father's House has many Rooms.
My Mother's Forest has many Paths.