Much to my surprise and dismay, it appears that I have been badly misquoted by Federal Bankruptcy Judge (and former law professor) Bruce Markell regarding my testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee regarding BAPCPA. Not only did Judge Markell grossly take my words out of context in a published judicial opinion but I understand that he did the same thing in a recent speech to the a local bankruptcy lawyers association (as reported to me by a person present at the talk). Now I have tracked down the full transcript of the Hearing, so I wanted to set the record straight here.
Here's what Judge Markell wrote in his opinion in In re Kane, 336 B.R. 477 (Bankr. D. Nev. 2006) (I couldn't find the opinion on-line other than in Westlaw) at page 481:
This court concurs with Judges Mark and Riegle--the cap applies to all debtors who do not satisfy the 1,215-day rule--but for different reasons than either of them advanced. Whether the text is ambiguous or not, it is still possible to consider and implement what Congress unambiguously intended and to overcome the drafters' unfortunate choice of words. [FN7]FN7. Section 522(p) is one of many examples of poor drafting in the new bankruptcy law, which Professor Todd Zywicki assured the Senate Judiciary Committee was "fine as it is," adding, "There is no word that I would change in this particular piece of legislation." SEN. JUD. COMMITTEE, Hearing on S. 256: Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005, 109th Cong., unofficial transcript (March 10, 2005).
Judge Markell quotes me as suggesting that I somehow created a warranty with respect to the exact drafting of the statute (which was about 400 pages long as enacted). It is clear from reading the full transcript and the context in which this exchange took place that Judge Markell has crudely taken my comments out of context. In fact, my comments referred to a completely different question, namely whether the fact that the bankruptcy reform legislation had been pending for eight years at the time of the hearing meant that the draft was obsolete in light of changes in the economy and the bankruptcy system during that time. There was no discussion at all about particular drafting glitches or errors, either in Senator Feingold's questions or my responses.
Here's the relevant passages from the Hearing transcript.
SENATOR FEINGOLD: Professor Zywicki, as you know, I have mentioned that the Bankruptcy Act was fist introduced eight years ago, and you have long supported it. However, as Professor Warren has stated, the eight years since this bill was introduced have seen many developments with significant implications for bankruptcy law. Furthermore, we now have significatly more data about who files for bankruptcy and why they do than when the bill was first introduced.
Given all of the things that have changed since the original bill was drafted and given all the new information that has emerged sicne that time, is there anything about this bill that you think should be changed, or do you endorse S. 256 without any adjustments whatsoever?
There are two key contextual points here. First, the argument that "the world has changed in the past eight years" was the key procedural element of Professor Warren's testimony during this Hearing and a point made repeatedly by opponents of the bill during the Hearing and legislative process. Her testimony is available here. In particular, it was noted that during that period of time after the legislation was originally introduced (1997) had all of the big Chapter 11 "scandal" bankruptcies, such as WorldCom and Enron, which the bankruptcy reform legislation didn't address in a major way. Second, the reference to "significantly more data on who files bankruptcy" refers to the "Health Related Bankruptcies" paper that Professor Warren published right before these Hearings and which was the main substantive of the critics of the legislation during this particular Hearing. I discuss the study here and a new critique of the study is available here (subscription).
So the main attacks on the legislation during the last go-around were (1) during the intervening eight years new problems arose in the bankruptcy system that were not accounted for in the legislation, and (2) during that time new evidence of the supposed causes of bankruptcy filings had been discovered which should lead to a reconsideration of the basis for the legislation.
Here's my answer:
MR. ZYWICKI: Senator, first, let me clarify that I believe that the majority of bankruptcy filers are legitimate, honest bankruptcy filers, and I would not endorse this bill if I believed that in trying to eliminate fraud and abuse we would be harming people, the honest, innocent people for whom bankruptcy is intended.
Having said that, this bill has been around for eight years. The problems that this bill attacks have not disappeared during eight years; they have worsened during that eight-year period. There may be new abuses that have come on the scene, additional new problems that have come on the scene [TZ: Here I am referring to the possibility of further reforms in the future to deal with Chapter 11 scandals such as Enron]. But that is not, I don't believe, a reason to ignore the fact that this bill targets real problems. It targets the homestead exemption abuses, it targets fraud and those sorts of things. So this bill responds to problems that are still endemic in the system.
SENATOR FEINGOLD: What about my question? Are there any changes to the bill that need to be made at all or is it exactly the way it should be? We are making [TZ: I think this is a typo in the transcript, it should be "marking"] this thing up next week. This is it. The train is leaving the station, apparently, and there is not going to be another bankruptcy bill probably for a very long time. This is it. Should this bill be changed?
MR. ZYWICKI: I believe this bill is fine as it is.
SENATOR FEINGOLD: Not one word?
MR. ZYWICKI: There is no word that I would change in this particular piece of legislation.
SENATOR FEINGOLD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I know my time is up, but the idea that after eight years and all the economic changes in this country that there wouldn't--
CHAIRMAN SPECTER: If you need some more time, Senator Feingold, go ahead.
SENATOR FEINGOLD: Let me just say that after eight years, the notion thatt there wouldn't be anything different about the Bankruptcy Code--with all of ht eeconomic changes and dislocations, that there wouldn't be a word to change is not credible to me and is a further reason why I am very cincerned about the speed with which this bill is moving.
Thank you for the extra time, Mr. Chairman.
The reference to "economic changes and dislocations" is a third contextual point--earlier in the Hearings Senator Feingold had expressed dismay about the decline of the manufacturing sector in his home state of Wisconsin during the eight year period that the legislation was pending, which he argued meant that it was bad policy to tighten the bankruptcy laws.
Here's Senator Specter's closing remarks, picking up where Senator Feingold left off about whether the passage of time had made the bill obsolete:
CHAIRMAN SPECTER: Thank you, Seenator Feingold.
The timing on the bill has been set. We are moving ahead. This hearing was designed to give us opinions of experts in teh field on problems in teh bill. We will have many communzues from insterested citizens in all walks of life, and when the Judiciary Committee meets next Thursday to consider the bill, there will be time between that sesion and the full floor debate. So there is time for consideration of any changew taht ought to be made.
Looking at all of this in context, it is quite clear that both subjectively and objectively I was not in any way making any respresentations about the particular drafting of every single word in the bankruptcy reform legislation. This exchange is focused on one central point--should the legislation be reconsidered because of changes in the economy and bankruptcy system during the eight-year period between the time the legislation was first introduced and actually enacted. My argument is straightforward--no, even if new abuses have manifested themselves in large Chapter 11 cases, that does not change the essential need for this legislation as it applies to consumer bankruptcies because the problems and abuses were still present and weren't going to solve themselves.
There is simply no reasonable way to read this passage as suggesting that I was endorsing the drafting of every single word in the legislation (or any particular word for that matter in this particular exchange) and I know subjectively that I was not providing such a warranty. It seems equally clear that Senator Feingold was not asking that question, and moreover, no other Senators or other people testifying raised detailed and particular questions about drafting provisions of the legislation. That was not the purpose of the Hearing and it was not the purpose of my exchange with Senator Feingold.
Obviously a piece of legislation of this complexity is going to have unanticipated drafting problems as applied to particular factual circumstances. Heck, the 1978 Code was declared unconstitutional after it was enacted. I certainly had no anticipation that legislation would turn out to be perfect in every possible term. But that wasn't the question I was answering.
To suggest, as Judge Markell does, that I was vouching for the drafting of the exact language of the bankruptcy reform legislation seems grossly sloppy about reading the proper context here at best. At worst, this is a willful distortion of what I said. Perhaps Judge Markell was saimply misled by someone else who excerpted my quote out of context. I'm sorry that Judge Markell's misuse of my quote made it into a published opinion in the first place. At the very least, I hope he will refrain from using this noncontextual quote in the future.
When you say you wouldn't change a word, I would assume you meant, you wouldn't change a word for any reason. So, for example, if you thought one section was poorly written, I would have assumed that you would have said so, qualifying your answer as, "I don't think changed conditions warrant altering a single word, although I have other reservations about some of the wording." But I think either interpretation of your words is reasonable.
Having heard your explanation, I do see what you intended to get at, but if you would have provided me your testimony earlier today and asked whether the judge misrepresented you, I likely would have said no.
If you didn't read all the words and agree with them, you should have said so, but you didn't. You had one chance to tell congress your opinion and you used it to rubber stamp the whole thing.
It is clear that had you given what you now admit to be the more complete and honest answer - "There may be drafting issues or other problems with the language of the bill, but I don't believe one word has to be changed merely because of the passage of time" - the Senator would have responded with something like "Well, let's talk about the drafting errors," and would have used that as a pretext to attempt to delay passage of a bill that you clearly wanted passed. So instead, you gave an unqualified answer, and like it or not, it's the answer you gave.
But reading through the transcript of the hearing, I would have believed your statement "There is is no word that I would change in this particular piece of legislation", meant exactly that.
After reading your explanation and rereading the transcript a couple times, I believe it is reasonable for an impartial party to come to the conclusion that you were happy with all parts of the bankruptcy bill and didn't think any part needed clarification.
Fair enough. Of course, one should not say of legislation one is not completely satisfied with that: "There is no word that I would change in this particular piece of legislation." Got that? Good.
My understanding (which could be wrong) is that published opinions can be corrected to some extent, at least before they appear in the printed volumes. If you can't find the opinion anywhere except Westlaw, that suggests that you still have time to make your case where it matters.
My reading of this is that Zywicki's attitude was that he would rather see the bill pass than have it go back for more amendments. And if I am right, I see nothing wrong with the judge's citation of his testimony.
However, if one makes the assumption that the Senator was asking an intelligent question not trying to trip one up in a transparent rhetorical trick, the standard thing we do when interpreting unclear statements, we can't read her as asking the literal question. Of course it would be absurd that there isn't *one* word that could be slightly improved in clarity or improve ultimate results.
Trying to be charitable to the Senator, i.e., assume she isn't engaging in a stupid rhetorical tricks, the best interpratation is probably that she was asking you if you knew of any *particular* place that you would change. Not whether the bill was utterly perfect as written.
At the very least it would have been better for the judge to make the context clear, a context which would have revealed your intent was clearly not to claim total perfection even if that is the most obvious reading of the words. So I think it wasn't the best this judge could have done but it does seem within the range of reasonableness.
It is like when someone says that "Michael Jorden could jump 100 feet into the air." and their friend replies, "You mean he could literally jump 100 feet?" and the person replies, "Yes, he could literaly jump 100 feet."
A straightforward reading of the words, modulo sarcasm, would say that this person was literally claiming Jordan could jump 100 feet into the air. However, assuming we know they have some basic grasp of how big a foot was and the limits of physiology it would be absurd to suggest this represented their belief. They are just being hyperbolic.
Hence why I think it is a little (but not much) unfair for the judge to seem to suggest you really do think every word is correct.
Max Gardner
When asked:
SENATOR FEINGOLD: What about my question? Are there any changes to the bill that need to be made at all or is it exactly the way it should be? We are making [TZ: I think this is a typo in the transcript, it should be "marking"] this thing up next week. This is it. The train is leaving the station, apparently, and there is not going to be another bankruptcy bill probably for a very long time. This is it. Should this bill be changed?
MR. ZYWICKI: I believe this bill is fine as it is.
SENATOR FEINGOLD: Not one word?
MR. ZYWICKI: There is is no word that I would change in this particular piece of legislation.
You should have made use of that opportunity to point out the completely inept drafting of the bill. As one judge stated at a CLE, if one of his associates had produced this work product, the associate would be out of a job.
Finally, your statement: "Obviously a piece of legislation of this complexity is going to have unanticipated drafting problems as applied to particular factual circumstances" grossly understates the poor drafting of this legislation.
Mark
It seems to me that the commentators--as well as bankruptcy practitioners and judges at large--are upset at the policy choices that Congress made in BAPCPA. Having lost the legislative battle, one of their only hopes to keep the issue alive is to paint the statute as hopelessly flawed (which it is not). In a perfect world, we could spend as much time as we wanted on legislation to resolve every drafting issue. Unfortunately, that's not how the real world works. Spending any more time on BAPCPA to get it "perfect" might've spelled its doom politically.
The Bankruptcy Code has never been a model of draftsmanship, and what flaws and inconsistencies in it have been addressed and resolved by courts over time. The same will be true of BAPCPA--unless activist judges violate their judicial oaths by willfully misinterpreting it to undermine its purposes.
Those who enter the public sphere have the duty to clearly communicate what they mean. You cannot simply expect all of us to do the mental gymnastics necessary to provide your statements with meaning that just simply is not immediately apparent.
This was a horrendous peice of legislation. It's premises are suspect, it motivations ugly, and it has more drafting screw-ups than anything I've read from Congress in a long time. Not to mention the Constitutional challenges that are mounting up ...
You were about the only Bankruptcy expert in the entire USA (not counting credit card lobbyists) who actually supported this legislation. Surely you knew your reputation was going to be linked with BAPCPA's fate?
If you're trying to distance yourself from the legislative trainwreck that is shaping up, that's understandable, but I don't think this post is going to do the trick.
He is not the only judge bad-mouthing the law. Hundreds of judges, trustees, bankruptcy attorneys and a large number of law school professors wrote extensively on what was wrong with that bill. Sen Feingold happens to be my Senator and I do not like him, but unlike the Republican Senator from Wisconsin who voted for the bill, he opposed both the intent and way the bill was rammed through. Your characterization only lent support for the effort and if you don't like the result, well, you are not one of the thousands of debtors that have to deal with it.
We were one of the voices in the wilderness shouting that the law was bad. From my blog and on my partners law office website , we tried to warn people.
Needed or not (and we didn't think it was needed to address the issues you so broadly claimed needed addressing), the law is a non-functioning nightmare.
Two issues most clearly stand out. Bankruptcies are down almost 80% nationwide - as intended by the bill - but foreclosures are up as much as 50% in some areas (68% in our district), so the reasons for people to file have not changed.
Second, the attorney fees, court filing fees (slated to go up AGAIN on April 9th), and the cost of credit counseling have made it very difficult for the people 'least likely to be affected by the law' to actually afford adequate representation.
Proclaim 'out of context' all you want, the judges and attorneys that have to deal with what you considered fine legislation for the next 20-30 years will remember your contribution for a long time. And if they immortalize you in their decisions, well, what more could an attorney want!?
You made an unqualified but unintentional endorsement of every word in that bill. When you said, "There is no word that I would change in this particular piece of legislation," people are entitled to take you at your word.
It is far from "quite clear" that you were only endorsing part of the bill. "There is no word that I would change" seems pretty clear to me, but not in the way you meant it, even when looking at the context.
It's also unfortunate that, so far, you have been unwilling to take responsibility for your error in making such a sweeping endorsement. Given your previous history of thoughtful posts, I think you will eventually figure that out.
You should write a clarified post that takes responsibility for your failure to say what you meant. And you should apologize to Judge Markell, both publicly and privately.
Good lawyers know to be extremely cautious about making sweeping statements like: Of course, some lawyers are so cautious that they never commit to anything, but that's another problem.
All of us in practice for more than a few years have had the experience of having incautious words come back to haunt us. Welcome to the club. All you need to do to move on is to apologize to the judge (and maybe your readers).
I too thought it was a bit odd that the judge chose to take a backhand at Prof. Zywicki in a footnote. I think that it illustrates just how ticked-off bankruptcy judges everywhere are about this ridiculous law. But it still seems unprofessional for a judge to be getting his "revenge" in an official opinion.
But I don't think he "grossly mischaracterized" the statements in question.
Senator I like the bill the way it is and I think you should vote for it. But you and I have been dealing with legislation for years now. We both know that Congress never passes a perfect bill because it can't be done. There will be problems of interpretation with this bill. There will be seeming inconsistencies. There will be--I hate to say it, but it's true--there will be things which, in retrospect look an awful lot like typoes.
But that is life with legislation and taking all that into accocunt, on this one I think the drafters did a good job. I hope you pass it warts and all, because it isn't going to get any better.
Yet the testimony is that of an advocate with a case to plead. Advocacy is fine but there were a lot of advocates out there already. Regardless of your position on this bill, it would probably be a greater public service for someone in the professor's position -- clearly he has substantial credibility with the bill's supporters -- to have worked to change the horribly written portions of this legislation before it came to a final vote. At the very least to avoid having the national legislature made the brunt of jokes because it, for example, cross-references non-existent provisions.
Of course, I don't know what to say if the professor was called in to apply his expertise to proofing the bill and the final product in fact reflects his best efforts. Having committing drafting errors myself, I would cast no stones -- only suggest denying such mistakes is not conducive to learning and growth, either.
For the reasons I've explained in several posts, I think the professor's post is unprofessional and just plain wrong. But he has not been dishonest.
The professor also deserves credit for letting his critics post very harsh criticisms.
I second that; we should give credit where it's due. Zywicki has not (so far as I can tell) deleted any comments. I have to say that allowing such harsh and pointed criticism is admirable.
There seem to be two primary disagreements with him:
(1) That BAPCPA is a bad law, it hurts low-income filers, etc. This may very well be correct and although my knowledge of bankruptcy law is limited to one class in law school, from what I know I mostly agree with the criticisms of BAPCPA. But this is in no way a reasonable response to Professor Zywicki's argument that he was misquoted unless you subscribe to the view that anything goes in an argument against political adversaries.
(2) The second one is closer to being a legitimate disagreement: that what Professor Zywicki literally said was that he wouldn't change a word of the bill, so Judge Markell wasn't misquoting him. I assume that every person who has said this also thinks that President Bush was correct to lambast John Kerry for saying that he voted for the Iraq appropriation bill before he voted against it. Because, after all, that's literally what Kerry said (and that's why it made for such an effective campaign commercial). It's my belief that, that while I'm no fan of Senator Kerry, this quote was stripped wildly out of context to the point where it was a gross distortion of what he said. Now maybe all of you folks would say the same thing about Kerry that you say about Zywicki: he should be more careful about what he says and no one has an obligation to keep quotes in context.
I'll finish with what I pointed out before: Judge Markell (and Senator Feingold) both knew what Professor Zywicki was testifying about - the substance of the bill, not the drafting. Senator Feingold asked a question that didn't make much sense given the context and Professor Zywicki answered it assuming the context was still the substance, not the drafting. Because Judge Markell must have known this, I agree that it was tantamount to a misquote. It, to me, is not a defense of Judge Markell that he disagrees politically with the professor.
I can now see from the context what the professor had meant to say, but I don't think the judge's comments were an unfair interpretation.
The problem is that Sen. Feingold went from asking for a general endorsement of the bill to a specific endorsement of each word:
If the exchange had ended with "this bill is fine as it is," the professor's criticisms might be fair. But there is a world of difference between "this bill is fine" and "[t]here is no word I would change. . . ."
My guess is the next time the professor testifies in Congress, he'll be more careful with his words. That's a lesson all of us practicing attorneys eventually learn the hard way. When a sentence from my brief made it into a state supreme court opinion, some lower courts and prosecutors started using it for something different than what I had meant. It was quite an experience to hear a prosecutor unknowingly quote my own words against me in an oral argument. Things like that happen in practice.
Welcome to the club, Professor Zywicki.
Finally, the last point in your post is exactly what I said in (2) above - too bad, who cares what the context was, be more careful with your words next time. That's a legitimate argument but I find it unpersuasive as a defense of Judge Markell.