Privacy and Guns:
Dan Solove, a noted privacy expert and advocate, and supporter of gun controls (though not of absolute gun bans), responds to my earlier post on the subject; I meant to blog a link about this weeks ago, but it slipped through the cracks.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Privacy and Guns:
- Privacy and Guns:
That's not just true for firearms but for almost everything for which registration becomes required.
Every time you register something you are or own with a government agency (or anywhere) you loose a bit of your freedom and privacy.
He's talking, of course, about the so-called "ballistic fingerprint." This is like identifying a chameleon by the color of his skin. The material characteristics of a firearm (such as the contours of the firing chamber or grooves in the barrel), unlike fingerprints, are easily modified and don’t return to any natural state. Next he’ll suggest profiling criminals by their shoelaces…
Rhetoric is one thing, hyperbole another. “Open carry” and “gunfight-at-noon” are diametrically opposed ideals. An ideologue like Solove understands this; he just doesn’t like guns. However, since the justifications for open carry (as opposed to no or concealed carry) are so apparent, so truly and undeniably obvious, that Solove’s inability to comprehend them must be a deliberate falsehood developed to prepare us for his greater logical fallacy:
Some free advice buddy: stick to Dr. Seuss.
Is this true? I have lots of things "registered" with various public and private entities -- my car, my state bar memberships, my gym membership . . . I'm not really afraid of getting any of them confiscated unless I break serious traffic laws, commit a dis-barrable infraction, or pee in the locker room shower.
Except for a few extremists who claim to want to ban guns, why would anyone think that registration would "invariably" lead to confiscation?
You don't see that open carry laws can lead to mistaken assessments of a threat against a person, which would not happen if the weapon was concealed. Let me just ask you a question about this. You indicate from your name that you were a Marine. If this is true, let's you were patrolling in both a warzone and in a peacetime base outside the U.S. and would you feel a greater threat from a person who openly displayed a weapon or from a person who did not display a weapon? Each I know could equally be a threat. I wasn't alive at the time of Vietnam, but I understand from the history that VC often not only failed to wear a uniform, but also would ditch weapons and other materials when a U.S. patrol would come upon them. I understand they did this to try to make them appear as a non-threat to U.S. personnel, when their active engagement in the battle made them a threat. Yet I think a displayed weapon would obviously be a threatening thing to a member of the military. Why wouldn't this be so for police officers or others who carry weapons?
Noah
Because, it always has in the past. Registration of firearms has been used as an early step towards a total ban.
The purpose of automobile registration is tax collection. The purpose of "state bar membership" is enforcement of a trade monopoly. The purpose of gym membership registration is to insure membership fee collection. The purpose of firearms registration is "power".
Tyrannies cannot share "power" with "the People", else they are no longer tyrannies. An armed "people" has power. As long as a government is not a tyranny, firearms registration might be benign.
Unfortunately "power corrupts". In the US, firearms registration, even on the local level, have fomented tyrannies. The case of State sponsored racism in the South is an example. Additionally, such systems often lead to corruption, as in New York City, where only those with political influence can register firearms.
A recent case of where "registration lead directly to confiscation" was in California, where legally registered semi-automatic firearms were later confiscated by the State for no good reason.
BTW, as the Supremes have found that the 5th Amendment precludes criminals from obeying State/Local firearms registration laws, only non-criminals are required to register their firearms. Just how forcing honest folks to register their firearms fosters controlling crime has yet to be demonstrated.
And heroin addicts all started with milk. Do we ban milk, or do we just note the fallacy of your logic and move on?
Richard Bellamy has it right that lots of things are required to be registered' let's see: bicycles, canoes, kayaks, cars, houses, dogs, woodstoves, houses. Is there a secret plan to confiscate our kayaks and bicycles?
Your last point is the most logical reason I have ssen to describe why gun control laws should be made. That they do not have any effect on controlling crime. I don't know if that is a settled fact, but it is most certainly an area of contention. That gun control laws control crime is not a settled fact either.
You bring up a California case where registration led to the seizure of semi-auto weapons "for no good reason." Can you cite this? I have oftern heard the claim made again today by musterion that registration leads to confiscation. Do you know of any historical evidence beyond the California case above, which I hope you will cite for me where this has been proven?
Noah
I think that a lot of gun rights people are worried that we might have a replay of what happened in the UK. Registration first, confiscation next. Soaring crime rate following, esp. of the night time home invasion type, where burglars come in with bats just in case they meet any resistance.
This is an instance of a more general circumstance.
We also have experience with imposing various kinds of gun controls. Advocates of same don't bother to point to said experience.
There are two sane reasons - they don't know about the experience or they know that the experience doesn't support their position. For the latter, we get to choose between they think that this time will be different and they have some other agenda.
In South Vietnam a virtual state of "martial law" existed. Anyone armed other than the US and Vietnamese military was a criminal by definition. You cannot compare that situation with the United States where being armed is a "right" and does not make you a criminal.
Except during a state of declared martial law, there is no reason for a LEO to be any more threatened by armed honest folks than by unarmed honest folks. The problem is that too many LEOs consider ALL ARMED FOLKS to be criminals. That wasn't the case when our Republic was founded. In fact, the whole idea of an "armed people" was to insure the "domestic tranquility" by the "keeping of the peace". BTW, an "obviously armed society" is also a "polite society"!
OK. I have checked on the UK and found that gun registration can lead to outright bans in some countries. Thus it seems that if we are going to respect people's rights to own weapons as is enshrined in the 2nd amendment and confirmed by the supreme court, then a registration on weapons seems adverse to this.
Noah
Whether or not the LEO attitudes would have been different during the Revolutionary period is not the issue? The issue is public safety. LEO have to deal with people who do not wish to be confronted by the officer. Everytime the go on patrol they know that their uniform can cause them to be threatened from people. I would think thus they have a reason to feel threatened by people who carry weapons both openly and concealed. This why, as I understand, generally LEO have been against carry laws. Yet you did not answer my question, don't you think there is an inherent threat in open carry laws that mistakes will be made as to threats? Do you think that these potential mistakes are outweighed by the open weapons ability to deter assaults? With second question, I would like you to consider that not all people and I think most people will not carry weapons.
I respect people's rights to own weapons. I do not own a weapon. Basically because I can't afford and have no cause for one because I don't hunt or get to go to the shooting range too often, but I understand people's desire to own a weapon. Yet by its definition owning a weapon is a threat to other people. The owner of weapon is declaring their intention to defend themselves with deadly force if assaulted. Thus the idea of some regulation of this right seems logical. If the regulation does not help ensure public safety, then there is no longer a point to the legislation. But if does then there is point to the legislation.
Noah
I would like to discuss your point about registration in California leading to confiscation. We in California have banned semi-auto weapons. Whether this ban is a good thing or a bad thing I think is up for debate. Yet, I do not know of any registration prior to the ban. Secondly, we in California have been subject to some of the most extreme examples of gun violence from the Bank of America shooting in North Hollywood, the invention of the drive-by and school shootings. As well as numerous examples of questionable police shootings. You will please excuse us if we through our representatives have tried to counter this violence through regulation, as the Supreme Court has asserted is our right. If these laws do not help counter crime, I will be with you in their repeal for preventing the innocent from having their weapons banned. Yet, as far as I know, after the ban went into effect in 1989 gun violence in California went down in the 1990's.
Noah
"Registration invariably leads to confiscation and is therefore a serious intrusion.
That's not just true for firearms but for almost everything for which registration becomes required."
Accordingly, the suggestion that firearm registration in particular might lead to confiscation does not really contradict Richard's point, nor support the claim to which he was replying.
And incidentally, I am also skeptical about registration in general leading to confiscation. Whether registration of firearms specifically would lead to their confiscation is a more difficult question, although I think that in the United States, that would at least very much depend on where you are talking about.
This why, as I understand, generally LEO have been against carry laws.
As I understand it, Police Chiefs, who are, to a certain extent, political figures are generally against carry laws, but patrol officers in this country are generally in favor of them.
Yours,
Wince
I know in California patrol officers, obviously this depends on the individual officer, are against carry laws. Secondly, I understand that generally police unions are against carry laws. Everytime a initiative in California for a carry law or other type of regulation of weapons I see the California union for police and sheriff against the carry law and for the regulation. Now it is fair to say that these are political organizations, but they represent the majority of their members.
Noah
As I have commented before on this blog, I believe a concealed weapon proves much more effective in deterring crimes if those criminals are foolish enough to test a concealed carrier. In my experience with even the most sociopathic defendants, I have asked what scares them most in the course of their “careers”. More often than not, it is whether a law-abiding victim is carrying a concealed weapon. It also appears from the course of my informal and unscientific questioning that they expect those of “their kind” (co-conspirators, fellow drug dealers, burglars, etc) to be carrying some sort of weapon as well.
As a conservative lawyer and a legitimate carrier of a concealed weapon, I am very comfortable with registering myself and my firearm(s) with law enforcement officials. I live in a large and diverse city in the northeast and it is unfortunate that the irresponsibility of the few must burden law abiding firearm owners. I don’t necessarily see this as a restriction but as a necessary burden that allows me to enjoy this constitutional right in today’s context.
The law-abiding owner of a weapon is only a threat to criminals. I fail to see how this is a threat we should do without.
Yet not all carriers of weapons will be law-abiding even if they obtained the weapon and the carry license legally. LEOs know this and will most certainly feel threatened if they see weapon. I will declare now that I am not a LEO and if someone demonstrates to me that a majority of LEOs feel differently than I, I will withdraw my claim. But from a common sense perspective a LEO does not know the person that they see is law-abiding and they will thus be more concerned which can lead to situations that endanger public safety. This may be different for smaller communities, but in big cities I believe it is most certainly the case.
Noah
To begin - "the People's right to keep and bear arms" is a RIGHT, not a "Privilege". As such, the only reason for "firearms control" is a "compelling State interest". The most stated "compelling State interest" is "crime control". If the issue of whether "firearms control" equals "crime control" is not settled - it can hardly be a "compelling State interest" to allow the State to infringe upon a "right of the People".
Yes!
The most impressive was pre-War Germany:
Interestingly, the Nazi Weapons Law (March 18, 1938) was the "template" for the U.S Gun Control Act of 1968, although no "national" firearms registration was included in the U.S. law. Under this law certain firearms have been "banned" based on "no sporting use", a term that has no meaning in a Nation whose people have the "right to keep and bear arms" for self-defense and to guard against tyranny. The "sporting use" terminology came from the Nazi gun control law.
England prior to the 1920s had no "gun control" laws. In the 20s, for reasons similar to the Germans in 1928, the Brits began enacting more draconian gun control, including registering all firearms and requiring police permits to own them (1920 Firearms Act). This lead directly to the confiscation of all handguns in 1997 and subsequently to virtually all firearms, including "b-b guns" being banned and confiscated.
A similar course was followed in Australia:
Cities, like New York City used registration as a means to ban and confiscate firearms:
I was waiting for you to bring up the right to keep and bear arms under 2nd amendment. I have never understood why gun rights activists cannot seem to read the full amendment. The amendment reads "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." The word regulated is in the amendment. No other amendment has similar qualifying language. Thus I don't see how this can mean that the right is as absolute as other rights in the bill of rights or as you claim. Thus I don't that the state has to "prove" that their "compelling state interest" is true, but just that this is their reasoning for the provision. I always thought that it was required for the opponents of the said provision to demonstrate that the "compelling state interest" is false. Perhaps I am reading the law wrong, but I don't think so since the courts have consistently backed the state's right to regulate guns since the late 19th century.
Militias, of course, were the objects of the state and thus would be regulated by the state. I have thought that gun rights activists would have a point if they said that the federal government cannot regulate weapons, because militias were state-controlled, but I've never heard this argument made. It is my belief that just as the militias can be forced into the regular military forces, so thus the federal government gains the right to regulate weapons. Yet here you are saying that states can't regulate weapons. That just does not make sense to me.
Finally, as to your point about the registration in California leading to a ban. That 1989 law that you cite WAS the ban. Any registration must have been part of the ban. Thus, it was not passed prior to the ban and therefore would not confirm your point that registration would inevitably lead to a ban, because the ban was already in place before the registration.
Noah
I am not advocating the registration of any or all weapons. Yet as the person here who seems to be arguing the opposing viewpoint, I will offer the reason that people want registration and/or licensing of weapons.
The Brady Campaign gives this a the reason:
"Registration allows for speedier and more reliable tracing of guns used in crime. Without registration, local or state officials must go to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) for assistance in tracing guns. BATF, in turn, contacts the manufacturer of the gun, who in turns identifies the Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) to whom the gun was sold. BATF must then seek the cooperation of the FFL in determining who bought the gun from the FFL. If subsequent, or secondary, transfers are not recorded, the investigation can quickly lead to a dead end. An untold number of criminals escape conviction because there is no paper trail or evidence linking them to the crime guns they used.
Registration is designed to reduce illegal gun trafficking by providing for more efficient tracing of guns used in crimes and tougher prosecution of those who sell guns to illegal purchasers. State-based registration of handgun transfers can achieve that objective."
Noah
Really? So it is your position that human nature has changed since 1776! Of course, you cannot demonstrate that an unarmed "public" is 'safer" than an "armed public", so on just what do you base your assertion that the "public safety" is benfitted by disarming honest people?
Normally they are criminals who are generally uneffected by firearms control laws.
Doesn't the idea of paranoid, armed LEOs bother you, at least a little bit? Armed criminals are one thing, but armed honest folks shouldn't concern any LEO. That is, unless it is the LEO who is criminal!
Why on earth should they?
Where did you get that information? In fact, most LEOs support the "right of the people to keep and bear arms". It is the political hacks in Law Enforcement that don't.
Why? What makes you more confident in armed LEOs than in armed honest folks? Actually, armed private folks do a better job of "crime control" than do armed LEOs. Perhaps that is why the "pol,itical hacks" in Law Enforcement fear armed citizens.
No! The facts demonstrate otherwise!
So, what? Not everyone pays taxes, but everyone benefits.
The reason most folks own firearms is not hunting and target shooting, but self-defense. One of the reasons firearms are so expensive is the people don't loike firearms make it difficult to produce and sell them, thus increasing the cost. As far as I can see, the only person who should feel "threatened" by my "bearing a firearm" is those who would "assault me", i.e. criminals. Personally, I like the idea that my "right to keep and bear arms" frightens criminals. Unfortunately "regulation" usually means "disaarmament". Again, governments "regulate" because they prefer a monopoly on power.
Exactly!
Really? Says who? See:Law Enforcement Alliance of America
But some will, and will assist in law enforcement. Please tell me how Washington, DC - aplace where only honest folks don't "keep and bear firearms" is better than Vermont, where all honest folks can carry firearms openly if they so choose.
Why?
Most Cops voted for Bush in the last election while the Police Unions supported Kerry. Who says the unions follow the dictate of the "rank and file". You have been too easily lead by the propaganda.
Actually, in a State where honest folks may carry firearms openly, the LEO that sees an armed person can generally assume that they have the legal right to do so and are no threat to them or the "public safety". In fact, just the opposite - as an armed honest citizen can be expected to support the LEO in the maintenance of the "public safety". If a LEO seeing someone exercising their rights to "keep and bear arms" is a cause for paranoia on the part of a LEo, I suggest it is the LEO who needs to be disarmed, and not the honest citizen.
Exactly why is human nature different in "smaller communities" than in "big cities". The implication is almost racist, IMMHO!
A few points:
(1) The causal relation between registration and confiscation is, of course, impossible to prove. But gun rights people such as myself have noted that registration does two things: First it puts you on the slippery slope towards outright confiscation. Second, it makes confiscation easy when you reach that point. Other posters have given examples. I've had occassion to talk informally with some very significant people in the anti-gun movement (Not crazy, but fanatical. For example, one was a very senior appointee in the Clinton DOJ.) These people were quite open in private about admitting that they regarded registration as a necessary step towards the necessary and inevitable confiscation of ALL firearms.
(2) In California, the law was essentially used to have naive individuals reveal that they legally owned certain types of firearms. Later regulations promulgated under the law were used to make these types of firearms illegal by fiat. We can quibble about semantics, but in my book this is essentially a form of registration leading to confiscation.
(3) I find several problems with your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. First, militia meant all persons in the country perceived as being capable of bearing arms. Congress clarified this with one of its very first pieces of legislation, The Militia Act. Militia did not refer to state-controlled bodies of armed men. It does not even really correspond the Anglo-Saxon fyrdung. Militia still has this broad meaning today although most people don't realize it. I suspect that John Adams or someone like him -- who had an almost neurotic fear of mob rule -- inserted the "well-regulated". It does not appear in most ofr the states' Bills of Rights. Even if your interpretation is correct, regulation of firearms as you define it would seem to directly contradict the "shall not be infringed" clause. The author of the Bill of Rights was wise enough that he would never have allowed a contradiction like this into one of the most important articles in the Bill of Rights: One that confirmed what was a fundamental right under the Common Law. After all, Coke argued that after the right to life and property, the right to keep and bear arms was one of the fundamental ancillary rights of Englishmen. The English courts confirmed this when they invalidated parts of the Test Acts that prevented Roman Catholics from arming themselves.
Even law abiding people do stupid things. A criminal is a law abiding person until they become criminal. Your point that LEO's won't feel threatened by open carry weapons doesn't make sense. As I said, LEO's don't know that the person carrying a weapon is carrying it legally. They are naturally threatened in their job. Think about how much greater the percentage of law enforcement enforcement killed or injured than the greater population. This isn't just coindidence. This is not to say that they are paranoid and going to shoot everyone. Even though there have been instances of mistaken shootings in the past, LEOs are trained to deal with violent situations that honest civilians are not. They confront the criminals that civilians don't and thus have greater danger to them. Which is why as I said not only police chiefs, but also their unions which represent and they vote on oppose carry laws, at least in California. If you can demonstrate I am wrong, I will agree with you.
As to your point about the Revolution, law enforcement wasn't the same then as it is now. There weren't large police forces in cities, but much smaller police forces if any. Also a greater percentage of the public owns weapons today than during the Revolution. And weapons were very different. A LEO then does not confront the same threats as a LEO today. Thus I think they have a reason to feel more threatened.
Armed LEOs are better equipped to handle crime than armed civilians because they are trained to handle crime. Aside from weapons training, they get training in methods to deal with crime and issues of violence to an extent that civilians get. That's why we have LEOs.
The question of whether an armed public is safer than unarmed public is an issue that we all struggle with, but just I can't demonstrate to you that an unarmed law-abiding public is safer than armed public. You can't demonstrate the opposite. I will go with the people who do the job who say they prefer what they prefer. Please demonstrate to me that open carry laws have lead to less crime. I have never seen any such statistic.
I said that the issue with open carry laws was that most to majority of the public won't carry weapons. You said so, not everyone pays taxes. Firstly, this has nothing to with issue. Secondly, a majority of people do pay taxes. Answer question.
Criminals aren't the only people frightened by somebody carrying a gun. A lot of law-abiding people are frightened by people carrying a gun. Weapons are dangerous. Just look at accidental shootings. To think that they are not is foolish. Not everybody knows how to use weapons properly. I do not doubt your facility with your firearm. Yet, you can not believe that everybody who owns a firearm legally is completely responsible with it, do you? Why accidents happen then?
Finally, you never answered my point that the state has right to regulate the ownership and the carrying of weapons. I am sorry that you fearful of the state encroachment that you think you need to carry weapons on you all time, but that does not mean that the state can't reasonable regulate weapons. I am fearful of state oppression too. Yet in a society we give to state the legitimate use of force. That's for a state. If that reason, why would give up some our freedoms to them. Why would we create a state if not to give them the legitimate use of force?
Noah
(1) Surveys seem to suggest that high level officials in police unions and police executives favor stricter gun control, but the rank and file and lower rank officers do not. This is a fairly standard pattern: Elites in this country and those who associate with them tend to adopt "fashionably liberal" attitudes towards certain shibboleth issues. The masses are much more "conservative" on issues like gun control, abortion, capital punishment, gay marriage, etc., etc., it's a social class thing.
(2) The 2nd Amendment has several purposes: It allows people to defend their most fundamental rights -- life and property -- in an effective way. It ensures that a true militia does exist to protect the community. (Study after study shows that gun owners and carriers have a much higher propensity than others to act as "Good Samaritans", tending to confirm this.) Finally, this militia can act as a final safeguard against government tyranny. Anti-gunners may believe that "It can't happen here," but I'd rather put my faith in the educated cynicism of the founding fathers, who saw that striving for unadulterated power was part of the makeup of all politicians. They saw the militia as a final bulwark against tyranny.
I'm willing to let people have semi-auto and auto weapons, IF they join some kind of Guard or Reserve program. At the very least they should know how to use and store their weapons correctly.
It is not a difference between the human nature of people in smaller communities and the human nature of people in big cities. It is the difference in the nature on the place. In smaller communities, people feel safer. That is why doors remain unlocked. That is why people do not have the same fear on the streets. Secondly, I thought that is smaller communities where people know each other better than cities where often who don't know your neighbors that well makes this a big difference. This has nothing to do with race. I live big city. I have lived small cities and towns. You can tell difference if you lived in big cities and if you lived in smaller cities. And whether its whitest city in America or blackest town in America. The town is safer than the city. That's why crime is higher in cities.
Secondly, your point that unions don't represent their members or that LEAA more accurately represents police is ridiculous. Firstly, I can join the LEAA. I saw the membership site. If I join, then it doesn't represent the police officers. I haven't seen the evidence as to the Kerry vs. Bush things with unions vs. their members. But most unions are in large cities. And smaller community police may be members of the same unions as the big city police. Either way, Bush hasn't made any statements, as far as I know, concerning carry laws, which are generally state matters. Unions have.
AppSocRes:
I took look at the Militia act and I believe you are wrong. Several times throughout the act it says the "militia of such state or states." This indicates that the state controls it. But for a more definitive demonstration of this. Let's look to the Revolutionary war, where the Jefferson was conducting the affairs of the Virginia militia. Militias were not just organizations of people who owned weapons and formed clubs. They were state organizations with standards set by the states. The officers confirmed by the states, just as officers in the military are confirmed by the federal government. This why they were to be called upon by the president to defend the nation. The government, at the time, could not compel somebody to take up arms. To this point, how do you think it would be possible for the president to compel a group of citizens to do something if the state did not have any control on them.
Finally, as to the point that my interpretation of the amendment is incorrect, it is not just my interpretation. It is the interpretation of the Supreme Court from the late 19th century. When first said that a community can regualte the carrying weapons. Laws that do not allow people to carry weapons in public are not new. The came out of the late 19th century where communities feared armed bandits and thus didn't allow people to carry weapons in their town. So if you want to change the state's ability to regulate weapons, you have to go to the Supreme Court and asked them to be changed.
Noah
As to the wording of the amendment, it might be important to note that there the "right to bear arms" is a clause which is broken off from "shall not be infringed." Thus it is possible to argue that they were trying to say the right of the militia to bear arms shall not be infringed. The court has said that individuals do have the right to bear arms, but that the state has the right to regulate. That is my position. I do not believe in registration, if the design is to lead to a ban on all weapons. I do believe in the state's right to ban some weapons.
Also as to your common law reading of the English right to bear arms. The Constitution overrides common law. No matter what common law interpretation would be, the wording of the amendment makes the common law interpretation moot.
Noah
I think it's a pretty obvious assumption. A weapon carried openly will be legal. Illegal weapons will be carried concealed.
Armed LEOs are better equipped to handle crime than armed civilians because they are trained to handle crime.
No doubt this is true, but the fact remains that armed citizens "handle" a great many more burglaries, assaults, home invasions, etc. every year than the police do (i.e. armed citizens protect themselves when the police can't).
I have to admit, though, I lived for a long time in a state where open carry was legal and common, and even though I was certain that anyone carrying was doing so legally, it made me nervous. I just don't like being around armed strangers - you don't know if the guy is a psycho or what.
First I see absolutely no connection between registration of firearms and corruption of government. If the government is corrupt gun registration will be only one among many abuses experienced. And I do not see any civilized argument for the underlying premises, viz. that an armed citizenry will strike enough fear into the elected officials to stem any such corruption. In that case, who needs the Constitution in the first place?
A. I thought this was about privacy interests.
B. Did the Framers think that "a well armed militia" was necessary for individual's protection but for "the security of a free State." I just don't see where that comes from. And more importantly, the actual words of the Constitution do not include pure prohibitions from any regulation, like there are in the First Amendment, but only a ban on infringement. I don't see how registration infringes on anything.
C. And if we are going to argue from deductions as to why the Second Amendment is in the Constitution in the first place, a more logical conclusion would be that gun ownership has nothing to do with any privacy (or natural or "god" given) rights.
I am struck by two things:
Clearly their is a basis for privacy rights in the Constitution if it is to make sense.
But whenever guns come into the picture it's as if the actual words of the Framers don't count for anything. Even though our first amendment rights are circumscribed by the "yelling fire in a theater" type of proscription, gun fanatics see any boundary as unconstitutional.
And can anyone provide me with a reasoned and textual and precedential argument?
I am not trying to take guns away from people. As I said, I would a weapon if I thought it was a high priority for to carry one for my protection and if I could afford. Neither condition applies, but my attitude may change. I disagree with people eliminating guns, precisely because of the founders belief in protecting citizens from a oppresive government. Yet that does not mean that the state has no reasonable right to regulate.
As to your point about the difference between elites and rank and file, I have been a union member and I have talked to both national union leaders, chapter leaders, activist and non-activist members and have never found this dichotomy between rank-and-file beliefs and elte beliefs. I have been told of this dichotomy many times by conservatives that don't like unions and I have never seen any evidence to demonstrate this is the case.
Noah
It seems that like the bases for the arguments pro and con gun control, the reaction of LEOs is related to the culture in which it is observed. In the South and the West (excluding Atlanta and possibly other urban areas) seeing a person with an open weapon is par for the course, especially in hunting season. In fact in most rural states this is acceptable, especially if the LEO knows the family of the person with the gun.
Being frightened of guns is a result of lack of intimate contact (i.e. someone owns and uses) with firearms or the result of a high crime influence, even if by proxy (TV) such as seen in "The Big City."
So when you state that LEOs would be concerned if they saw an openly armed citizen, I am sure that in your context that is true. If the Williamson County, TN sheriff saw me with one in hunting season, he'd probably ask after my family; that's the cultural difference.
A related issue is the use of guns in self defense. I grant you that most pistol owners have little training in the use of weapons, but one of the universal aspects of carry laws is that the prospective owner has to take a gun safety course which usually involves meeting some criteria involving accuracy, applicable laws, and safety. In other words the only persons who can obtain the license will most likely be middle class educated individuals who are willing to fork out $150/year for the privilege. Only the most assiduious will actually carry the gun all the time. But even if they did, it would be for a legitimate reason. Police are not required to assure the safety of citizens, in fact they are not even obligated to answer emergency calls when a crime is being committed. They only enforce the laws on the scene in the oft chance that they are present when it occurs and that is more likely to occur in a traffic violation than a rape. So citizens have to have some means of protection (the most common sense one is to run, if possible) and carrying a weapon is one of those possibilities.
Obviously I am on the side of fewer controls but I don't have a problems with a slightly regulated society asking for some proof that the owner who carries will not shoot himself (the most likely gender) in the foot. The NRA is the foremost promoter of gun safety (provided you can get past all the politics) and this is a common sense position to take for gun owners in general. I see no problem with demanding someone who carries a gun have the same training as the rent-a-cop in the mall.
Most policemen never fire their weapon in the course of duty except to qualify. Most policemen could not hit the side of a barn from the inside with their pistols in a stress situation because they don't emphasize that skill in training. I'm not sure that the average LEO is more skilled than the rent-a-cop, but they are more aware of the consequences which is one thing that a citizen who carries should also be.
I think a good argument can be made that, assuming an absolute right to have a weapon is true, carrying a concealed weapon is a broad privilege in the sense of driving is a privilege. The assumption is that a citizen has the privielge unless there is reason to believe that they should not have that privilege. The burden of safety and obedience to the law that can be enforced by the state in the form of carry laws that require some training. It is done in every state in order to obtain a hunting license and the same is true for the various levels of driving licenses. This should not deny the right to have a firearm (although there may be a further economic barrier to the ownership of pistols) if done well. The big city culture in this scenario has influence, however, and that may be an impediment to those who want to be able to carry. Each state can have its own variation of the carry law that suits the citizens but the privilege should not discriminate and there will be some shifting of cultural norms on both sides. As a result, access to the broad privilege of concealed carry will vary somewhat from state to state.
I am with you. I have been around guns for part of my life at least. I have fired weapons and understand completely people's desire to carry a concealed weapon. What I was saying is that carrying an open weapon in city is different than carry a hunting rifle in a small town. That is what I was disagreeing with. A person who is hunter has to carry a weapon openly if their gonna hunt. It is thus ridiculous to restrict such weapons in a place where people know each better and they have a better sense of gun safety. And I think that this is why the state should have the authority to make such determinations, rather than to consider this a right that is so
I disagree with your assessment that a rent-a-cop and a LEO have the same experience and training to deal with crime. Specifically, because LEOs have to constantly retrain, while rent-a-cops don't. But thank you for demonstrating that there is a difference in people's attitudes towards guns in cities and smaller communities. I know that when I am in community where I know the people who carry weapons, I feel safer than when strangers carry weapons.
The NRA, I think, is the best organization on the issue of how to own and use a weapon responsibly. I know that when I went to the range. The accuracy standard was the NRA standard. Not only that though they hold classes on responsbile gun ownership. The train people on handle situations where they fear for their life. Also, I not completely sure about this, but I believe they advocate people to use trigger locks and safes to keep guns out of the hands of those who don't know how to use them. Also, they train in children in how to handle weapons, which is something I think is very good because it eliminates the chance of accidental shootings. I still disagree with the NRA's position on the 2nd amendment, but I commend their efforts to promote gun safety.
Noah
"Well-regulated" in the "militia" context of the 2nd Amendment either means a "well-trained militia" or a "military under civilian control" - it modifies only the "militia" aspect", and not "the People's right".
The 2nd Amendment also is the only Amendment to use the expression "shall not be infringed". If the term "well-regulated" inferred "gun control laws" the concept "shall not be infringed" is totally meaningless. The Framers did not a habit of placing "meaningless verbage" in their enactments.
There are two schools of thought here. To wit:
Of course, I am pleased you are curious about the "real" meaning of the words that comprise the text of the 2nd Amendment. I am a "strict constructionist" sort of guy myself, as well.
Really? Then why have it as part of "the People's rights" in the first place? I am afraid your argument is here totally illogical.
So you position that there is no "right of the People to keep and bear arms" to be infringed. Amazing! On just what do base this logical? The courts, perhaps? Such as the Supreme who under Chief Justice Taney opined that the African slave, Dred Scott, was less than a person, and therefore had no "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", much less the "right to keep and bear arms". Gun control and those who promote it, for the most part has always seemed pretty racist, IMMHO! Of course, Chief Justice Taney also opined that whites, in fact, have an unalienable right to be armed. Go figure!
As demonstrated, the "militia", "well-regulated" or otherwise, is not the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. Its purpose is to insure the "right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" - the same as the 1st Amendment bars Congress from making any "law respecting an establishment of" a national "religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" by the people, or "abridging the freedom of" political "speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Of course, such rights are quite meaningless to a tyrannical government, which retains the "power" to disarm "the People", by gun control. Hence the 2nd Amendment. Accordingly, neither Federal, State nor Local governments have the "power" to "infringe" on "the People's right to keep and bear arms".
Do you have any idea why the "shot heard 'round the World" was fired? Well, the Redcoats from Bosaton, having disarmed the citizens of that fair city were in the process of doing the same to the citizens of Concord and Lexington. The shot was fired in reaction to British "gun control"!
No, the 1989 law did not "ban" the possession of "so-called" "assault weapons" (a totally meaningless term) it merely provided for there "registration". To wit:
Subsequently, legal owned firearms that were registered under the 1989 law, as amended, were banned and confiscated.
Try to get a permit to own a firearm in NYC!
Governments and States do not have "rights" (only "powers" and "authorities"). Only people have "rights". "The People" institute governments to "secure these (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (property) rights" and as such merely allow only as much of their ("the People's") sovereignty as needed by government to function in that vain.
In Washington, DC your "reasonable right to regulate" is a total prohibition of private ownership of firearms - yet DC has the highest crime/murder rate in the US. Apparently the government of Washington, DC is failing to secure "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (property)" for "the People" of the District. Go figure!
It has nothing to do with 'regulations' in terms of passing rules or laws that restrict behavior.
Look up the meaning of the word 'irregular' as in 'irregular troops' or 'Baker Street Irregulars' if you are a Sherlock Holmes fan. 'Irregular' troops are commonly indigenous peoples organized into guerilla forces and while they can be effective (like Holmes' Baker Street Irregulars composed mostly of street urchins) they do not have the discipline of 'well-regulated' troops.
You mean in the sense that "political free speech, press, and assembly" are "privileges", or that the right to express one's religion faith is some sort of government granted "privilege"? Where did you get that idea from? Mein Kampf?
"Voting" is a "privilege" - "self-defense" (and its means) are a "right" which government cannot debarred "the People", unless someone is a convicted felon. As with all "rights", it is understood that they can only be exercised to do "good" and never "evil".
First, I am impressed that you went to such a length to determine what 18th century definition of "well-regulated." This must be an issue of singular importance to you. But I am sorry to say that your opinion and the opinion of a journalist, who is on the board of several dictionaries does not have weight on the issue of law. Guess whose does? Yeah, that's right its Supreme Court. The Supreme Court determined in 1886 in Presser v. Illinois and subsequent cases in the 1890's that the second amendment does not prevent the state from making laws concerning gun ownership and formation of militaristic societies outside the scope of the government.
Then after that in 1942, the court decided in Cases v. United States that "Apparently, then, under the Second Amendment, the federal government can limit the keeping and bearing of arms by a single individual as well as by a group of individuals, but it cannot prohibit the possession or use of any weapon which has any reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia."
People have the right to keep and bear arms. I am saying that they don't nor am I saying that they shouldn't. I am two things 1) I think this right should be regulated. I formed this opinion through examination of the effects of gun violence and how prevent it. I also formed this opinion on a reading of the constitution that says the purpose behind this amendment is to allow for a well-regulated militia. People of the state should allowed to defend themselves against what they feel is an oppressive federal government. The word "regulated" may be modifying "militia," but in deference to the authority you cite the purpose behind this amendment was to ensure not that guns wouldn't be regulated but that people would have adequate defense against an oppressive government.
I am also stating 2) what the Supreme Court says. I don't agree with the Supreme Court, but when I do I do. I have given the cases above where they determination. And they have a better understanding of the law than both of us. But it obvious what their opinion is and what law of the land is. The NRA in 1990's tried to overrule the law passed by several to ban certain weapons. These laws were upheld. They upheld, because it was determined that these were reasonable regulations of weaponry.
Finally, when you try to insult calling me a racist and so on, you hurt your argument not mine. How do you know I'm not black or hispanic? As a matter of fact, some of the strongest gun control advocates are black. Why do you think D.C. banned weapons? It wasn't Congress that did it. They would never go that far. The D.C. city council did it. The D.C. government that was elected by the people of the District. And to you point that the city council is trying to kill their constituents because they wanted to ban weapons, please do not make specious arguments like that. I lived in D.C. and believe they like their gun ban. The reasons behind D.C. crime rate has lot more to do then the banning of weapons.
Noah
On the other hand, the Mein Kampf reference is "annoying", even if it is in the First Amendment context
Your constant attacks on me, as if I am stating a position that tyrannical or racist is specious, stupid and wrong. I believe in the right that you believe. I don't believe it is absolute and guess what I'm not alone. We have this court that is the final review on the interpretation of the Constitution. I'm not sure if you heard of it. Its called the Supreme Court. All you know about me is my name and the positions I've stated on this blog. If you look at other threads, you'll notice I'm not one for tyrannical government.
Please stop the ad hominem and the ridiculous arguments. People disagree on the Constitution without be Hitler, Taney or any other figure of international and national evil. I am not saying that your anarchist. I am not saying that you're, but instead you are insulting me calling me a racist and a Nazi. Stop.
Luagha:
The words "well-regulated" does not mean just that they can shot straight or that are well disciplined. Regulate means:
To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law.
To adjust to a particular specification or requirement: regulate temperature.
To adjust (a mechanism) for accurate and proper functioning.
To put or maintain in order: regulate one's eating habits.
Just as the Congress has the right to regulate the army and navy states have the right to regulate militia. The Congress provided rules much more greater than to provide discipline in the Articles of War and UCMJ. If regulate did not mean regulate what would be the purpose behind their stating. Why would they put the words in if they had no effect?
Noah
The first amendment, which unlike the second contains on qualifying language, is not absolute. The people retain a right to keep and bear arms. That though is not absolute nor is binding on the states. Remember, we're talking about the federal constitution. Arguing positions is one thing. Tossing ad hominems at a person is another. I have thoroughly exhausted by people's inability to understand my positions. I have yet to attack them as fascists or anything like it.
Noah
Note also: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state," The well-regulated militia is 'necessary'. It is not 'limited for the security of a free state' or 'controlled for the security of a free state'; it is 'necessary to.'
The effect and meaning of these words seems clear to me and that the more one looks at them the more it becomes clear that the 'well-regulated' meaning must be the meaning to which I refer.
They are explaining the purpose behind the remaining portion of the sentence.
And - I jest - if you ask why certain words are there if they don't mean anything, then why are those extra commas there? :)
(Of course, decent 9th grade civics classes are also few and far between these days."
One definition is as you describe is synomous with having a disciplined militia. Another definition is that regulate means to provide the rules for, as in I regulate my child's activities or the government regulates industry. You are telling you are and I am in thinking it is the second definition rather first. You say that the purpose behind the words "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" was just to describe the reasons behind the declaration of the right to keep and bear arms. Thus the first words of the amendment are meant to be a whereas clause. Yet, all the amendments were also considered necessary to having a free state. You can't free state if can't speak freely, if the press restricted, if you punished for you religious beliefs, if you are secure in your person or from unreasonable prosecution and so on. None of these amendments have a "whereas clause." This is indicates that this clause was meant to have the force of law. Every word in the constitution, except the preamble which by its definition is a whereas clause, is read to have some force of law.
Noah
(If you want to talk about the Supreme Court and 'why were words put into the document if they don't mean anything' we could get into Amendment 9 and 10, but that might be depressing.)
I agree with your position. The Mein Kampf reference violates the rules below, however. Please don't do that again.
The example of Germany is instructive here as long as we remember that no one here is advocating a position in any way similar to that of the Nazis. Don't browbeat people with it, okay?
Noah,
As regards racism and gun control, it is an important historical fact that the first gun control laws were all rascist in nature. African Americans and native Americans both were discriminated against, sometimes directly in the text of the law, sometimes through unequal enforcement. This discrimination continued till well after the Civil War. I have heard people call the laws against crack cocaine racist when contrasted to the laws about the regular powder. I would not be surprised if gun control laws, including concealed carry laws were still unequally enforced. OTOH, given the the recent evidence that police are not in fact profiling, I would not be surprised to discover that gun control laws were now being enforced equally.
Guns were important during the Civil Rights Era in protecting African Americans against Klan violence - even when the Klan was supported by the local government.
In any event, I am glad you support people having guns. I believe that the Second Amendment clearly defines a right for people to own and carry firearms. None of our right under the Constitution are absolute, except abortion, apparently, since there seem to be no restrictions allowed prohibiting a woman to get an abortion for any reason. I'm not sure why abortion has that status. In any event, the courts have not been aggressive in protecting our rights under the Second Amendment. They need to strike down some laws to protect it, just as they have struck down laws to protect every other Amendment but the Third (whom no one seems eager to violate). The DC gun ban is so draconian that it must be unconstitutional. The Second Amendment may not be an absolute right, but it has to protect something.
Yours,
Wince
If I changed the words, it was a mistake in not looking at the words again before I wrote what I wrote. I am sorry about that. Also I agree with your regret as to the failure to enforce the 9th amendment. But I'm a liberal and while I respect the 10th amendment, I believe in an expansive reading of the text of the constitution to fit the conditions of our times. I don't want to get into discussion of broad vs. narrow construction of the constitution with that. I just wanted to show you where I am coming.
You are right that this is a enumeration of rights people have regardless of whether this government exists or doesn't. Yet a free government needs its citizens to keep all their freedoms, except those that are necessary to the protection of the state and its citizens. This where I think (and am backed up by the court) where the founders tried to strike a balance with the second amendment.
If we think about the various reasons that the Constitutional Convention came about, we must include the inability of the Confederation Congress to borrow money, tax people or states, provide for defense or a coherent foreing policy, pay debts and the alarminig events like Shays Rebellion. Ignoring the other issues which are not germane to this discussion, Shays Rebellion truly frightened many of the leaders of the Revolutionary generation, like Madison, Washington, Adams and others. Some like Jefferson, Paine, the other Adams felt that this was merely a democratic expression, but the Washington and his ilk were truly afraid of mob violence. But they knew government could be oppressive. Thus they wanted a balance between allowing mob violence, respecting people's inherent rights and preserving a free society from an oppressive government. Thus Madison wrote the 2nd Amendment. This is where I get my reasoning behind the amendment. We may disagree, but I think that the founders concerns about firearms and some the same concerns people who are for gun control have today and thus why they support it.
Wince:
Ignoring the racist intentions behind the first gun control laws would be wrong on many levels, not just factually. Also, I believe Malcolm X was right that African-Americans should own weapons to defend themselves from constant violence. I also saw this movie (based on historical evidence) called "Deacons for Defense" with Forrest Whittaker. It dramatizes the violence against African-Americans and their efforts to defends themselves in I believe Mississippi. I am not sure, but it wouldn't suprise me if it were true that gun control laws are enforced unfairly. These facts though I don't think are reasons to eliminate gun control laws, but instead reasons to better enforce them. Laws are enforced by people and people are flawed. Some of these laws may have gone to far. I don't know. I always thought that the majority of a society should determine that with the proviso that the federal government could not ban all weapons.
Noah
Yes, the Deacons for Defense were an example from the Civil Rights Era. Listen to this description of the DC gun ban: How exactly can such a draconian ban be harmonized with the plain language of the Second Amendment?
Yours,
Wince
I am not advocated going to the extreme of the D.C. gun law. I know that D.C. residents do like the law that they have on guns, but it is not my position. But purely as an intellectual debate, I can justify it like this: The second amendment applies to the federal government and not to the states or localities.
There is one problem with this. Congress, under the constitution, is supposed to jurisdiction over D.C. Thus even though this is local law. Indirectly, it may be considered a federal law, because the city council was set up under federal law. I don't know if the Supreme Court or the Circuit Court of D.C. or the District Court of D.C. has ever heard any suit on this issue. I would not be surprised if they had not because while this does seem like a extreme law to all who acknowledge that there is a right to keep and bear arms the citizens of D.C. are very liberal and do not have any problem with this.
Noah
I re-read your post of 5:54 and noticed that you used the words "common usage." I did not see this the first time. Yet your example with regards to restaurants demonstrates my point. Restaurants have health which they must follow. They can't serve food that is prepared in a manner that is a detriment to public health. Just as the gun industry cannot manufacture and sell certain weapons in some states or localities that are considered by those states to be a detriment to public safety. Now this provision goes beyond this to say that individuals can't own active weapons that states consider a detriment to public safety. This though is similiar to an obscenity law with regards to the first amendment. Once again, I admit that this is more restrictive than the obscenity law is, but I think that is due to the qualifying language in the document and the nature of the thing being regulated.
Noah
Only if you are concerned about the "original intent" of the Framers". Obviously, if you could care less about the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment the definition of "well-regulated" that was used by its drafters, would be of no import to you.
In Dred Scott v. Sandford, the Taney Court in 1857 found that the freed African Slave, Dred Scott, was somehow less than a person capable of being an American citizen (despite what the State of Illinois might think), to wit:
The Supremes also sided with the Klu Klux Klan and local racists government in United States v. Cruikshank in 1872, which also demonstrates how "racists" used "gun control laws" to deny other "civil rights" to the freed blacks in South and immigrants in the North. Interestingly, the Supremes in Cruikshank thought that neither the 1st nor the 2nd Amendments could be applied to the States, as the blacks in question "rights of assembly" were also okay, to wit:
Of course, your cite - "Presser" - is interesting, considering the fact that you are professed former union membership, as it involved immigrant union workers rights. In Presser v. Illinois (1886) the
Like Cruickshank, the Supremes in Presser attempted to limit the import of the 14th Amendment. Subsequent cases have changed this mid-19th century understanding of 14th Amendment implications regarding applying the "Bill of Rights" to the States, to wit:
Even if you believe, as you apparently do, that "the People's right to keep and bear arms" is merely a "privilege", it would appear that in both Cruickshank and Presser (as in Dred Scott before them) the Supreme "blow it" when they limited the effect of the 14th Amendment!
My reference to Mein Kampf also has a historical validity as when the Nazi's used the Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 to deprived Jews and others (considered by the Nazi as being non-persons) their "right" to "keep and ear arms". This was much the same way that the Taney court deprived the "non-persons" known as African Slaves their "human rights" in Dred Scott.
If self-defense (and it means) is a "RIGHT", then neither the Supremes nor the Nazis can "infringe" upon it. However, if, as Mikeye opined, it is a mere "government endowed privilege", then both the Nazis and Southern racists could of course deny same to those they choose to define as "non-persons". The point being that "racism", whether its source is Hitler's Mein Kampf or the "Three-Fifths Compromise" of the Constitutional Convention, can only deprive men of their "human rights" if their "human rights" are merely "government endowed provoleges".
How can you compare exercising one's "right" of self-defense to creating "obscenity"? Outlawing obscenity is possible, despite the 1st Amendment, because, first, the "speech and press" antipated is "political", just like the "assembly and petition rights" of that Amendment. And even if the "speech and press" protected is not limited to "political", no "Right" may be exercised to do "evil" (such as creating "obscenity"), only "good". That is why the Founders opined that the Republic they founded could not last without a "moral and ethical" people. An "immoral and unethical" people cannot be trusted to properly exercise "rights", such the "right to keep and bear arms".
This going be the last time I going to post in response to you if you can't debate somebody civilly. Anyway, first as to your statement that Dred Scott was a position of the Supreme Court. You are right this was a ruling of the Supreme Court. One that was later reversed. So was Korematsu. So Bush v. Gore. These are all decisions I was not a fan of when I learned of them. Yet that doesn't change the fact the Supreme Court has ruled many, many times on your reading of the constitution and said that they don't agree with you. I have my position. I believe I explained it well and it was good enough position to convince the Supreme Court. Until they change their ruling, it still stands. Or of course, if an amendment to constitution is passed. That would be interested, because it would be the first amendment to an amendment.
As to the KKK case, another case that was bad. I have also already admitted that gun control laws were used in the South as racist tools. This does not mean that current gun control laws are racist or unconstitutional or not good policy.
Concerning your Mein Kampf reference, the Jews had already lost a lot of their rights with Nuremberg Laws and subsequent laws. Owning weapons would probably changed what happened. An example to demonstrate this is the Warsaw Uprising. But that of course is a historical hypothetical and not proof. Yet, if your saying that it was the Nazi Gun laws that was encroachment on freedom and the ultimate reason for the Holocaust than you are making a claim that no historian would make.
When Wince rebuked you (Sorry Wince if I am going to put words in your mouth), I believe he was refering to your statement
"You mean in the sense that "political free speech, press, and assembly" are "privileges", or that the right to express one's religion faith is some sort of government granted "privilege"? Where did you get that idea from? Mein Kampf?"
This was not a statement trying to compare my argument to relevant historical example about Nazi Gun Laws, but a not to subtle attempt to equate me with Nazis, because I advocate a position with which you disagree. You may deny it, but it is pretty obvious.
Finally, as to your point that self-defense is a right and must be defended, I would say yes it is right. I would disagree with you that voting is privilege. I think it is a right and responsibility. One of the most influential political treatises that guided our Founders to their construction of the Constitution was John Locke's "Two Treatises of Government." In this document, he discusses the idea of social compact. He states that in a state of anarchy, which is the natural state, man has all rights given to him by G-d. Yet in this state of anarchy, man is unprotected from the assaults by his neighbors. Thus man forms a social compact (or is it convenant) with his neighbors to give up some freedoms to obtain security. This is from where I get my ideas. Once again, I will state that I believe in the right to keep and bear arms, I just don't think its absolute.
Noah
1)
How should one interpret "arms"?
If I follow the argument of this thread post, one must look to the textual purpose of the amendment: securing liberty from a potentially tyrannical government. The first 13 words are expansive, rather than restrictive, and informs the definition of "arms."
This purpose, taken at face value, sweeps more broadly than what gun-rights advocate propose. For the 2nd Amendment to be effective at this purpose, "arms" must be an amount of firepower sufficient to defeat the US Armed Forces. (and why would the Framers draft an ineffective 2nd amendment - one that makes it close fight, but no cigar?).
Because most gun-rights advocates (justifiably) do not propose this amount of judicial protection, I must ask how one can justify dialing the definition of "arms" to a size insufficient for the claimed purpose of the 2nd amendment. I hear one of two arguments:
i) Originalist. The "arms" contemplated at the time of enactment fired projectiles; or
ii) Public safety requires it.
Neither of these arguments, as employed here, have a limiting principle that - as far as I can see - would be acceptable to gun-rights advocates.
i) The originalist argument, as I understand it, is usually one employed to say that a) Enactors had X in mind when they wrote the language, and thought X was permitted by the language; or that b) Enactors had X in mind, thought it was permitted; and (uncontemplated) Y is like X in relevant respects.
Assuming that the Enactors did not have those modern armaments sufficient to defeat the US armed forces in mind, we will look to (b). Here, the relevant 2nd amendment purpose would be the ability to protect oneself from tyranny by the US, by force. With respect to this purpose, there is no distinction between projectile-firing and other armaments.
"Originalism" is used in this context, I think, in a way that it usually is not: c) to restrict constitutional protection to only those things contemplated by the Framers (X), and to deny constitutional protection to (uncontemplated) Ys. However, ruling out armaments with much greater firepower as not "arms" because they weren't in contemplation is probably unsatisfactory - unless one is satisfied with 2nd amendment protection limited to muzzle-loaders, etc.
ii) Public safety. This is the entire discussion at issue. By itself, it implicates any "absolute" character of a 2nd amendment right.
2)
My other, political, question is the following: Almost everybody can see relevant (w/respect to safety) differences between carrying a rifle in the woods, and carrying a 9 in a parking lot. Politically, I would think that this would be an easy argument to make. I am simply unsure how much judicial protection hunting really requires. Therefore, the real question in my mind is why carrying a gun in the presence of other people should be judicially protected.
If the argument is that carrying a firearm in the presence of other people is required to secure personal safety, I have to ask whether the state of nature, Hobbes, Locke, etc. didn't make a persuasive case that this is precisely the need for the State. I would also ask whether questions regarding measures taken to protect citizens from violence should at least be up for democratic debate.
If the argument is that carrying a firearm in the presence of other people is required for protection from the State, then I have to go back and ask question (1) - how to interpret "arms" - and then ask if it is also necessary to have the right to carry all of these armaments in the presence of other persons. Personally, I cannot imagine that the Framers, as influenced by the state of nature, etc. would accept such a situation.
James Madison prefaced his proposed "Bill of Rights" the following prologue:
Apparently, Madison thought "the People" retained an "indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their government right". Without an equal "indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right" to "keep and bear arms", just how do you suppse Madison thought "the People" might exercise their "indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their government"?
Of course Madison didn't believe that the Constitution required a "Bill of Rights" - something he only agreed to in order to have his State of Virginia ratify the Constitution. Also his version of the 2nd Amendment didn't make the Congressional cut, to wit:
Please note Madison's "proposed" punctuation - "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" stands on it's own. The idea of "a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country" is a completely separate thought reflecting on the preference of a "people's militia" to a "large standing army" for National Defense. Also note that Madison's "conscientious objection" clause also was omitted. The interesting thing is that obviously Madison believed that every person must particiate in the "militia", providing their own "firearms and kit". These were defined in the The Militia Act of 1792, to wit:
Note that the "musket or firelock" was the "assault rifle" of the period. Apparently our Founders didn't have a problem with "each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years" being armed with their "personal assault rifle". Of course, in 1792, "a good rifle" was considered far more "deadly" than the standard issue military "musket or firelock". The Founders, unlike the "gun controllers" of today, insisted that "the People" possess their own MILITARY TYPE weapons. If they were with us today, they would insist that "the People" own the equivalent of a M-162A, in order to be prepared to dfend the Nation, or overthrow a tyrant.
What part of "shall not be infringed" eludes you?
Actually it has never been reversed. Instead, it was superceded by Amendemnts, to wit:
Neither was Korematsu nor was Bush v. Gore.
Of course it was this "the Taney Court" type of thinking that directly lead to Civil War and death of over 500,000 Americans - more than have been lost in all our other wars combined.
BTW, I believe it was you, and not I, who touted the infallibility of the Supremes as the true meaning of things Constitutional.
Really? Do you have any idea what the "demographics" of the Washington, DC happens to be?
First, my infamous Mein Kampf response to begin with was directed not to any comment of yours - why you would take offense, other than paranoia, escapes me.
Be that as it may, you completely misunderstand just what allowed both Slavery and the Holocaust. In the case of American Slavery, it was most clearing defined in Chief Justice Taney's majority opinion in Dred Scott. In the case of Holocaust, it was most clearly expressed in Hitler's Mein Kampf. Simply put, it is that there are NO "Creator endowed rights" - merely government allowed "privileges". Perhaps I made my point too finely - however, our Framers made the same point when they ratified the 2nd Amendment, forbidding "government", at any level, to "infringe" on "the People's RIGHT to keep and bear arms".
Not quite. First, the 1935 Nuremberg Laws merely prohibited marriages and extra-marital intercourse between “Jews ” (the name was now officially used in place of “non-Aryans ”) and “Germans” and also the employment of “German ” females under forty-five in Jewish households (The Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor) and excluded the Jews from German citizenship (The Reich Citizenship Law). However, there was no legal constraint on Jewish firearms ownership until 1938 when the Nazi Firearms Laws were enacted. Of course, a mere formality like "no controlling legal authority" did not really prevent the Nazis from raiding Jewish homes and shops and taking their weapons.
While you could be right that disarming the Jews may not have been necessary for the Nazis bring off the Holocaust, it might have been interesting to see just what would hve happened had the SS and Gestapo sent to collect the Jews been greeted with a gunshot. I imagine it might have made SS and Gestapo recruitment a tad bit harder.
Considering I wasn't even referencing anything you had stated, I find you delusions quite amazing. Of course, the Nazis saw "the People's" ownership of firearms, a State granted "privilege" rather than a "an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right". I suppose if you see the same way, then the shoe just might fit.
When you're right, you're right. I took offense at first when you called me a racist and then I had just been reading post above and did not realize the Mein Kampf reference wasn't for me. The point is that by automatically equating somebody's position with despised and generally insulting positions when they haven't said anything of the sort is generally considered rude.
I said: "Yet that does not mean that the state has no reasonable right to regulate."
You said: "In Washington, DC your "reasonable right to regulate" is a total prohibition of private ownership of firearms - yet DC has the highest crime/murder rate in the US. Apparently the government of Washington, DC is failing to secure "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (property)" for "the People" of the District. Go figure!"
It is always those that appeal to extremes that have least educational to say. I am sorry that I was mistaken, when you were calling me a racist, I thought you were calling me a Nazi, as well. As to point about Washington, D.C. Have you every been there? I went school there for four years. I lived the city. I kinda know the demographics. Its a small area. Only 10 sq. miles. I know it is about 85%-90% black.
Do you know that the citizens of Washington were only given this incarnation of self-rule (The D.C. city Council) in the 1970's? In that period, they have eliminated the death penalty, legalized medical marijuana, passed this gun ban and very many other things. It's a liberal city. But the citizens, (you know those black people), they vote for their leaders. Their last two mayors, they were African-American (OHHHHH!). Their delgate to Congress, an African-American women (NOOOOO!). And most of their city council, they're African-American too. Merely because I express a position that something is reasonable, does not mean I take it to its extreme. Secondly, to imply that I advocated or that the government is pursuing a policy that may be bad and may lead to higher crime rate rather than lower, as they intended, is trying to murder their citizens is foolish and mean-spirited for no reason. The people of D.C. approve of this law. They know their crime rate.
Maybe its a bad law, but that does not mean that they came to the conclusion you have about the law or your interpretation of the Constitution. And since the Supreme Court approved of their position and not yours, you still have to live with it. If its so oppressive, then why haven't you rebelled yet? I didn't like Bush v. Gore and but I lived with it because we set up a system where the executive executes, the legislatures legislates and the judiciary interprets the law. I understand these institutions will make mistakes, but I believe that so far they've done pretty good. If I felt it was so oppressive, I would exercise my right given to me by G-d to overthrow those laws through amendment or threw other means (And now I am going to be spied on).
To answer you're points about the Dred Scott decision and the Korematsu decision and whether it is still precendent, I am going to point out two later cases. The first is the Brown vs. Board of Education. Brown v. Board of Education as you know overruled the Plessy v. Ferguson law, but it also overruled Dred Scott. In several ways. First, Brown was given federal standing. This is something that Dred Scott was not given. Thus it either of in an of itself gave standing or it relied on precedent. Seconly, Taney famously said that "no black man has a rights that need to be respected by a white" (paraphrase, not direct quotes). Brown said that people were separate but equal. Precedent remains precedent, even if an intervening amendment to constitution change the orignal interpretation until that ruling is overturned, it still the Supreme Court's precedent. Now thaat doesn't mean its the law, but it does mean that it is precedent. The definition of precedent as provided by findlaw is:
a judicial decision that should be followed by a judge when deciding a later similar case
(see also stare decisis)
(compare dictum)
Note: To serve as precedent for a pending case, a prior decision must have a similar question of law and factual situation. If the precedent is from the same or a superior jurisdiction (as the state's supreme court), it is binding upon the court and must be followed; if the precedent is from another jurisdiction (as another state's supreme court), it is considered only persuasive. Precedents may be overruled esp. by the same court that originally rendered the decision.
Korematsu was overturned when the Supreme Court allowed the Japanese affected by Roosevelt's executive order to sue and seek damages in the 1980's. This case is Korematsu v. United States, 584 F.Supp. 1406 (1984).
American citizen of Japanese ancestry petitioned for writ of coram nobis to vacate his 1942 conviction for being in a place from which all persons of Japanese ancestry were excluded pursuant to a civilian exclusion order. The Government filed cross motion to dismiss the prosecution against petitioner. The District Court, held that petitioner was entitled to writ of coram nobis to vacate his conviction where there was substantial
support in the record for proposition that Government deliberately omitted relevant information and provided misleading information in the papers before court concerning whether the actions taken were reasonably related to the security and defense of the nation and the prosecution of the war, where Government failed to rebut petitioner's certificate setting forth collateral consequences he believed he suffered and would continue to
suffer as result of the 1942 conviction and where Government failed to rebut petitioner's showing of timeliness. Petition granted and countermotion denied.
Noah
Note also that they insist that they're only interested in crime control, yet seem uninterested in removing gun control measures that haven't reduced crime. Surely if they're going to make "let's try it" arguments, they should be willing to undo failed experiments.
There was and is no registration of guns in New Orleans. I live in New Orleans. Louisiana (and New Orleans) has some of the loosest gun control laws in the country and liberal concealed carry laws, yet it has the one of the highest murder and violent crime rates. And it hardly coddles criminals either. It also has the most (in absolute numbers, not even adjusted for population) inmates serving life without parole. There is no other kind of life sentence in Louisiana--a life sentence means you are going to die in jail.
Yet, by the same token, every time gun control advocates point out statistics that indicate that loose gun control laws have very little impact on crime or the lack of any real causal connection between gun ownership and lower crime rates and that the states with the loosest gun laws also tend to have the highest violent crime rates, gun advocates find some excuse that explain away the paucity of their argument. Or when it is pointed out that of all developed nations, the U.S., for all its guns and the least gun regulation (even countries like Switzerland where gun advocates like to point out, practically every household has a military assault rifle, the weapons are strictly regulated and registered), consistently has the highest violent crime rates, especially when it comes to gun violence, the fault is always "cultural differences", not the availability of guns.
Then we have the silly notion that "registration inevitably leads to confiscation". This is of course nonsense. Most developed countries have strict registration schemes and most citizens in those countries are allowed to own firearms for sporting countries. There are a number of countries that have quite a high gun ownership rate (e.g., Canada, Germany, Australia), with very strict gun registration regimes. Granted, the concept of gun ownership for self defense is considered legitimate only in very limited circumstances and guns are generally registered for sporting purposes only. But the fact remains that sportsmen possess hunting and sporting guns under very strict registration and licensing schemes in these countries.
You mentioned two key reasons for supporting some form/amount of [state-based] gun control.
The first was the relation of guns to violent crime. Please elaborate on the experience of any jurisdiction in the world that has instituted gun control for the purpose of reducing crime and succeeded in reducing crime.
The second was your reading of the 2nd Amdt - that the right to keep and bear arms depends on the militia. You unfortunately have the dependency backwards - there can be no militia ("necessary to the security of a free state") if the people do not have arms. Now, we can certainly debate the necessity of the militia (given that we don't have one today and are still quite arguably free); but even concluding it no longer being so, that does not affect the underlying right of the people. The most definitive ruling by SCotUS, and it is one of poor legal quality, is U.S. v. Miller (1938). Had the 2nd applied only to the state militias, not individuals, SCotUS would have punted the case as they did Newdow, for lack of standing. They did not. They remanded the case for evidentiary hearings with the standard that if the gun in question was useful for militia purposes, the 2nd protected it's possession. And there the case mooted.
You perfect the circular argument. Of course places where guns are more common will have more gun crime. The question is what is the effect on ALL crime. I offer you the same challenge as Noah, name any place that has instituted gun control to reduce crime, and done so successfully. Britain for example would not count, as they did not implement gun control in response to crime and in fact, crime has risen despite gun control there.
By the way, Wyoming gun laws are about as "loose" as Louisana. Crime there is a different matter (violent crime less then half, the murder rate 1/5th). How do you account for that? Surely it isn't the gun laws and guns.
Since I am a state champion pistol shooter, a life member of the NRA, a nominee for the now defunct American Handgunner award, and a strong promoter of Second Amendment rights, I am certainly not a gun confiscating liberal. (Note the apeal to authority, I thought it a nice change from ad hominem arguments.) I just think that if you can't win on judicial grounds you have to appeal to the legislative/political/ popular opinion side of things. Making sure that there are legal protections for concealed carry is one of those ways. Even the NRA is opting for these laws.
I would posit that California is an example of a state that banned assault weapons and thus reduced crime. In 1989, California passed a ban on assault weapons. This law went into effect in 1992. By 1994, murders began to be reduced and have continued to go down.
I am also going to quote the Brady centers answer to your question. While the Brady Center is obviously not impartial, you can check their evidence and prove me wrong:
"Gun traces are one of the best measures of gun usage in crime. In 1999, the National Institute of Justice reported that trace requests for assault weapons in the 1993-95 period declined 20% in the first calendar year after the ban took effect, dropping from 4,077 in 1994 to 3,268 in 1995. Over the same time period, gun murders declined only 10% and trace requests for all types of guns declined 11 percent, clearly showing a greater decrease in the number of assault weapons traced in crime.[8]
This same study also reported that the number of assault weapons traced in St. Louis and Boston declined 29% and 24% respectively, as a share of all guns recovered in crime, during late 1995 and into 1996.
In addition, a study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence (formerly the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence) found that, in Maryland, whose ban on assault pistols took effect in June 1994, the number of assault pistols recovered by Baltimore police in the first six months of 1995 fell by 45 percent from the first six months of 1994.[9]"
You might think that my legal argument is not convincing. You might also think that the case U.S. v. Miller was decided poorly and also the opinion is of poor legal quality. But it is the opinion of the SCOTUS and it has been upheld numerous times. I believe that it was decided correctly. I think that SCOTUS was right when they said that people retain the right to keep and bear arms, but that right is not absolute and can be regulated.
As to your point that I am reading the amendment backwards, I do not think so. Civilians do not need to own weapons for them to participate in a militia. Today, in the National Guard and the military forces, a person does bring the weapon that they will use with them into the military. Remember, the thinking of the founders was that if the federal government becomes oppressive, it will be the states who rebel, not individuals. This is, of course, how it happened during the Civil War. Secondly, we notice in the Militia Act that every member of the militia is supposed to buy their own arms within six months of becoming part of the militia. This was done because, the states didn't have enough money to supply everybody with a weapon. Not because they thought everybody would or should have a weapons. Firearms are more prevalent today than they were in the past.
Finally, just because the founders saw no reason to regulate at the time does not mean they felt their was no reason to regulate weapons or that the state shouldn't.
Noah
Considering that "assault weapons" were never commonly used in murder, to what do you attribute this amazing result? Even better, what was the causation between the banning of "assault weapons" and the drop in NON-GUN homicide? If that is what passes for evidence for you, then I doubt there is much that your credulity would filter out.
I wish you would think for yourself rather then quoting a marginally truthful organization. Why you might ask?
The govt categorically states that this is not true. Now, who is in a better position to know this - the Brady bunch or the people that actually collect/process the data? See Kopel for details.
Of course the right isn't absolute. Neither is the right to free speech, or freedom of worship. But are you seriously trying to argue that the RKBA is treated like those now? If it were I am sure we would not be having this disagreement.
If you had a clue as to what a militia is, you would not say that. The NG is NOT the militia - it exists as per Congress's authority to raise armies, not under regulation of the militia (and these are indeed distinct powers in Article II).
Oh good lord, NOT Bellesiles. Do you not realize how totally discredited his work is?
Uh-huh. So, if a state decided to have an official church and require all residents to support and attend that denomination, that wouldn't run afoul of the 1st Amdt because the founders didn't prevent the states from doing so explicitly. Yes, the states can regulate gun possession, under their general police power. Funny though how that police power IS limited by the 4th and 5th Amdts.
No. It's a tautology that places with no guns will have no gun crime, but it isn't true that places with more guns will have more gun crime. It's true in some cases and untrue in others.
BTW - During DC's worst years, it didn't have the highest murder rate in the US. During at least a couple of those years, that "honor" belonged to East Palo Alto CA, which had 3x DC's rate. (DC was merely the worst of the bigger cities.) East Palo Alto is next to Palo Alto, a city that has a murder every decade or so. (One of the last two was committed by some folks from EPA.)
PA and EPA have the exact same gun laws, roughly the same population density, and PA is likely to have more guns per capita than EPA. (Gun ownership is correlated with wealth.)
Firstly, with regards to militia, I am history major and have studied the revolutionary war. A militia was a state organization created to defend the state from outside enemies and from internal distress. Militias were citizen organizations with weapons. They had specific purposes and were governed by the state. This is evident in the fact that the British in 1775 were going after a weapons depot in Lexington. This is evident in the fact that in 1781, when Nathaniel Greene was confronting the British, Thomas Jefferson, commander and chief of the Virginia militia, did not want to give Greene authority over his troops. Oh yeah, I forgot about how George Washington who was a Colonel in Virginia militia in the 1750's organized the defense of Western Virginia under the orders of the Virginia legislature.
Second, honestly I was tired and didn't want to do to much research so I went to a site that gave evidence that you asked for. I notice that you did not dispute the evidence given by the National Institute of Justice.
Third, I pointed out in many earlier posts that the language, the history and the legal rulings of the Supreme Court demonstrate that firearms can be regulated, but they can not all be banned. Whether you agree with me or not, there is the opinion made by the Supreme Court and the American people through their legislators with the Brady Act. The police power of the government is most certainly restricted in the 4th and 5th amendment, but that doesn't mean that the state doesn't have the power to regulate firearms. We not meant to trust the executive completely, but that does not mean the state doesn't have the power to make laws.
Finally, I am sorry I was incorrect about the prevalence of guns in the 18th century. I actually never the read the book, I heard about it. The second and gun control are not my issues. I am really fine with concealed carry laws and am not sure about whether banning assault weapons has helped to prevent horrific violence. On that note, we in California, as I said above, have had some of the worst gun violence: the drive-by was invented in L.A and these use assault weapons a lot. Getting back to the point though, I actually didn't remember the authors' name. I apologize sincerely for offering evidence, which I did not research full and had no idea was disproven.
Noah
As a student of early American history you must also know how ineffective the militia actually was, both during the Revolution and in the early days of the Republic. The truth is the militia almost never functioned as the Founders hoped. We have subsequently found that an army of citizen-soldiers is an effective national defense without threatening the security of our free state. Again, given the dependence of the militia on the people being armed, it isn't important. If indeed the dependence was as you supposed, then there would be no individual right of ANY scope. And you do seem to believe there is an individual right.
The problem is that I asked for data, that to the best of my knowledge, does not exist. There is no place that has implemented gun control in order to reduce crime and actually seen crime reduced. Nor is there likely to be any kind of causal relationship between guns and non-gun crime, no?
As to your third point, you have basically parrotted the Brady line, which again is not true. Courts have indeed ruled against gun control. Read up on Presser - it was about parading armed. Another mis-cited case is Cruikshank. These were both pre-incorporation cases which means they are essentially moot as doctrine. The Brady bunch, and not a few appellate courts, have mangled Miller - though none more spectacularly then the 9th Circuit in Hickman v. Block.
It hasn't. It was a knee-jerk response to one nutcase shooting up a school. Please don't bring up the North Hollywood bank robbery as they were using fully automatic weapons (which were illegal BEFORE the AW ban and the incident happened 8 years after). This is where you are lacking in facts and simply using anecdote and/or myth as your 'evidence'. Please do some real research to support your opinion (or change your opinion based on your research). No hard feelings and best of luck to you in your studies.
The reason why gun advocates do not emphasize the presence of the first clause of the Second Amendment is because it leads into the discussion we had above. :) The gun rights advocate gets into things like how a dependent clause explains but does not limit, and the definition of 'well-regulated' that historical fiction aficionadoes know reflexively, but it never seems to matter.
It does not require the presence of the 'well regulated militia' clause for the Supreme Court to put reasonable limits on the right to keep and bear arms, as you say. There are no such clauses in the First Amendment, and yet the Supreme Court has put reasonable limitations upon the right of freedom of speech. It seems obvious that the presence or lack thereof of such explanatory clauses makes little difference in the Supreme Court's rulings on various amendments - the last of which on the second amendment, as stated above, being very long ago and not a great example for many reasons.
The question becomes where the line is drawn, who draws it, and when. (And if drawn incorrectly, what redress exists.)
(You should take this as an agreement with your primary argument, while I'm guessing that I have a different idea than you as to where to draw the line and why.)
As I said above, I have not seen evidence that gun control laws either fail to control or have no effect on crime. One of the real problems in studying this issue that crime has so many reasons that it is difficult to determine one way or the other. There are instances where gun bans were passed and a reduction in crime (specifically gun violence) has occured and instances where gun bans were passed and there was no reduction in gun violence or an increase. I have also seen instances when concealed carry laws were passed and gun violence has increased and cases with concealed carry laws and gun violence decreased. This does not mean the state has no compelling interest in regulating weapons, just that a majority of the people have to make a determination that such regulations are good policy.
With regards to an individual right, I have always felt the amendment asserted not only the right to keep and bear arms, but also enshrined the right to self-defense. The militia was designed to be a self-defense against an oppressive government and the individual right is a self-defense against violent assaults by criminals. The militia was never effective fighting force. George Washington, Hamilton and other American regular army officers constantly complained about the militia and the British constantly derided the militia. Yet the idea of the citizen-soldier was an integral part of what many founders wanted to be the defense against tyranny. Remember that the founders expected a small, if any standing army and small navy. A militia force might have provided a very adequate defense of a state against this weak force. Sorry for digressing.
As to the Brady site, it does provide data through an appeal to a third party study. How accurate that study is I could not tell you? But you asked for evidence and I did a lazy job of providing it, but there is data there, which you didn't dispute.
The North Hollywood shooting incident was very big for our community. You're right that they were automatic weapons and you're right that this happened after the ban. I was using that example as an example of how California has been affected by gun violence. Yet also there was the 1989 shooting with a Tec-9 and many other incidents that has so shocked this state that we used the authority granted to the state to regulate weapons.
Presser did involve the armed parading and military drills, but it was also the first case that demonstrated that the states can regulate weapons. Presser said that an independent group of individuals parade, like a militia or other military unit, in the streets. The California ban has been challenged and upheld. Other bans, in other states have been challenged and upheld. If the court has actually overturned a ban or other regulation, I would be suprised. I have never heard of such a case. The Supreme Court's opinion is pretty clear. Also I don't know why you cite Hickman v. Block, because it was not an example of the court overturing a gun control measure. As the Court says "Whatever the Amendment may mean, it is a bar only to federal action, not extending to state or private3 restraints. The Supreme Court has given effect to the dependent clause of the Amendment in the only case in which it has tested a congressional enactment against the constitutional prohibition, seeming to affirm individual protection but only in the context of the maintenance of a militia or other such public force." This is the opinion of the court.
Luagha:
Every word of the constitution except the preamble has an effect on the rights given to people, the powers given or denied to government and so on. As is stated above, the court has said that the dependent clause is not explanatory, but has an effect. As U.S. v. Miller says:
"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument."
Miller goes on to say:
"With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view."
Thus it was expected that people would own such weapons or have them by six months of enrolling in a militia as the Militia Act of 1792 points out. The expectation that people would own such weapons for the militia and all men between certain ages would be part of the mlitia allows us to assume that the second amendment is also an individual right.
But the second amendment is unlike any other right granted under the Bill of Rights. While there are limits on speech and free exercise of religion and some means to conduct warrantless searches, these rights cannot be regulated. You can't regulate speech where you have to register the speech or the religious practice. The legislature cannot make any law respecting those rights. OTOH, the legislature can make laws respecting the right to keep and bear arms.
Finally, I don't where the line should be drawn. That's a policy question that I do not feel confident enough in knowledge of the issue to state a definitive position. My purpose in this thread was to demonstrate that regulations on the right to keep and bear arms are not repugnant to a reading of the constitution.
Noah
Please cite a real example of where a gun control law reduced a set of gun-related crimes. The CA AW ban would require you to show the reduction in AW ONLY crime (murder, robberies, etc), as it would be pretty silly to claim that the AW ban somehow reduced crime with revolvers. You claim there is such data, please, let us see it.
I'd like to hear the specifics of that as well.
Presser was about two aspects: 1) 'private' militia and 2) parading with arms. You really cammot infer from that a general power to license/register/prohibit firearms ownership by individuals. And again, this is pre-incorporation - the decision was based on a view of the Bill of Rights only applying to the federal govt. That is not our current doctrine.
Also, I mention Hickman because if you read the "facts" they drew from Miller (e.g. SCotUS upheld a conviction - it did not, etc.) it is quickly clear that the 9th did not even read Miller but referenced it as a talisman. Secondly, they and you, adhere to a pre-incorporation view of the 2nd Amdt when there is absolutely no logical reason to assert that the 14th incorporates some rights but not others. Yes, SCotUS has done extactly that, and they have been criticized (in dissents) for doing so.
To the extent that those regulations meet the requirements that would be applied to 1st, 4th, 5th Amdt etc. - I agree. Unfortunately, you seem to feel that the militia clause enables a broader regulation. You would accept more curtailment of the RKBA then you would freedom of speech. That simply is not justifiable on a constitutional basis.
Most people define assault weapons, as military-style weaponry. The more specific definitions are provided by the laws themselves. These laws state limits on the magazine, the grip, fold-up stock and so on. An example is a Tec-9 or Uzi.
Juris:
As I said above, I am not going to get into a debate any further on the merits of this public policy. I do not know enough about it and I said so when I offered you the evidence of gun control advocates. As, I said above the Brady site does offer evidence from a THIRD-PARTY SOURCE, which you have not disputed.
By the time Miller was decided, the Bill of Rights had already been incorporated to apply to the states. Secondly, you still haven't demonstrated to me that I was inccrrect. Hickman, never went to the Supreme Court, so I don't know how you can say that they said the 9th reading of it was wrong. Secondly, though dissents say that the Supreme Court's and my reading of the Constitution is wrong, they still dissents and until they become majorities, no matter how much you or I argue they remain the force of law. I don't think I will be able to convince that the dependent clause of the amendment has effect. I asked question before, but it was never answered:
Aren't all the words of the constitution, except the preamble, meant to have an effect in law?
Noah
What is it about the concept of "shall not be infringed" that eludes you?
To "regulate" a "right", is to "infringe" upon that "right". In the case of the National Firearms Act of 1934 it is the "power" to tax that "right". Our Founders believed that the "power to tax is the power to destroy". If anything, the 2nd Amendment, unlike the 1st, is a restraint on ALL levels of government (and not just the US Congress) to "infringe" on "the People's right to keep and bear arms". "We, the People" of the Preamable (the ones who are delegating a limited amount of their sovereignty to the new Federal Republic) and "the People" of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 9th and 10th Amendments are all one and the same.
Had the Framers intended to permit Federal "regulation" of "the People's right to keep and bear Arms", they would have placed such a clause in Article I Section 8. Please note where the author, James Madison, suggested placing the 2nd Amendment. It was placed, along with the rest of his "Bill of Rights" - in Article I Section 9, the section of the Constitution that places "specific limitations" on the "powers" of the Federal government, especially the Congress, to wit:
There is absolutely no way the 2nd Amendment could ever be interpreted as a grant of "power" or "authority" to the Federal government to "regulate" - "the People's right to keep and bear Arms"!
The reason for the "absence of any evidence" before the Supreme Court in Miller was because only the government presented evidence and briefs in the case. Mr. Miller and friend had long since absconded when the Federal District Court refused to convict for violations under the National Firearms Act of 1934 on 2nd Amendement grounds. Of course, Miller did not vacate the District Court decision in Miller, it merely "reversed and remanded" the case back to the District Court to collect additional evidence, to wit:
The purpose of the "further proceedings" was to gather additional evidence that the "short-barrelled shotguns" involved in the Miller case had "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia", which in fact it did.
Unfortunately the District Court could not locate Mr. Miller and friend so the case was dropped. Had Justice McReynolds bothered to look he would have found that "Short-barrelled shotguns" had always been used by the US military: first on US Naval vessels and US privateers, as weapons to facilitate "boarding" operations during the Revolution (a "blunderbuss" is "a short musket of wide bore and flaring muzzle, formerly used to scatter shot at close range"); in the territories and in the West fighting Indians; in the Phillipines fighting the Moros (BTW, American Special Forces are still fighting Moro terrorists today); in the European trenches of WWI fighting the "Hun"; and in the Caribbean and Central America by the Marines fighting in the "Banana Wars". In fact, "short-barrelled shotguns", like the Ithaca Model 37 "Duckbill" (see "bunderbuss") were the "weapon of choice" favored by US Marines and Soldiers "walking point" in Vietnam, while fighting the Vietcong and NVA.
The primary firearms "taxed and registered" by the National Firearms Act of 1934 were short-barrelled shotguns (a.k.a. "sawed-off shotguns") and fully automatic firearms such as the Thompson Submachine Gun (which was used by all branches of US Military and National Guard from just after WWI right up until the end of the Vietnam War). Based on Justice McReynolds' Miller opinion, had Mr. Miller been charged with possessing an "unregistered and untaxed" "Thompson", in all likelihood the National Firearms Act of 1934 would have been over-turned on 2nd Amendment grounds.
Unfortunately for you, the Miller opinion can be read either way, to wit:
The current Federal understanding of "the militia" includes the following:
Apparently, if your reading of Miller is correct, old farts like me, and the ladies may be "disarmed" by the Feds, as we are no longer members of the "militia". Perhaps that is another reason that the "ERA" should have been ratified!
Unlike our Founders, but just like most "tyrants", such as, Hitler, Stalin, and King George, you seem to think that "rights" are "given to people" by their "government". That is totally wrong! According to the founding document of our country, the Declaration of Independence, our "Rights" come from God, to wit:
The reason the Framers did not include a "Bill of Rights" in the Constitution was because they felt that adding such might indicate that the Federal government it "instituted" had the "power" or "authority" to in someway "alienate" these "rights" held by "the People". Based on your intrepretation, I guess they were correct.
What you and most "all powerful" government proponents fail to comprehend is that the 2nd Amendment is a limitation on government. A "check and balance" on the Feds as important as the three branches. Of all the Amendments, only the 2nd provides "the People" the final "fail safe" expressed in the Declaration of Independence "to alter or to abolish" a government that has "becomes destructive to these ends ("to secure these rights")".
If, as you say, that "the legislature can make laws respecting the right to keep and bear arms", then government can "alienate" the "right of the People" to "abolish" it. None of the Founders ever expressed such an idea. In fact, every one of them was totally behind the concept that the BEST safeguard of liberty was an armed people. I suggest that you read the Federalist Papers, especially Madison's Federalist #46, where he defends Constitution's delegated power to the Federal government to have an standing Army and to make war. Take particular note of this:
To think that the author of the 2nd Amendment and Federalist #46 for one moment believed that by adding it to the Constitution he was somehow delegating to the Federal government the "power" or "authority" to "regulate" - "the People's right to keep and bear arms" is totally "repugnant"!
Really? That is interesting, considering that American Revolution, the War of 1812, the Civil War, and the Spanish American War were all fought by basically militia. Who do think the "Rough Riders" were anyway?
The Supremes have never heard a case on the California ban, or directly "on point" of the 2nd Amendment, since they "punted" on Miller! They have, in fact, been ducking "on point" 2nd Amendment cases. This is the reason Associate Justice Clarence Thomas has opined that it time the Supremes "revisit the 2nd Amendment".
I do - "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"! Truly this is not "rocket science"!
The reason I somewhat denigrated Miller in my earlier response is because Miller didn't show up. 'US' got to argue against an empty podium, which is why the phrasing "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia," is used.
As it turns out, shotguns with a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length were a critical militia weapon in the trench warfare of World War I, less than twenty years ago at the time of Miller. They continue to be used as militia weapons to this day in tight confines, like clearing houses and enclosed installations of hostiles. But with no one there to introduce that evidence to the court, the matter had to lay.
I am perfectly happy to accept a standard of 'a reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia' as a test. It fulfills my desires towards the explanatory nature of the well-regulated clause, and would certainly allow any and all semi-automatic 'assault-style' rifles - being as they are all essentially variations on the most common military firearms in use today. Yet again we come to the question of who draws the line and who gets to make the comparison to the military weapons of the day?
As regards the Brady Center's 'third party' study, it would appear you did not follow the link provided by juris imprudens.
You cite the Brady Center's approval of gun trace data. The BATFE says this at the link: The Brady Center cites the Roth report - which concludes The followup study from NIJ is here. In that document, section 6 (at page 45 of the .pdf file) is a discussion of tracing data. They note The authors summarize thusly:
The military uses "Assault Rifles", not "Assault Weapons" which is non-definitive term dreamed-up by those who wish to "ban" all firearms.
As an example: "military-style weaponry" includes the M9 Beretta 92F 9mm semi-automatic Pistol, which is the "standard-issue" sidearm for ALL US Military. Apparently this "military-style weaponry" is not "banned" by any of the so-called "assault weapons" bans. Why? It is after all "military-style weaponry". On the otherhand, the the "standard-issue" longarm is (was) the M16 which is a true "Assault Rifle".
The "Assault Rifle" first appeared in WWII when the Nazi developed their Sturmgewehr 44. "Sturmgewehr" means "assault rifle". What differentiated the "Assault Rifle" from other "military-style weaponry" was the fact that it was a "full auto" capable "selective fire" weapon that fires neither a "pistol" nor "rifle" cartridge, but instead an "intermediate rifle cartridge". Neither "the magazine, nor the grip, nor fold-up stock" makes a firearm an "assault rifle", only its cartridge and its means of firing does.
"Full auto" firearms that fire a "pistol cartridge" are also "military-style weaponry" but are known a "sub-machine guns". Examples are the Thompson (.45ACP); MP-5N (9mm) and the Uzi (9mm) (the IDF's "Assault Rifle" is ths Galil (5.56mm). BTW, the true Uzi is regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934, and not the "so called" - "Assault Weapons Ban". "Full auto" firearms that a "rifle cartridge" are known as either as a "machine gun" -example: M60 (.308Win) - or an "Automatic Rifle) -examples Browning Automatic Rifle "BAR" (.30-06Springfield) and the M14 (.308Win).
The Tec-9, BTW, is not used by any military organization that can think of (unless you consider the "Jamaican Posses" a military organizations). In function and design it differs very little from the M9 Beretta 92F 9mm semi-automatic Pistol, which is not considered an "Assault Weapon" despite being definitely "military-style weaponry". Go figure!
I have said what the law is and I given the reasons behind. Whether or not, you think Miller was decided correctly does not matter. Neal, your interpretation of Miller is not the correct no matter how many articles you cite. Miller's precedent is clear and its effect is clear.
Neal, once again you resort to ridiculous arguments and childishness, in trying to call me a tyrant or a supporter of tyranny. The rights of the people are given by G-d, but when society forms a social compact they cede some of their rights to the government so it can fulfill its purposes. This is what Locke says. We have an absolute right to keep and bear arms in nature, but when we formed our social compact the right was as stated in the amendment.
By the way, I just answered the question that was presented to me. If you want to dispute what the various assault weapons ban defines as assault weapons, you have many forums to do so, but I will not debate you anymore on those points.
Luagha, the words would not have an effect in law, if they were only explanatory. They have an effect in law and this effect was described in Miller and upheld in subsequent cases. I would be interested in any case where this interpretation was overturned, but I don't think it exists.
John:
Thank you for confronting the evidence that the Brady Center provided. I haven't checked your sources, but what say makes sense and I will examine this issue later and form an opinion on whether it is a good or bad public policy to ban assault weapons.
Noah
The Colt 1911 is a military weapon (or at least was for many, many years). It is perfectly legal in CA. As is the M1A, which is derived from the M14, but does not suffer from those nasty cosmetics that you mention. The AR-15 which has never been used by the military, but looks like an M16, is banned in CA.
The ONLY definition of an "assault weapon" is based on entirely non-functional, cosmetic characteristics. You probably didn't know this. You probably don't even really care. That makes you the typical person - ignorant about what is involved but willing to condemn something you know nothing about.
No, actually it hadn't, nor would the issue have been germane to Miller as the law in question was federal.
As to Hickman, I am talking about what the 9th Circuit claimed about Miller - and it was wildly wrong. Not simply the legal reasoning, but the undisputed facts of the case. Read Miller and then read what the 9th Circuit said about it in Hickman. Do you really think judges are infallible?
Certainly, but the dependent [militia] clause does not limit the RKBA of the people, nor does it grant a power to license/register guns to either the federal govt or the states. The states do have, under the general police power, the ability to regulate fireams insofar as allowed by state constitution, federal law and the U.S. Constitution. You surely accept that that power IS limited by the 1st, 4th, 5th Amdts, etc. - so why on earth claim that it isn't also limited by the 2nd?
They were, according to TR himself:
Thus they were not militia units, but U.S. Army (cavalry).
Although Union regiments were typically state-grouped, they served in the Army, whether enlisted or drafted, during the Civil War. Perhaps the Confederates were actually militia - that isn't a question I've really researched.
The War of 1812 is a very interesting case. The milita from several New England states refused to answer the call to service from Washington DC. In fact, those states seriously considered seceding over Mr. Madison's War.
As for the Revolutionary War, the militia was considered distinct from (and inferior to) the Continental Army. Service in the Continental Army was based on an enlistment.
Hardly. Miller is a muddle, and you can find law profs on both sides that will tell you so. It only applied to a federal law and said NOTHING to what the states may or may not do.
For example. To follow Miller literally - a firearm well suited to military use is EXEMPT from regulation, whereas hunting guns or antiques (i.e. not militarily useful) would be the ONLY guns that could be regulated. That was the test they proposed for the District Court to apply during evidentiary hearings (which never took place due to Miller's demise). This would have the effect of invalidating the statute in question - the 1934 NFA (since sawed-off shotguns has been used in the trench warfare of WWI).
One more point about Miller. You say "I would be interested in any case where this interpretation was overturned, but I don't think it exists."
Let me direct your attention here. This is an article that describes how the lower courts have abused Miller. The coup de grace is Hickman. Then have a look at what the 5th Circuit said on the subject.
You guys want to have a debate with somebody who isn't me. When I got into this debate, I saw that everyone else was arguing the gun rights side and I felt the gun control side should have some representation. I thought that since I believe in the government's power to regulate weapons I should defend. I have been stuck by my own choice in this debate for three days. There are some in America who think that all guns should be banned and there are some who feel if that right is threatened in the least than it is tyranny. Then there are others that feel that some limits on weapons, like the Brady law, are good things, but don't agree with outright bans. I am sorry I am not the ban all weapons guy that you so want to debate and defeat.
About the definition of "assault weapons," I didn't make it up. I don't really care how you define assault weapons. I would care, if I thought it was good public policy, what the law would define falls under the ban. I provided a definition that I saw used by gun control advocates. They made up the word, they must be able to define and they have in the laws that they passed. You don't like it, but you don't like the whole idea of banning certain weapons.
So what do you care what the definition of assault weapons are? It doesn't further cause or help convince people that Colt 1911 .45 is still the sidearm used by all the military or that a Tec-9 is not being used by the military, but an Uzi is used by the Israeli (although I don't know if they use it anymore) military. Or showing people that M14/M1A is allowed but the AR-15 (which no military uses, but is based off of the M-16) is banned. You're not going to convince them there. The people who voted for a ban, if there is ban, like in California, believe that gun control reduces crime. All you going to end showing these people is that they haven't yet banned all the weapons they should. You are going to convince them by showing them that such bans do not reduce crime or that concealed carry laws do reduce crime.
You have to remember your audience. In a large state with big cities that dominate like California, New York and Massachusetts, people do not have a facility with weapons. They've seen it on T.V. and they've heard about, but the likelihood that they shot a weapon or that they have a facility with weapons is low. Thus they really don't care about the difference and they believe they have the right to regulate weapons, which is backed up by the Supreme Court.
Yet even with all this your argument which is your most convincing is saved for last. First, you always dispute the legality of such regulation. Now as to this you never convince me that the dependent clause in the second amendment has no effect and I will never convince you that it has a limiting effect. The Court has for generations backed my position. Whether they felt that it dealt with military weapons and non-military weapons can be banned or the other way around or neither way, they still believe that it limits the RKBA. You're not going to change people's minds on this issue. This is basic to how they read the constitution.
Your second argument is even less convincing. Nobody who is not an activist on this issue researches how it applies to every law. That is not to say they don't research weapons. I remember many a night on my computer where I and others have gone to sites related to a description of weapons and prices and so on.
Your final argument is the most convincing, if you provide evidence to support it. People who never have shot or seen a weapon and some who have fear them. They know it only as a dangerous tool to be used only in the case of absolute necessity. People who have grown up with weapons know that when responsibly handled they can be tools that while dangerous are fun. First, I would suggest that you have to approach the debate knowing that your audience did not grow up with weapons and may have biases against them. Therefore, I would suggest you talk to them about how you use for what purposes and how you are responsible with them. Then, I would suggest you make the crime argument your main point. Like I said above, you're not going to convince moderates on the issue that the right is absolute and they don't care about the specifics with regards to the weapon. Lead with the crime thing. This is what they're worried about when they pass bans. Show them the evidence, if it exists, that they're wrong. The activists in gun control will reject, but you don't need to convince them. You need to convince the moderates.
With this suggestion, I will leave you because I obviously can't add anymore to the debate. Thank you, those of you who have tried to engage me as a person with a legitimate viewpoint. To those who reject and insult and so on, I say go ahead, but you won't get anywhere beyond angering people and making them reject your position even more.
Noah
Actually, they were National Guard (i.e. militia) by definition and Federal Code:
In Cuba they fought as "unmounted cavalry", their horses not making the trip from Tampa.
I, in fact, as a youth, served in an Atlantic City, NJ militia unit that saw service in the Spanish American War - the Morris Guards.
Actually, virtually all the Union Army consisted "militia" units raised by the States. For instance, the Irish Brigade, New York's "Fighting 69th", who suffered nearly 70% casualties in the Battle of Fredericksburg was a militia unit.
The "quotas" imposed on the States by the Federal government were "militia" quotas, hence the reference to the State names in virtually all the Union Regiments. The same system was used by the Confederacy. For instance, Virginia's 1st Brigade was raised from the "cadets" and staff from VMI. Uniforms, weapons and kits were either supplied by the militiaman, himself, or by the town or neighbor where their companies were raised. This created a supply nightmare, as various units carried different caliber weapons.
Aside: The "Fighting 69th" Irish Brigade become part of the 169th New York National Guard Regiment and was matched with the Alabama National Guard that was formed from the Alabama militia brigade that nearly anililated them in the "cornfield" at Fredericksburg, and a California National Guard Regiment to form the American "Rainbow Division", which was sent to France to fight the "Huns" in the "War to End Wars".
The "Continental Army" consisted of mostly New England militia units from 1775-77. During this time militia units captured Fort Ticonderoga, Crown Point, Fort Ann, and the town of St. John (Ethan Allen's Green Mountain Boys), and fought the Battles of Concord, Lexington, and Breed's before driving the Brits out of Boston! The Battle of Long Island was fought with mostly 10,000 militia troops, most from New York and also from Connecticut, Delaware and Maryland. The Battle of Harlem Heights was also fought with mostly militia troops. In the Battle of Pell's Point 750 militia troops from Marblehead, Massachusetts (The Marbleheaders) held off 3,000 British and Hessian Regulars allowing Washington and the Continental Army to retreat to upstate New York, saving the Revolution.
Virtually all the Continental Army "Regulars" started their service as Minutemen Militia. But for these Militia, the United States of America would not exist.
Miller was not "decided" - it was "remandated" to the Federal District Court to be "decided". Don't take my word for it, read the Opinion yourself: UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
Mr. Miller and friend did not spend one day in jail or pay one cent in fines as a result of being convicted of violatng the National Firearms Act of 1934. Those are the facts of the matter, regardless of what you claim "the law is". As for my "interpretation of Miller", it is not just mine but the also that of the majority of legal scholars in the US.
First, your "textual analysis" is all wet!
As you can see, your "textual analysis" is "Bogus". Next, you "structural analysis", that somehow the 2nd Amendment was a means of the Federal government to "regulate" - "the People's right to keep and bear".
As you can see, your "structural analysis" is as "Bogus" as your "textual analysis". Next, your "doctrinal analysis" of Supreme Court decisions is particular bad, to wit:
As you can see your "doctrinal analysis" does not hold water. Finally, let's look at your "prudentialism".
I knew facts are terrible things, but it is not my fault if "You can't handle the truth!"
Apparently my "ridiculous arguments and childishness" has borne fruit, as you now have changed your tune on the source of our rights. Now, you need understand that that "God given, unalienable rights" cannot never be "ceded".
When men come together and institute a government, they do so in order to "secure their rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (property)". They do not cede any of their rights, but their do cede a limited amount of "sovereignty" (a.k.a - "power and authority").
Once again, you insist on making "the People's Bill of RIGHTS" into some strange "government's Bill of POWERS". As long as "the People" exercise their "RIGHT to keep and bear Arms" in such a way as it does not harm another's RIGHTS, the government has NO basis to regulate that RIGHT. If I am incorrect, then please describe the justification for government to regulate "the People's right to keep and bear arms" in the absence of any wrong-doing. As stated in the amendment this right "shall not be infringed". I can live with that.
Unfortunately you know as much about "Assault Weapons" as you do about "RIGHTS".
The problem is that there is NO accepted definition of "assault weapon", unlike "Assaiult Rifle", "Submachne Gun", "Pistle", "Revolver", etc. In fact, in California, the definition (and ban) is a moving target, subject to change by mere Attorney General fiat.
The NG is not the militia. I am surprised that you would make that mistake. The NG is authorized under Congress' power to raise armies, not in the discipline and provision of the militia.
As for the Civil War. Congress authorized an army as opposed to calling forth the militia. Of course it isn't surprising that those who participated in the militia would subsequently enlist in the federal army. But there is a distinction here. After Shay and the Whiskey Rebellion, the militia as a functioning institution waned. The experience in the War of 1812 signaled the end of the militia as the dominant force for defense. For example:
Yes, but well-regulated militia doesn't mean under govt control.
Moreover, it's fairly easy to demonstrate that the restrictive interpretation doesn't actually come from the preamble. How? By changing the topic of the amendment and conceding the "govt control" interpretation of the preamble. The resulting amendment reads:
"Educated govt officials, being necessary to the effectiveness of govt, the right of the people to keep and bear books, shall not be infringed."
No one would suggest that the above allows any restrictions on book ownership.
The question is whether any of the definitions are actually relevant.
For example, AR-15 clones are included, but the Mini-14 isn't. These two guns shoot exactly the same bullet, using comparable mechanisms. Yes, the AR-15 looks like a M-16 (machine gun), but my Mom's car has the same body as a nascar race car and no one seems to confuse the two.
One of the listed characteristics is a bayonet mount. Precisely how is that relevant?
Another is a type of stock that helps many people shoot more accurately. Again - relevance?
One of the listed guns is a single-shot shotgun that has to be manually cocked, making it one of the slowest guns around. (Almost all single-shot shotguns designed in the last 100 years cock when the action is closed after loading the shell.) Its distinguishing characteristic is that it is black.
The listed handguns are larger than average. Relevance?
The legitimate assault weapons argument turns on whether these guns actually are different, which is a technical point, so if you can't defend it on those grounds.... (The AW thing is an interesting social hack.)
Suppose, for the sake of argument, that "assault weapons" aren't functionally different. What's the benefit of special restrictions? What's the purpose?
As someone who would like to try different kinds of gun control, the assault weapons laws/campaign are a huge problem. They tell gun owners that irrational things will happen.
Combine that with gun controllers' fetish for keeping measures that don't work and advocacy of measures that haven't ever worked and there's no way to make the "let's try it" argument for new ideas. (No, Noah, you haven't proposed/supported anything that is new or effective.)
The only rational conclusion is that gun controllers don't care about crime/violence, they just care about banning guns. And no, ignorance is no justification. If you're pushing a proposal, you're responsible for the consequences of said push.
Of course it is - both Constitutionally (the CiC of State National Guard Units is the State Government - until they are "called forth" into Federal service). Per Article I Section 8 and 10 - the only troops that the States may maintain are "militia". The State National Guard are organized according to the Militia Act of 1792:
and are defined as Militia in Title 10 of the US Code:
The National Guard is militia by all objective criteria.
Actually, as authorized by Congress in the Militia Act of 1792, President Abraham Lincoln "called forth the militia" as one of his first official acts on April 15, 1861. Congress, in 1862, premitted the President to set State Quotas under the Militia Act and for the first time allowed Blacks to participate in the militia. It wasn't until 1863 that first "draft" for Regular Army recruits took place after Congress authorized same that year:
If you compare the total Regular Army conscription with the total number of servicemembers and casualities for both Union and Confederate Forces, it pretty obvious that militia troops made up the vast majority of combatants for both sides:
Obviously the vast majority of troops on both sides had to have been militia.
The figures from the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, Mexican War, and the Spanish-American War:
also indicate a large proportion of militia (or National Guard) to Regular Army troops in those conflicts. Without the "militia" (or National Guard) the United States would never have existed, let alone making it to the millennium!
Benefit and Purpose:
Just like the Politically Correct "Speech Codes" that are found at most American Universities, which are designed to make "certain" minorities feel better by banishing "certain" types of "evil" speech - gun control laws like the "Assault Weapons Bans" (a.k.a. as the "evil-looking weapons bans") are designed to make "certain" minorities (hoplophobes - those with irrational fear of weapons) feel better by banishing "certain" types of "evil-looking" weapons.
The opening line of PERPICH v. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE:
Thus, anyone joining the "state" NG (arguably the 'militia') is also attached to the US NG (a department of the US Army) - see Title 32 USC. You can quote the Militia Act of 1792 until you are blue in the face. The simple and plain fact is that Act was superceded (by the very Title 10 section you quoted as well as TItle 32) and is no longer the operative policy of the United States.
I don't know if you are simply nostaligic for an era, or perhaps more accurately a myth, in which the brave yeoman-farmer valiantly defended his homestead, or if you have a latent distrust of our armed forces. Perhaps you subscribe to the nonsense of the "militia movement". I do not know. I do know that the militia ceased to be the basis of national defense following the War of 1812, and that today everyone who is a member of the NG, enlisted or commissioned, serves under the Dept of the Army. I also know that the "unorganized militia" has not been called to drill, let alone to service as militia, in my lifetime. Despite the laws still on the books, the militia - like the prohibition on quartering of soldiers (3rd Amdt) - just ain't relevant these days.
I am curious about one thing though - are you concerned by Bush's desire to strike the Posse Commitatus restriction on the military role in domestic affairs?
So, based on your source in 1898 they were State National Guard and therefore arguably the 'militia', by definition.
It would appear as though you were the real historic abuser. To my knowledge the Spanish-American War (the subject in question) took place before 1933 - thus making my position correct - that the State associated National Guard units, such as the Rough Riders, were in fact "militia". I rest my case! You're wrong, get over it!
In fact the so-called "myth" of course is a "fact" as those living on the "frontier" in America starting with Jamestown and Plymouth Rock colonies right up until the early 20th Century. Additionally, from 1776 up until the end of the Vietnam War, this country was well served by a citizen Army in all its major war. If you say otherwise it is you who is the "deconstructor" of our history.
As for trusting our armed forces, you are making way too much of my attempt to straighten out your cockeyed view of history. Personally, I believe that all citizens should serve their country in military service as a requisite for citizenship. If it were possile, I would prefer the Swiss-model for the US, I know our Founders felt that way. However, I realize that design cannot would for large maritime economy, particular one that is also a World Power. Additionally, since the quantum in military technology and the destructiveness of military systems demand a small professional military as we are currently building. I think our professional, all-volunteer military is great. There is none other even close to their moral, capabilities, and professionalism.
You are incorrect about the State militia, though, as they served well as the basis of our Army, up until WWI. Those are the real historic facts. I believe your problem is one of definition:
I have no problem with the above definitions. If you do, I can seen why your historic prospective of the US military is so skewed.
As for serving under the Commander-in-Chief, well the militia, when "called forth", serves under the President of the US and the military structure he set-up. They are still "citizen soldiers" and not "full time" soldiers.
You must be pretty young - in the early 1960s I was uniformed, armed and drilled with the Morris Guards, an irregular militia unit in New Jersey. I learned military courtesy, the manual of arms, march and maneuverer, marksmanship (with 03 Springfields), and uniform, kit and weapon maintenance. We staged field problems and maneuverer exercises. All our oficers and senior non-coms were WWII or Korean Vets and were elected. I earned the rank of Corporal before I left the organization to go to college '64.
It depends on what you mean by "domestic affairs" and "Posse comitatus".
Personally, I am not aware of any Bush proposal have the US Military suppliment any Sheriff as well armed and trained deputies. If he has such in mind, then I am against it.
Of course, if by "domestic affairs" you mean restoring order in situations like New Orleans following Katerina, then he would be merely carrying a completely Constitutional function the US Military has carried out since the Revolution.
If that is what you mean, I have no problem with it.
Alexander Hamilton waxed lyrical on the subject of Poss Comitatus in Federalist 29:
I find the connection with the militia most interesting, considering your disdain for them.
Finally, with regards to the "quarering of soldiers" the 3rd Amendment is not a "prohibition" to same, merely a understanding on its protocols in time of peace and war.
I understand that during Katerina, certain arrangements for quartering troops were necessary, so I would say that the 3rd Amendment is far from obsolete. However, when you take the recent Kelos decision into account, it would appear that the military could simply "take" any required accommodations under "eminent domain".
Hmmm! Okay, how much weight would you give to "PUBLIUS"?
Please note the use of "well-regulated militia". Obviously Hamilton believes that the "well-regulated militia" is a "well-trained militia" - one that has been "going through military exercises and evolutions" for such a long time as to "acquire the degree of perfection" in their use as to be a "well-regulated militia". Note that Hamilton has a problem with the "real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss" caused by devoting the necessary time to such training. If by "well-regulated", Hamilton meant what you state - "controlled", such would require hardly any time or effort on the part of the "great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens" - merely the Congress enacting the appropriate laws.
I am afraid that you, and anyone else who believes that "well-regulated" means "gun control" (other than the "gun control" required to hit your target) truly don't understand its meaning as it is used in the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution by James Madison and in Federalist #29 by "PUBLIUS" - Alexander Hamilton.
It does appear we have had a difference of opinion on militia vs. army. That our army is composed of citizen-soliders, does not in my mind, make it the militia as originally conceived by the Founders. A paid, professional army was a worrisome thing to them - not merely that it was staffed by foreign mercenaries. The English army, although supplemented by Hessians, was largely English. Thus, the 2-year limit on appropriations in the Constitution, and the very small manpower limit in authorization of the Army after the War of 1812.
Now, I do not consider the Army to become a militia simply because citizens volunteer to serve in it. Constitutionally, these are two distinct entities and I think it inappropriate to blur that. Congress raised the Rough Rider components as part of the Army - not militia (irrespective of who answered the call).
Indeed, the regiment was raised and recruited, it was not some pre-existing company of militia. You continually assume that the individuals that may have participated in a local militia company are still militia when they enlist in the Army. They are not - not prior to 1933 and certainly not now. The Fighting 69th are another good example. Their initial muster for the Civil War lasted 90 days, whereupon, the company retired to NY as militia and the members subsequent return to the field was under enlistment in the Union Army. It was the Union Army, not the various state militia, that persevered throughout the full execution of the war.
As for your experience with the Morris Guards, I daresay you overgeneralize from that, as I may be guilty of too. Although in my extended family, many have served in the armed forces, but I know of none that participated in militia drills. Just curious, was your drill actually a state-sponsored event, or was this really just a club get-together (you mentioned "irregulars")?
I merely say that the militia did not work as intended by the Founders, and that we have found a standing army (of citizen-soldiers) to be an effective defense and not a threat to liberty. I have no disdain for the militia - except for those who run around outside of the authority of civil govt, the so-called "militia movement". They were/are nothing but a bunch of crack-pots.