disqualify someone from serving on a state hate crimes commission? You would think so, but, at least in Illinois, you'd be wrong: "On Wednesday, [Governor] Blagojevich expressed support for Claudette Marie Muhammad, director of community outreach for the Nation of Islam, a black Muslim group led by the Rev. Louis Farrakhan... Muhammad recently invited commission members to attend a Farrakhan speech in which he accused 'Hollywood Jews' of 'promoting lesbianism, homosexuality' and other 'filth.'"
UPDATE: In answer to readers' comments, racism is central to NOI ideology, not peripheral. Just do a Google search on "Nation of Islam" "racism" and "yacub" or "yakub." And I find the analogy to a Boy Scouts leader extremely imprecise. The Scouts ban gays (and atheists, and girls), certainly, but I have never seen an example of the Scouts preaching hate toward gays (or atheists, or girls). A governor could nevertheless use his discretion not to appoint a Scout leader to any civil rights-related position, of course.
It'd be a shame to have a hate crimes commission composed of people who have never considered a hate crime. Think of the errors that might result from inexperience and lack of understanding!
I'm sure that's what motivated the UN to put Libya and others such on the human rights committee. There's no substitute for experience!
I'm asking a serious question, because I honestly don't know all that much about the Nation of Islam except for the speeches that Farrakhan has made, and I'm a bit concerned about the rumblings of Democrats trying to paint Wallace (newest CA5 nominee) as a racist because he worked for Trent Lott once.
DB or other commenters, please tell me more about the Nation of Islam and why we should question Claudette Muhammad's ability to serve on a hate crimes commission. I'm not doubting the argument, but I'd to see it made in a bit more detail.
At least for me, the most surprising one was:
I'll look forward to seeing what others post.
Dave
Um, the "long-awaited 'Messiah' of the Christians" was Jesus of Nazareth. Perhaps these folks meant that W. Fard was the long-awaited Messiah of the Jews. We Christians already have a Messiah, and we like him just fine, thank you very much.
More seriously, are the members of the Nation of Islam actually engaging in hate crimes when they advocate racial separatism and discuss Not Noi's in uncomplementary terms? Are speech and opinion hate crimes? Should they be? Wasn't the original idea behind "hate crimes" to add some extra punishment to a regular actual crime that was performed out of some racial etc. hatred?
When you look at it that way, then perhaps Claudette Marie Muhammad could be a decent choice, as someone that truly understands that even offensive speech should protected. I might even be able to make the argument with a straight face.
I happen to think the idea that Hollywood has a coordinated, monolithic agenda is silly. I also think the idea that if they do have an agenda, they should be bound to create art/entertainment that speaks to its adversaries is equally silly. Neither of those is my point.
Let's call a spade a spade. All the O'Reilly types think - specifically - that Brokeback Mountain "promotes" homosexuality.
Say what? Have you seen the movie? How does it promote homosexuality? Through the mere act of depicting it? If that's the argument, boy, that's some stupid, stupid stuff. And if the point isn't that the mere act of depicting homosexuality encourages it, is the point based on the movie's plot? I mean the plotline more or less IS the modern social conservative take on homosexuality - not a crime, but we shouldn't encourge it as a lifestyle for others because bad things happen to them. The ENTIRE MOVIE is about 2 characters who aren't good and aren't evil in any way traceable to their sexuality, but that are more or less miserable for the course of their lives because of the various romantic, social, and economic tolls that their homosexuality takes on them.
Honestly, what are these people talking about? I don't get it. If somebody has a clear explanation for how that movie "promoted homosexual lifestyles," please by all means explain it to me. I'm a fairly literate guy - I dig on Cervantes, Homer, David Foster Wallace, Alan Bloom, Pynchon, De Toqueville, and Salman Rushdie - what on earth kind of reading is that of a fictional text?
The fact that we have hate crimes commissions is problematic in itself; perhaps it is best that such people sit on them, would you prefer a feminist or a gay rights activist who would actually try to enforce things?
I think the idea is that if an institutionally appropriate body has made a decision that such a commission should exist, it's pretty dumb to populate it members that would sabatoge the mission for which the commission was constituted.
Or, to use the term many conservative Christians prefer, the NOI opposes both the Jewish and the gay "lifestyle" while conservative Christians opose only the gay "lifestyle."
Hasn't the Pope himself said that gays are "inherently disordered"? What's worse about the NOI's rhetoric? Would you exlude all Catholics from the commission?
Also, wouldn't an anti-gay Orthodox Jew also be excluded from the committee based on your view?
jk lol...
on brokeback mountain not being pro-homosexual: (1) the characters are not just gay, but gay cowboys, and the cowboy is a seminal manly character in american cinema; (2) the message cannot be isolated from the way it has been presented in the media. hardly anyone actually saw the movie, it was a symbol.
The whole idea of laws against "hate crimes" is itself pernicious in that it becomes easier to criminalize the underlying beliefs. NOI's brand of bigotry is offensive but it's not criminal. It's pretty clear that the view of the commission member who resigned is that NOI's belief set is an insipient hate crime. Doesn't anyone else see this as a problem?
Perhaps we ought to look at the individual rather than the group. The Chicago Sun-Times recommends this course of action:Of course this becomes more difficult if some members leave the commission rather than serve with someone with whom they disagree.
Is it possible that this understates the relevant differences between the Nation of Islam and conservative Christianity? I was under the impression that the Nation of Islam is more prone to advocate violence against those it believes are immoral. I don't think you'll see many conservative Christians advocating physical violence against homosexuality, but it's my impression that the Nation of Islam has advocated violence against Jews. I suppose I could be mistaken about my understanding of the nation of Islam, though, as I'm not entirely sure where I've gotten these impressions.
I don't deny that many/most conservative Christians believe homosexuals engage in an immoral act. But, I think that there's a difference in believing that someone engages in an immoral act and advocating violence against them.
MATTHEW SHEPARD!!!!
Also, I'm not familiar with all the details of Matthew Shepard. I realize that he was brutally attacked and killed because of his homosexuality. Did his attackers claim to be conservative Christians and/or was there advocating of such violence by conservative Christians before or after the attack?
I realize that people have been physically attacked as a result of their homosexuality. I just don't think it's accurate to say that the violence has been advocated by most conservative Christians.
look, how many times do we have to hear about matthew shepard? I was being sarcastic. if you want to see what I'm talking about, go here.
it's an article by an gay organization called soulforce that is going to visit the "anti-gay" college I attend soon. the article is titled, "What the Bible Says, and Doesn't Say -- About Homosexuality". But guess what? On page 5, the author starts in on matthew shepard. now what does that have to do with the Bible?
Blagojevich's choice may have been foolish, but Claudette Muhammad must be judged solely on what she herself has said and done, rather than on anything said or done by any other member of her creed. Period.
How is it any less bad for the Pope to call gays "inherently disordered" than it is for an NOI leader to call Jews "filth"?
How is it any less bad for Christian leaders to condemn Hollywood for "promoting lesbianism, [and] homosexuality" than it is for NOI leaders?
BTW, the definition of "fairness" is always subjective. The Nation of Islam members implicated in trashing liquor stores in California may have believed they were acting as fairly as the Federal Government feels it is acting fairly in confiscating marijuana from chemotherapy patients.
A problem with appointing a member of such a group to a position of prominence is that it may be taken as a tacit approval of their definition of fairness.
Right now we are starting the retrial of Andrea Yates for killing her 5 children. Arguably, she killed them out of her twisted sense of love. Nonetheless, but for double jeopardy concerns, I would support the death penalty for her.
Apparently, many on this string believe that viewing homosexual activity as sinful equates with bigotry. So apparently, only people who gleefully approve of all fornication must be excluded from "hate crime" commissions. Sounds more like an athiest swingers convention to me.
Actually, per Sattazhan v. Pennsylvania et al, I don't think there are double jeopardy concerns, at least in a legal sense. If you want a new trial, you get one, with the attendant risk of greater punishment.
Most people, including most commenters on this thread, think "hate crimes" are those committed on some sort of distaste for a particular group of people. That is, in fact, how most statutes are constructed. However, this definition does not get at the real motivation behind attacks on minority populations.
Hate crimes are crimes of opportunity. A group that has less power is less likely to be able to effectuate a response in the justice system to crimes committed against them.
Consider evidence that the rate of lynchings in the Reconstruction South went up and down as it became more or less necessary to control economic interests such as land and labor. The fact that whites could get away with violence against made them quite likely to commit violence without regard to hate and simply to exploit an opportunity.
Consider also that crimes against gay men are often motivated by opportunity. Groups of men may engage in "gay bashing" violence to establish status benefits within that group. Robberies and other financial shakedowns are also common where the perpetrator knows his or her gay victim, and realizes that this victim would rather part with their property than report the crime to the police.
In both cases described above, researchers indicate that it is not necessary for perpetrators to feel animus towards the group they are attacking--they may "hate" blacks or gays, they may not. The only thing tying hate crimes perpetrators together is a willingness to exploit supposed vulnerabilities of a minority group.
I'm not sure if this illuminates the original question on whether someone associated with a group advocating hate should be on a hate crimes board. I do think we should let her speak for herself and then make a decision. Regardless of your opinion on this woman, I am curious if the conversation changes when one realizes hate speech and hate crimes may not be motivated by the same factors.
That still sounds like a bigot to me.
'"
Is it just me, or does it seem a little suspicious when a guy who surrounds himself with a cadre of tall, muscular "bodyguards" comes out so strongly against homosexuality? Seems like he's protesting a bit much. By the way, he refers to his always impeccably tailored protectors as "the fruit of Islam".
Apparenly Illinois has a track record?
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=277685&page=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard
As for the Nation of Islam, the goal posts are not being moved. The NOI is different from Conservative Christians for a number of reasons, the most relevant to this topic being:
1. Conservative Christians are not all members of one organization with one credo and one leader. There is a gigantic difference between the thought processes of a monolithic, semi-fascist organization and a multitude of sects, churches, individual prayer groups, etc. There can be no comparison between the way beliefs are disseminated and shared in the NOI and among Conservative Christians. Neither can there be any legitimate comparison to the homogenaity of beliefs of the NOI and the millions of Conservative Christians.
2. The NOI advocates violence against Jews and gays to this day. While they certainly don't do anything about it on a large scale, there is potential for violence on an individual level every day. There is always the threat of violence in the air when they gather in groups, and I speak from personal experience. While there are Conservative Christian individuals that commit violent acts against homosexuals, there is no evidence that homosexuals have been threatened with violence when staying at the same hotel as a Conservative Christian convention, or walk into a Conservative Christian (or Catholic) church. Pope Benedictus XVI would not direct his bodyguards to beat the crap out of a Jew or a homosexual.
There is no comparison between the two.
I thought that the movie existed at all is that it was a great story that the producers felt must be told. Why assume there is some conspiracy by the 'intellectual fascim of the elite left? What is an 'elite left'? Who are the 'elite left'. I would suppose there is an 'intellectual fascim of the elite right' that created created 'The End of the Spear'?
Whether this woman should be given a discretionary political appointment presents a different legal question, of course, but it is not a different question as far as fairness is concerned. Perhaps the appointing authority is not as ready as Bernstein to jump on the guilt by association bandwagon. Perhaps the appointing authority feels it is more important to look at the conduct of the woman herself rather than that of the Nation of Islam as a whole. Perhaps her membership in the Nation of Islam has been accompanied by work against hate and perhaps she is superbly qualified to sit on the hate crimes commission. I doubt the Nation of Islam, unlike some other groups like the Klan, is as monolithic in its membership's views as Bernstein appears to believe.
When racial, ethnic, religious or sexual status is the motivation for the crime, it is a hate crime deserving increased penalty in my book. The status that is hated puts the group member at increased risk of being a victim of assault or related crimes. Crimes based on race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation strike a particularly harmful blow to the social order in a society that has even a modest commitment to equality and fair treatment. Condemnation for status is at least as bad as condemnation by association.
As to the larger issue of a "hate crime" commission and the concept of hate crimes, it is important to examine the implications of that thinking, for example:
Supporting a Nazi Lover
It is a slippery legal and political slope.
Look, I have no problem in saying that this woman should not be considered for the appointment if she herself engaged in hate speech. But produce some evidence she did, rather than merely relying on her membership in the Ku Klux Klan or on her post as minister of protocol, whatever that is, for the group. Surely that's not asking too much in terms of fairness?
So, granting that the NOI is violent, would you find the following candidate acceptable for a hate crimes commission:That still sounds like a bigot to me.
Nrrn There, Done That, I pointed out in my original message above that I doubted that the views of Nation of Islam members were as monolithic as those of groups like the Klan. Even if I'm wrong on that, the U.S. Supreme Court required actual proof of individual subscription to the unlawful goals of the Communist Party because mere membership was not enough. And as I pointed out in my second message, the result might be predictable, but do the investigative work anyway to find individual guilt for the sake of fairness; it's the American way.
As to this case, if the person is an official of an organization that makes definite statements that are indisputably hateful and you are an official who is responsible for the statements that organization makes, then you should not be named to this type of commission. If you are a member of the organization and are not responsible for the statements of that organization, then the appointment should be based on you yourself and what you have to say. There is a difference between being a spokesman for such an organization and being a member. Your reason for being a member
I have a problem with "hate crimes" largely because I think that violent crimes should be punished quite seriously, regardless of whether the motivation was wallet envy or racial hatred. It is because liberals have a hard time with the idea of punishing violent criminals that they decided that there needed to be a special enhancement when the criminal does it for the "wrong" reasons.
For example, if you plan going somewhere to attack a complete stranger and he dies, I see no reason for you to ever leave prison. You are clearly someone too dangerous to leave in civilized society. Because liberals oppose long sentences for violent crimes*, they have to have a special reason when a criminal attacks one of their pets.
* Before I get accused of a strawman argument: I spent a couple of years writing letters to California legislators trying get the penalty for rape increased from its laughable three year minimum, and the liberals were just full of excuses for why this was a bad idea. Richard Alan Davis was the poster boy for liberalism's notion of appropriate sentencing. California's liberals do believe in long sentences--but for gun control violations. When they passed the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act, the minimum sentence for sale of one of the specified weapons was four years in prison--or longer than the sentence for forcible rape.
The goal of those who want homosexuality criminalized are:
1. Make a statement about how the society feels about homosexuality. You might find that offensive; I find it silly. But it no sillier than many liberal efforts to "send a message," such as gun control laws that are unenforceable.
2. Put homosexuals in a position where they feel a need to exercise a little discretion--like not having sex in public view, or using the public library for meetings of the North American Man-Boy Love Association.
Was the guy arrested in his home -- not in public view, not in a public library -- in the Lawrence case not exercising sufficient discretion?
2. I hope that you will agree that the circumstances of the Lawrence case are a one in a million shot? A false report of a weapons violation, the police show up at the house, find the door unlocked, and happen on two guys having sex. Why, if I didn't know better, I would wonder if this was a setup, to have a case to try, since prosecutions under the Texas sodomy law were almost unknown.
http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32184 - I don't know how to publish links, but that's the Kiwi Camara Article YLJ just took for its symposium. For those who don't know, Kiwi is the harvard student that referred to "nigs" in the notes he published online while in law school. He is also a prodigy, the youngest Harvard grad ever to graduate.
http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32184
Blago also has close ties to another powerful and questionable group:
http://michellemalkin.com/immigration/2005/11/18/04:54.pm
Search at my site for more on him and them.
Also, rising Democratic star Antonio Villaraigosa is a former member of the racial separatist group MEChA, as are several other Mexican-"American" Democrats such as Fabian Nunez, Gil Cedillo, and Raul Grijalva. That should be even more worrying, considering that there's a foreign government involved and those people hold political office.
As to the first, of course, it must be pointed out that society at large probably doesn't disfavor homosexuality to the degree that it did the halcyon days of the 19th century for which proponents of such laws yearn. Brown v Bd. aside, the SC is a lagging indicator, not a leading one, w/r/t public mores.
But if the first stated goal is at least arguable, the second is laughable. One hardly need criminalize sodomy to put people in a position to where discretion is necessary. Public lewdness laws apply equally to all, regardless of sexual orientation, and provide all the in terrorem effect necessary. Some homosexual men engage in George Michael-esque public sex; in such cases, the police need not resort to sodomy laws, nor do they. Similarly, many heterosexual men engage in Hugh Grant-esque publciu sex. And I'm guessing the "problem" of public sex is hardly of a magnitude to require even the police attention it does get.
Finally, why the attempt to tar all homosexuals with the NAMBLA brush? Fallacious argument of that sort would get you a big red F in a freshman logic course.
I am just waiting for DAs to start enhancing rape convictions through hate crime charges. After all, most serial rapists really do hate women. I am just surprised that the feminists haven't started pushing this yet.
Part of the absurdity is that a lot of crimes of violence are hate crimes. I hate my wife's lover, so I kill him when I catch him in bed with my wife. At that point in time, I probably hate her too, so kill her also. Hate crime? Or just the usual 2nd Degree Murder?
The analogy I see that fits this best is the one where an open Klan member is appointed to the commission. Of course, the Klan isn't anymore as outspoken in its calls to violence as the NoI is, and hasn't really been in my lifetime (or at least since Superman exposed all the Klan secrets on TV). But somehow, calls of Black on White violence are different from calls of White on Black violence, and any resulting violence is somehow magically immune from hate crime statutes (the reality, of course, is that prosecutors are perfectly willing to swing either way here).
Gov. Blogo is a typical unprincipled, careerist Illinois politician(like his predecessor "Republican" Gov. Ryan, currently on trial on corruption charges). Like Chicago Tribune columnist John Kass says: "In Illinois the party labels are for the suckers". The GOP recently had one decent officeholder(US Sen. Peter Fitzgerald) and the GOP "leadership" itself warned him not to run for reelection. Unwilling to go up against the wheeler-dealers of both parties Fitzgerald took the "hint".
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