Features
Stuff from us
Academic Legal Writing: personalized bookplates
Sources on the Second Amendment
More Clues on the NSA Surveillance Program:
Over at Reason Online, Julian Sanchez draws out more details on the NSA domestic surveillance program from Russell Tice.
|
ContactSubscribeFeaturesStuff from usAcademic Legal Writing: personalized bookplates Sources on the Second Amendment BlogrollArchives |
On a more interesting note, however, I haven't seen any discussion here of the Jason Leopold story that the NSA was doing warrantless wiretaps of Americans before 9/11, which clearly precedes any justification based on the AUMF.
But he throws out a term (Bit Error Rate) in the interview - which has a quite specific meaning in data and telecom - where the context is not at all consistant.
IOW, he's tossing out buzzwords to impress, without really understanding them.
Marketing guys *always* get it wrong. :-)
email is humand readable - aloud
The occasional reading between the lines implies a little man looking to do something big. For example, he says, "You need to have some huge computers to crunch that kind of stuff."
Anyone actually working with computers these days, esp with large volumes of data, knows full well that you use lots of small computers, lots and lots of them. It's no big deal, but if you were really working with such a system, you'd know this instinctively and your phraseology would indicate as much. Huge computers? That's the old Collossus/HAL bogeyman brought back outta the trunk in the attic.
None of which is definitive, but he keeps saying that such and such "could" be done, not that it is being done. If this is all he's ever gonna say, then perhaps he's best ignored lest he drown out legitimate information.
If he has more to say, for real, he should dial up the Senate Intelligence Committee and tell it to them. Otherwise, no more, please.
I read Jason Leopold's article, and the document to which he linked. I could not find a shred of support for his lead sentence:
Rather, the document does say that "American communication and targeted adversary communication will coexist" on the same global networks. It adds that "availability of critical foreign intelligence information will mean gaining access in new places and in new ways." And as one of several "major policy issues," the report says, "To perform both its offensive and defensive missions, NSA must 'live on the network.'"
Altogether, that is essentially a technical tautology coupled with an undisclosed policy proposal. No wonder it is declassified!
While this document is consistent with what Risen and the NYT have reported, it does not seem to break any new ground. I would be surprised if James Risen did not have an old copy of it in a file cabinet.
What is truthout.org? It does seem to be rather polemic. Leopold's "story" would have been spiked by editors at any reputable news organization.
I found the "declassified document" mildly interesting, but not especially newsworthy. Leopold does not really explain what it is or where it comes from. I surmise that it supposed to be an NSA briefing document for the 2001 Bush transition team.
When major controversies such as the NSA surveillance reported by the NYT become hot issues, Washington typically is awash is chaffe. This, I think, is an example.
I don't think anyone has proposed that the privacy ight defined by the 1965 Griswold v Connecticut case, about which Judge DeMoss was writing, has much to do with the NSA surveillance controversy.
To the extent that individual rights are at issue, the Fourth Amendment seems more relevant directly. (Note that not all legal issues involve that amendment. There also are statutory issues of FISA, criminal law and the AUMF, and possibly constitutional issues of separation-of-powers.)
As you correctly point out, the privacy right defined in Griswold has much to do with Roe v. Wade. But then, that is another matter for another thread.
I agree that DeMoss' article is directed more towards Griswold, and therefore Roe, but the right to privacy is a fundamental part of the argument underlying NSA surveillance and the statutory issues of FISA, criminal law and what powers the AUMF does or does not confer on the executive branch. It was toward that end that I was trying, maybe not adequately, to direct discussion. What effect, if any, would such a national referendum, depending upon the wording, have upon the NSA issue ? Would it be retroactive ? Wouldn't such a referendum, depending on the results, have significant impact on future rulings across a broad spectrum of the Supreme Court and Appeals Courts?
I think that you have misread the document. Certainly, it does not as Leopold says demonstrate that the NSA was spying before 9/11, yet it does imply it. Here is a site for the Declassified document. It refers to the need to surveil "U.S. information infrastructure" and the "global net" upon which this infrastructure is based. The NSA document insists that they will respect the Fourth Amendment, but they are currently insisting that the NSA program in question respects the Fourth Amendment. So, it is difficult to make the broad claim that Leopold makes, but it is also important to see the possible problems that could result from this document. Finally, Leopold's claim that Bush authorized the spying before 9/11 is ridiculous. This was document given to the White House not the other way around.
I would also like to congratulate GW on its National Security Archive that holds this document. GO COLONIALS!
KMAJ:
The NSA spying only affects the 'right to privacy' as far as that right is related to the Fourth Amendment. When the Supreme Court said that electronic surveilance required a court order, they did so using the rights under the Fourth Amendment and not the 'right to privacy,' which wasn't recognized in this case but later. I don't think that the 'right to privacy' has anything to do with this case, but I would debate the judge's article in another thread about the 'right to privacy.'
Noah
The Fourth Amendment in no way depends on the right of privacy defined in Griswold, although the "penumbra" of the latter may depend in part on the Fourth Amendment.
Griswold's 'right to privacy" thus is in no way "a fundamental part of the argument underlying NSA surveillance and the statutory issues of FISA, criminal law and what powers the AUMF does or does not confer on the executive branch," as you suggest.
No suggestion for a referendum -- whether serious or tongue-in-cheek -- need be made for the Fourth Amendment. That matter was quite settled when the Bill of Rights was ratified.
I can read into the document that the NSA wanted policies that would enable tapping global communications, and proposed doing so in novel ways. I cannot read into it an implication that surveillance for which FISA warrants was required was actually being performed illegally before 9/11.
Jason Leopold is best known as the 'journalist' who was slammed when he tried, back in 2002, to push some story involving Thomas White (Secretary of the Army) and Enron using possibly-fabricated emails. Krugman picked up on it, since Bush-Enron was his bete noire, and wanted to run with it, and was forced to back down. (Leopold's version of this incident is here.) He also plagiarized a significant part of the story -- he claims inadvertently -- and had some other problems, as quickly summarized here.
Wouldn't the right to privacy be a major issue in the surveillance aspect to gain foreign intelligence ? I have seen many arguments in other strings about an 'expected right to privacy' regarding this issue. I was not addressing it towards a Fourth Amendment referendum. It would have to apply to FISA standards for issuing warrants if such a referendum lowered the standard of privacy rights and would impact interpretation of what scope of power was being perceived as authorized, due to a lowered standard on privacy, by the AUMF. I concede the Fourth Amendment and criminal law aspects would not be as severely impacted, unless the crime is terrorism related. This is already a very murky area because of the overlap of intelligence and criminal aspects of prevention and detection of terrorist activities, with criminal detention playing a major role in prevention.
DeMoss was not questioning the explicit rights defined in the Fourth Amendment, dealing with search and seizure. No one argues that FISA is based on the "right to privacy" DeMoss does question.
I would add that the concept of an "expectation of privacy" in the context of surveillance had its origin in a different case -- Katz v. United States. That case was based directly on the Fourth Amendment, and held that electronic surveillance was covered by that amendment.
The term "expectation of privacy" thus has a specific meaning as a legal term of art related to surveillance, and was incorporated into the FISA statute. This use of the the word "privacy" is not at all dependent on the word as used in Griswold, which pertained to birth control.
In the beginning of the conversation with KMAJ, I was simply educating him about two concepts about which he apparently was confused.
Now, I see a more deliberate effort to distort a controversy over Griswold's use of "privacy" into a convoluted strawman argument. You seem to imply that if one questions Griswold's protection of condoms, one must accept warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens. RFLMAO.
You're right, I think I read too much into it.
Noah
The ACLU proposed such a special counsel several weeks ago. Marty Lederman, addressing that proposal, said that while he sympathized with the goal, a special-counsel probe did not seem legally viable.
As I understand Lederman's analysis, he believes the counsel would be bound to follow the legal opinion of Attorney General Gonzales, who already has found the NSA surveillance program to be perfectly okay as a matter of law:
Apart from the politics of this proposal, could it be made to work legally without additional enabling legislation? Could a counsel be appointed and be free to seek a ruling on the law from a court?
A several volume lenghty voluminous prolix discourse on Roe v. Wade and right to privacy (Uggghhh). Thank God I was born before that case became law, or I might not have been.
Really, it is much simpler to recognize the Americans With Disabilities Act "incorporation" clause, 42 USC 12101(b)(4), by using the word "including" to signify an illustrative list (not exhaustive) allows the ADA to "incorporate" and serve as pre-existing legislation for domestic enforcement of certain treaties. This includes the Convention Against Genocide. By this logic, Roe v. Wade was effectve overruled by Congress's pre-existing ADA legislation, and the Senate and President's ratification of the Ceonvention Against Genocide in 1998, when the treaty prohibitions became "incorporated" in and enforceable through the ADA, thereby eliminating the wanton genocide of fetuses. No big deal, and a lot cleaner than all that right to privacy penumbra stuff. With the right writing style, say Justice Scalia's perfect ability to write about treaties, international law, and statutory construction, this could all be taken care of in one brush of the pen.
However, if one is going to ban abortions in all but extremely necessary cases, then by the same logic, the ADA must be fully enforceable to ensure all those fetuses (especially the disabled ones) who get born are enabled to achieve enough quality of life and ability to work (by requiring accommodations) to avoid the burden on the government of warehousing all these future people vs. enabling them to work and pay their way.
The best place to start in my opinion is to eliminate all the red tape in bar admissions so law school grads walk out of law school with their professional license.
Let's see:
Was amended by the Supremes using one of the Article III penumbra of secret "powers" of the Court to amend the Constitution without adhering to the inconvenient and cumbersome requirements of Article V, to wit:
The Fourth Amendment now reads:
Thus, a Presidential Executive Order specifically targeting "foreign agents" of an enemy with "electronic surveilance" of their conversations transmitted by radio signals, against whom the Congress has declared war, for the specific purpose of gathering "tactical military intelligence" in order to prevent treason and terrorist attacks against our country are "unconstitutional" (and a "high Crimes and Misdemeanors"), while a Presidential Executive Order specifically targeting "US Residents" with "warrantless searches and seizures of their houses, papers, and effects" is perfectly fine. Go figure!
Except that "surveillance" of any kind, and verbal "conversations" were "conspicuous by their absence" in said Article when the 4th Amendment was ratified. Those additions to the BoR were added under the penumbra of "powers" delegated the Courts in Article III.
Query: If the President's actions, as Commander-in-Chief, to uphold his sacred oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" are "impeachable crimes", why aren't the actions of the Supremes "unilaterally amending the Constitution while ignoring the provisions of Article V also subject to impeachment?
Actually, Justice Powell's decision in Griswold is specifically tied, in part to the "general right of privacy" supposedly found in the Fourth Amendment:
What is it about this mythical general "right of privacy", that makes it so sacred to the Court when other specifically stated rights, such as "the people's right to keep and bear arms" free from infringement, can be ignored with impunity?
Yes, the finding in Griswold was based in part on the Fourth Amendment. But the Fourth Amendment is not based on Griswold. It speaks for itself.
The Amendment's search-and-seizure provisions are hard-wired into the Constitution. Surveillance is covered directly by the Fourth Amendment, as recognized in Katz v United States, which does not depend on Griswold.
The point is that, however much one quibbles with Griswold, it is simply not relevant to the NSA surveillance matter.
However, I will point out a couple of interesting things. First, he talks about one interesting part. Note how he talks about:
and then farther down he talks about being the liaison.
Changing the venue?
As far as I know, it isn't a violation of the Fourth Amendment for other countries to monitor the communications of Americans (or "United States Persons", if you will), just as it is not illegal for the United States to monitor the communications of foreigners outside the US, FISA or no FISA.
UKUSA, anyone?
The Katz decsion was based on an "expectation of privacy" to have one's "conversations" in a "public telephone" to be free from governmental "surveillance" that is, according to Justice Stewart found somewhere in the Fourth Amendment. Interestingly, the Fourth Amendment mentions only "the people's houses", and not public places, such as "public telephone booths". It also mentions "unreasonable searches and seizures" and not "probable suspicion" police "surveillance". Finally, this amendment references specifically only "persons, houses, papers, and effects" and not "conversations". Obviously, the "right" of an "expectation of privacy" enjoyed by Mr. Katz when he "converses about illegal activity" in a "public telephone booth" must tbe part of the same "penumbra" of general "rights of privacy" uncovered by Justice Douglas in Griswold.
BTW, Griswold predates Katz. What's truly amazing is that Justice Stewart disagreed with Justice Douglas' opinion in Griswold, to wit:
Also:
Finally:
What makes Justice Stewart's dissent in Griswold so amazing is that he concurred with Justice Blacknum's majority opinion, while, however, taking exception to the idea of a "general right of privacy" to be found in the 4th Amendment, to wit:
No wonder the Constitution as "revised" (amended) by activist Justices is so inconprehensible.
As for Justice Hand's "Platonic Guardians" - of course we know just how they are chosen - by the President of the United States with the "advice and consent" of the Senate. (See: Judge Samuel Alito's confirmation hearings as an example.)
Exactly! And nowhere in the 4th Amendment is the term "surveillance", nor the term "conversations", nor is the term "electronic communications". The very idea that Founders, when they ratified the 4th Amendment, had somehow had in mind a prohibition against the "surviellance" directed at the communications of enemy "foreign agents" (much less common criminals) as said enemy "foreign agents" conspire to destroy the Constitution of United States of America and harm "the People" of the United States is quite bizarre.
Trying to "cipher" the real meaning of the 4th Amendment from multitude of positions taken from the decisions propounded by many different Supreme Courts is like trying ascertain the meaning of a message cryptically written in a "one-time pad".
While the word "privacy" is not mentioned anywhere in the 4th Amendment (nor anywhere else in the Constitution, for that matter), we are told by the Supremes that this amendment protects "the people's right" of an "expectation of privacy" concerning their utterances, whether such "utterances" be criminal in nature or directed towards plots to disturb the "domestic Tranquility". To "get there from here" our "Plotonic Guardians" do not consult the "entrails of an owl", but instead fathom the "real meaning" of variety "rights" from a "penumbra" which apparently some, but by no means all, of their "Holy Order" find hidden somewhere in between lines or in the margins of the Constitution, as ratified. Frankly, I would prefer they used the "entrails of an owl"!
Well, I now understand that not only do you consider Griswold to have been wrongly decided, but Katz as well. That, of course, has some serious ramifications for domestic law enforcement and criminal procedure.
In your universe of legal analysis, where you feel free to undo landmark Supreme Court rulings as you see fit to advance your rhetorical case here, I understand how that must seem important to you.
In my universe, legal analysis is compelled to follow Supreme Court precedent. So however much I might be interested in how far you would go in unraveling decades of jurisprudence -- which isn't very interested at all, actually -- this has little bearing on the legal issues at hand.
Actually, I would prefer that the Constitution is amended the old fashion way - by application of the proscribed Article V methodology.
In your universe does the Supremes have to follow the Constitution? Apparently not. "Decades of jurisprudence" by creative jurists are unraveling our easily understood, plainly written Constitution. Unfortunately, for your "universe", according to Article VI, the law of the land is the Constitution and not a "morphing" precedent of changing Supreme Court majorities.
As demonstrated, the precedent in the area of the mythical Constitutional "right of privacy" changes depending on the composition of the Supreme Court. IMMHO, this is the very essence of government by the "rule of men", as oppose to the "rule of law". Laws are "written down" for a reason. If "the People" feel that the 4th Amendment is lacking in some substantial way, such as their "privacy" desires in making phone calls, then by all means "the People" should get their "elected" representatives to amend the Constitution so as to provide "security" for their telephonic communications, following the "authority" proscribed in Article V to do just that.
I suggest that if these activist Justices feel that Constitution is deficient in some substantial way in order to address "their deepest wants and desires", that they should do the honest thing - resign their Supreme Court office, run for election to Congress, and then get the requisite numbers of their legislative colleagues to support their "vision", along with 3/4 of the States legislatures. There was a good reason the Framers made the Constitution difficult to amend. None expressed the idea that an alternative to the stated Article V method was merely to get 5 of 9 Supreme Court Justices to agree to a specific change. Neither did any of the Framers opine that they included a "penumbra" of stealth "rights", carefully hidden so as to be only be seen by certain future "visionary" Justices. I am afraid that these "Plutonic Guardians" have truly made the Federal Judiciary the real "Despotc Branch"!
One of the problems with amending the Constitution through Supreme Court precedent is that an understanding of just what "rights" have specific Constitutional protected cannot be discerned by simply reading the document. I find it instructive that most of these Constitution changing precedent setting opinions are substantially longer the than the document itself, even as amended. The Framers believed in the simplicity of a written, easily understood Constitution. This is exactly what they ratified. Since the "Plutonic Guardians" havc had their way with our Constitution, not even a lawyer understands it "true" meaning. Instead of a "government of laws" we get a legalistic "crap shoot". BTW, if not plainly written and easily understood by "the People", just how is a "government of laws" possible?
In my universe, the Federal Judiciary intreprets the Constitution per their Article VI limitations, to wit:
Unfortunately, too many Federal Judges don't believe that they are necessarily bound by "This Constitution", and thus continue to bend it to suit their fancy. BTW, since when is "landmark Supreme Court rulings", and not the ratified Constiution, the "supreme Law of the Land"? The Article III "power" of Judiciary is specifically limited to the ratified Constitution, and not "Landmark Supreme Court rulings", according to Section 2 of said Article, to wit:
The "their Authority" referenced in Article III is the Constitution, Laws and Treaties of the United States, the same as Article VI and not "landmark Supreme Court rulings"!
In a different context, in a different thread, there are folks who might be interested in engaging you in a discussion of what landmark Supreme Court cases might have been wrongly decided, and what constitutional theories might lead to different different conclusion.
My point is that this thread is about a real-life controversy -- the NSA surveillance program. If I thought there were the slightest chance that Paul Clement would argue before the Supreme Court in this matter that Katz v United States should be overturned on the basis of your theory, I would find it useful to consider it here.
I don't.
Please provide the Article, Section, and Clause of the Constitution which states that the "Supreme Law of the Country" is "landmark Supreme Court cases".
As Judge Sam Alito said to that idiot, Senator Chunky Schumer, when the Senator got Alito to agree that "Free Speech" is constitutionaly protect, while the good judge would not "leap" to a similar conclusion regarding abortion - "Because 'Free Speech' is actually in the Constitution." Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that anyone has a "right" to an "expectation of privacy" with regards to their telephone calls. If that is not the case, then please, by all means, point it out to me, when you point out the Article, Section, and Clause which makes "landmark Supreme Court cases", the "Supreme law of the land".